Praise and Worship choruses during Mass

[Sarabande]

I haven’t heard a person yet on CAF not express a love or appreciation for classical, traditional organ, chant, motets, etc. We all appear to worship in a diverse collection of parishes, ranging from large urban to small rural, liberal to conservative. Yet, we all value this music–music in line with the mind and desires of the Church.

Understanding why P&W music has crept in, and understanding why traditional music is creeping out, what can we do to fix this?

Do we encourage young piano players to play at Mass?

Do we encourage young piano players to learn organ?

Do we encourage chant in our parishes?

How proactive are we?

My predecessor at the Lutheran Church I serve as organist for was a high school student who could just handle the worship on piano. When she told her pastor of her college plans, the congregation begged that the pastor and the parish council do anything and everything to find someone who could play organ again, because they missed it.

They hired me. I can play. Not great, but it’s sufficient for their needs.

But, who replaces me when I’m old? Who replaces me in five years if something changes in my life where I can’t play for them?

Why didn’t they encourage and help their high school student to learn organ? Instead, they suffered through her on piano, glad to have someone playing the hymns, but frustrated because she was playing them on the piano.

The organist at our Methodist church is getting old too. Who’s going to replace her? I can’t. I already have two church gigs.

The Episcopal Church down the road is in the same boat.

We’re letting our churches get away with P&W music because it’s “easy.”

We’re not encouraging the investment.

We all need to be proactive.

This is one of the wisest comments I’ve read on this thread and I absolutely agree.

Your questions are the same that my older colleagues in their 40s and 50s are asking right now. I know a couple of organists in their 20s and 30s, but we’re not encouraging the young like we should.

You’re right… people have taken the easy way out. And when there is talk in the parishes for a comeback to traditional music, for some it’s usually just lip service even though you do have the qualified people there wanting to promote it. Or it’s the money. Or it’s low standards. (If you want to turn someone off totally on any instrument, especially on the organ, just get an incompetant on the bench.)

Everything you said, MusicMan should be something looked at more closely in every parish and with every individual who is concerned about it. Thank you!

 

[jfallaw]

thank you music man. the way i see it, praise and worship is not a bad thing. the question we shuld ask ourselves is why ppl want to hear praise and worship during mass.

Yes the mass is a solemn service, but the sole purpose of the mass is communicating with God isnt it? Some ppl have the belief that when they sing hymns, they re more connected to God, while some believe that praise and worship song does it for them. like music man said, so long as they re theologically sound.

Personally, i enjoy both, depending on my mood. sometimes am at mass and i just want to hear hymns like '‘how great thou ar’'etc, and some times i just feel so spiritually lifted i want to to sing a praise song. what we should be particular about is if we feel in our hearts that these songs are ok with God.After all it is said that God loves music, but we re nt even sure what his favorite kind of music is. so who re we to judge or decide? Just do what u think is right.hymns or praise and worship.

I agree. I honestly have a problem with the very term, “Praise and Worship.” “Praise” and “Worship” are two totally different things. When the Bible speaks of Praise, it often speaks of strings, cymbals, horns, and dancing. But when it speaks of Worship, it speaks of humbleness, contrition, awe and reverence. I am as much in favor of Praise as I am of Worship, but I believe they should be kept separate.

 

[mullenpm]

Did anyone watch the Daily Mass on EWTN last week (forget which day it was) where a violinist accompanied the organ on some hymns and also played solo at times.

It was so beautiful it brought tears to my eyes (and I don’t know one note from another).

EWTN’s choir is exemplary and the cantor has a very unique voice.

You won’t find any rock tunes on EWTN’s Daily Mass. :bowdown2: :harp:

 

[tonia]

There is one important factor to consider: The Mass has to be a pleasing sacrifice to God. From the folks advocating Praise and Worship, I haven’t seen any reference to the fact that the Mass is a sacrifice. Praise and Worship music works when the Sacrifice is not involved, hence in the Protestant ecclesial communities.

We, on the other hand, have the Holy Sacrifice. The veil between space and time is lifted and we are back in the Upper Room, at Calvary and at the tomb. Praise and Worship music is not compatible with this, especially the manner in which it is played.

In my prvevious post, I alluded to remarks made by Archbishop Malcolm Rajith, the Secretary to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. His words are very telling.

Rhythm, style and order belong to the art of celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This expresses the role of beauty. He lamented the fact that the word “sacrifice” is not used as often as it should be. He noted that sometimes we fall into horizontalism in the arts when we forget about the divine. When we make the liturgy “man-centered” then we have failed to have a proper understanding of ars celebrandi as it relates to active participation. This active participation is not confined to external participation. He said that in recent times (and this is the line of the conference) that “Wall Street moved into the sanctuary.”

This means that we have turned it into a gathering and a coming together that has little to no relationship to the divine mystery unfolding before us. This makes us forget that we are not the actors of the liturgy. The real actor in the liturgy is God, Himself.

That is what the Praise and Worship advocates do not take into consideration.

Yes the mass is a sacrifice, but there is no where it says that when offering sacrifice to God you can not praise him. for your information, worship songs are usually slow and very uplifting. All am trying to say is that we should open our hearts and minds. God never gavem us a tablet of hymns to sing to him. Let me ask you a question… what if praise and worship songs were originally sung at mass and hymns are the in thing now? its all a question of what u are used to. religion is not strictly about dogma but feeling right with your god and connecting with him in a special way. Believe me if Gospel jazz makes me feel connected to God then thats what am going to listen to irrespective of what any one feel, because you know what, on judgement day its going to be me and God no other person.Lets all strive to have a personal relationship with God,and in doing that,he will surely lead us.Every opinion we are giing here are all man made, no one can quote God saying his song preference when offering sacrifices, at work, in the shower on the road any where.

 

[Cat]

Yes the mass is a sacrifice, but there is no where it says that when offering sacrifice to God you can not praise him. for your information, worship songs are usually slow and very uplifting. All am trying to say is that we should open our hearts and minds. God never gavem us a tablet of hymns to sing to him. Let me ask you a question… what if praise and worship songs were originally sung at mass and hymns are the in thing now? its all a question of what u are used to. religion is not strictly about dogma but feeling right with your god and connecting with him in a special way. Believe me if Gospel jazz makes me feel connected to God then thats what am going to listen to irrespective of what any one feel, because you know what, on judgement day its going to be me and God no other person.Lets all strive to have a personal relationship with God,and in doing that,he will surely lead us.Every opinion we are giing here are all man made, no one can quote God saying his song preference when offering sacrifices, at work, in the shower on the road any where.

Thank you for this. Much of what is being presented above is pure opinion. benedictgal, even your offering of comments from the conference you attended is your interpretation of what the speaker said. He didn’t condemn or forbid any style. He merely called for reverence and holiness. To say that Praise and Worship songs are not reverent and conducive to holiness is opinion.

BTW, many Praise and Worship choruses have verses, too. So they aren’t just choruses. Often, the verses are much “heavier” than the chorus, just as the verses of hymns are often heavier than choruses.

And I agree with the poster quoted above–most of the praise and worship songs that I know are stately and solemn, not rowdy. If people hear here lounge music in them, that’s their problem. Maybe they shouldn’t go into lounges. (Many Protestants don’t, so they don’t associate these songs with “lounge music” because they don’t know what “lounge music” is.)

In fact, one of my gripes with Praise and Worship songs when I was Protestant is that they dragged along as the song leader became more ecstatic. I like a song with a good, strong beat, like “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name.” That particular hymn is a waltz, so it’s especially rhythmic and dance-y. Lots of fun to sing.

One of the problems with singing hymns in a foreign language, or hymns that use old-fashioned language that we don’t understand anymore is that we forget about the Lord and struggle on the words trying to figure out what certain flowery phrases mean. Sometimes we can even laugh at words that we no longer use in conversation.

In Letters to Malcom, C.S. Lewis commends the “sameness” of the Liturgy because it helps us to truly worship the Lord. The Orthodox recommend the use of the very simple “Jesus Prayer,” repeated constantly. I would suggest that one value of simpler, repetitious songs and hymns is that just like the Liturgy and simple prayers like the Jesus Prayer, they can help us to forget about ourselves and enter into the true worship, which is what the Holy Mass is.

Here is an example of a slow and reflective song that calls for us to worship Him. I see nothing in this song that would be disrespectful of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and much that would help believers to “forget about themselves” and enter into worship of Our Lord. The song ascribes to Jesus His worth, which is what worship is. To me, this would be a fairly good processional hymn–it would help people make the transition from the secular to the sacred. It is a fairly simple song to sing, with a melody that builds and then wanes as we utter the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord. (BTW, I never have been a “hand-raiser” even as a Protestant, so you don’t have to lift up holy hands in the song. But if you did, there’s nothing wrong with it during a song–the words to this verse are straight out of the New Testament.)

We are gathered in this place to magnify His name and worship Him.
We are gathered in this place to magnify His name and worship Him.
We are gathered in this place to magnify His name and worship Christ
our Lord,worship Him,Jesus Christ,our lord.

Let’s just lift up holy hands and magnify His name and and worship Him.
Let’s just lift up holy hands and magnify His name and worship Him.
Let’s just lift up holy hands and magnify His name and worship Christ our
Lord,worship Him,Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let’s forget about ourselves and concentrate on Him and worship Him.
Let’s forget about ourselves and concentrate on Him and worship Him.
Let’s forget about ourselves and concentrate on Him and worship Christ
the Lord,worship him Jesus Christ the Lord.

Again, it’s just a matter of opinion.

 

[Cat]

I agree. I honestly have a problem with the very term, “Praise and Worship.” “Praise” and “Worship” are two totally different things. When the Bible speaks of Praise, it often speaks of strings, cymbals, horns, and dancing. But when it speaks of Worship, it speaks of humbleness, contrition, awe and reverence. I am as much in favor of Praise as I am of Worship, but I believe they should be kept separate.

You don’t think that P and W writers understand this difference?

It seems to me that since the Bible speaks of both, this is justification for Christians to sing both kinds of music in the Holy Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

Cat,. one of the shadows that the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist noted was the music used at Youth Masses. They found this to be problematic. And, just what kind of music is being used at Youth Masses? Praise and Worship is the genre.

Just because the Secretary to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments didn’t spell it out, that doesn’t mean that he didn’t know what I was addressing. He is very well aware of the problems that exist with that particular genre. That is why he told me that the forthcoming document from the Holy See will take care of that matter.

I also sat with a noted musician who also happens to be a priest. He told me that the Praise and Worship music was very problematic and he had banned it from his parish. He also agreed that this particular genre is incompatible with the Holy Sacrifice because it lacks the solemnity, beauty and dignity that are intrinsic to this sacred liturgy. By the way, he also teaches sacred music and is a renowned authority on the matter.

The fact that the seminarians reacted so positively to the restoration of solemnity, dignity and beauty that the Secretary noted indicates to me that they will be the ones to make this happen when they become priests.

Remember, too, that the other big caveat with the P&W genre is the fact that secular instruments such as drums, electric guitars, bass guitars and the like are used. These are incompatible with the Mass because they are used in the secular world for profane music. I like to listen to Van Halen. That doesn’t mean I want Eddie playing his guitar during Mass. I love Duran Duran. But, Nick Rhodes and his synthesizer will not work at Mass.

Now, regarding “man-made” opinions, might I remind the poster who made that comment that the Church has every authority to regulate what goes into and cannot go into the Holy Sacrifice. This authority comes directly from Jesus, Himself, when He gave Peter the authority to bind and loose. Peter just happens to be the Holy Father. Pope Benedict is doing a pretty swell job of binding and loosening things in matters concerning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Remember what he noted in Sacramentum Caritatis:

The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129).

This is where the forthcoming document from the Holy See comes into play. We will finally get some solid instruction on appropriate liturgical music. These instructions are not so much man-made as they are made from an authority who is excersising the authority granted him directly by Jesus.

 

[Aramis]

God never gavem us a tablet of hymns to sing to him.

Sorry, wrong, try again. Our bible still contains the Jewish Hymnal… the Book of Psalms.

Nowhere can I see God limiting us to those songs, but those songs are, according to the council that set the canon, divinely inspired works.

 

[benedictgal]

Sorry, wrong, try again. Our bible still contains the Jewish Hymnal… the Book of Psalms.

Nowhere can I see God limiting us to those songs, but those songs are, according to the council that set the canon, divinely inspired works.

And the psalms were definitely chanted during the morning prayer we had at the conference (which was presided over by Archbishop Rajith). Incidentally, there was no musical accompanyment while we were chanting (in English, by the way). There were also canticles from Isaiah as well as Zacchariah’s hymn of praise to God over the birth of St. John the Baptist.

The hymn to the Blessd Mother was also chanted.

 

[tonia]

Oh!!! thank you so much!!
i am soo feeling you. finall someone understands.
I hope everyone reads this post cos we have a lot to learn from it.
Thanks again.

Thank you for this. Much of what is being presented above is pure opinion. benedictgal, even your offering of comments from the conference you attended is your interpretation of what the speaker said. He didn’t condemn or forbid any style. He merely called for reverence and holiness. To say that Praise and Worship songs are not reverent and conducive to holiness is opinion.

BTW, many Praise and Worship choruses have verses, too. So they aren’t just choruses. Often, the verses are much “heavier” than the chorus, just as the verses of hymns are often heavier than choruses.

And I agree with the poster quoted above–most of the praise and worship songs that I know are stately and solemn, not rowdy. If people hear here lounge music in them, that’s their problem. Maybe they shouldn’t go into lounges. (Many Protestants don’t, so they don’t associate these songs with “lounge music” because they don’t know what “lounge music” is.)

In fact, one of my gripes with Praise and Worship songs when I was Protestant is that they dragged along as the song leader became more ecstatic. I like a song with a good, strong beat, like “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name.” That particular hymn is a waltz, so it’s especially rhythmic and dance-y. Lots of fun to sing.

One of the problems with singing hymns in a foreign language, or hymns that use old-fashioned language that we don’t understand anymore is that we forget about the Lord and struggle on the words trying to figure out what certain flowery phrases mean. Sometimes we can even laugh at words that we no longer use in conversation.

In Letters to Malcom, C.S. Lewis commends the “sameness” of the Liturgy because it helps us to truly worship the Lord. The Orthodox recommend the use of the very simple “Jesus Prayer,” repeated constantly. I would suggest that one value of simpler, repetitious songs and hymns is that just like the Liturgy and simple prayers like the Jesus Prayer, they can help us to forget about ourselves and enter into the true worship, which is what the Holy Mass is.

Here is an example of a slow and reflective song that calls for us to worship Him. I see nothing in this song that would be disrespectful of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and much that would help believers to “forget about themselves” and enter into worship of Our Lord. The song ascribes to Jesus His worth, which is what worship is. To me, this would be a fairly good processional hymn–it would help people make the transition from the secular to the sacred. It is a fairly simple song to sing, with a melody that builds and then wanes as we utter the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord. (BTW, I never have been a “hand-raiser” even as a Protestant, so you don’t have to lift up holy hands in the song. But if you did, there’s nothing wrong with it during a song–the words to this verse are straight out of the New Testament.)

We are gathered in this place to magnify His name and worship Him.
We are gathered in this place to magnify His name and worship Him.
We are gathered in this place to magnify His name and worship Christ
our Lord,worship Him,Jesus Christ,our lord.

Let’s just lift up holy hands and magnify His name and and worship Him.
Let’s just lift up holy hands and magnify His name and worship Him.
Let’s just lift up holy hands and magnify His name and worship Christ our
Lord,worship Him,Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let’s forget about ourselves and concentrate on Him and worship Him.
Let’s forget about ourselves and concentrate on Him and worship Him.
Let’s forget about ourselves and concentrate on Him and worship Christ
the Lord,worship him Jesus Christ the Lord.

Again, it’s just a matter of opinion.

 

[tonia]

Loke you said, a council.
Did you know that most of the praise and worship songs are from the psalms? Like i said earlier, what if praise and worship was what the council approved and hymns are just the in thing? what will ur opinion be then? Human beings are the ones giving the rules.God inspired the words, not how they should be sung. I dont see music notes attached to these words.

Have you ever heard the jews sing? Does it sound like any thing you know or listen to? if we are to go by jewish hymnals believe me,thats not your idea of hymns.

Sorry, wrong, try again. Our bible still contains the Jewish Hymnal… the Book of Psalms.

Nowhere can I see God limiting us to those songs, but those songs are, according to the council that set the canon, divinely inspired works.

 

[benedictgal]

Part of the problem with the whole P&W is that it has very lttle to do with the sacred, with solemnity and with something that is beyond ourselves. I respectfully disagree with the Agnus Dei version of Michael W. Smith. He is a protestant and the song just doesn’t bide well with what is happening at the Mass.

We need to remember that we are not the only ones assisting at Mass, something that P&W fails to take into account. The music isn’t just about us. The Mass isn’t just about us. We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, the Communion of Saints, something that I had mentioned in other posts and in other threads. ]

The music needs to have an element of the divine. It’s not about making us feel good. It needs to draw us into the deep, holy and sacred mysteries that are unfolding before us at every Mass. P&W just doesn’t do that. It focus on what we are doing, making us the actors in worship. God is the one acting here. We are the ones who need to be assimilated into the mystery of the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Christ.

 

[benedictgal]

Loke you said, a council.
Did you know that most of the praise and worship songs are from the psalms? Like i said earlier, what if praise and worship was what the council approved and hymns are just the in thing? what will ur opinion be then? Human beings are the ones giving the rules.God inspired the words, not how they should be sung. I dont see music notes attached to these words.

Have you ever heard the jews sing? Does it sound like any thing you know or listen to? if we are to go by jewish hymnals believe me,thats not your idea of hymns.

Inasmuch as these songs are derived from the psalms, their delivery, setting and musical instrumentation are not consistent with what the Church teaches. This comes from the document Musicam Sacram:

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44

Any musical instrument permitted in divine worship should be used in such a way that it meets the needs of the liturgical celebration, and is in the interests both of the beauty of worship and the edification of the faithful.

The settings are very problematic and do not, apparently, conform to what Musicam Sacram has instructed, as I read it. It seems that others have concurred, especially the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist who found that the music used at Youth Masses was problematic. .

Have you read what Pope Beneidict wrote regarding genre? This might help you to understand what the problem is behind this particular genre:

Then there are two developments in music itself that have their origins primarily in the West but that for a long time have affected the whole of mankind in the world culture that is being formed. Modern so-called “classical” music has maneuvered itself, with some exceptions, into an elitist ghetto, which only specialists may enter – and even they do so with what may sometimes be mixed feelings. The music of the masses has broken loose from this and treads a very different path.

On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.

The settings for the P&W genre certainly fall under both categories. In addition, Pope Benedict XVI is, himself, a musician, a classically trained musician. His brother, Rev. Msgr. Georg Ratzinger, served as the choir master for the Regensberg Cathedral choir. Therefore, Pope Benedict XVI is very well aware of what constitutes geneuine liturgical music.

Furthermore, Pope John Paul II, wrote that there were problems with the state of music used for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

. In following the course of the teachings of Saint Pius X and of the Second Vatican Council, it is above all necessary to emphasize that music destined for the sacred rites must have as its point of reference sanctity: it in fact “will be the more holy the more closely it is united to the liturgical action”. Precisely because of this, “not all that which stands outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross the threshold”, sagely affirmed my venerated Predecessor Paul VI, commenting upon a decree of the Council of Trent and clarified that “if it does not at once possess the sense of prayer, of dignity and beauty, music – instrumental and vocal – by this fact is precluded from admission into the sacred and religious realm”.

On the other hand, the category of “sacred music” today has undergone such a broadening of meaning as to include repertoire that cannot enter into the celebration without violating the spirit and the norms of the Liturgy itself.

In other words, the music used for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not some free form of experiemtation. The Mass is not our own personal property to do with as we wish. The Holy See, acting under the authority of no less than the Holy Father, himself, sets forth the guidelines. The guidelines for sacred music will be forthcoming.

 

[Aramis]

Loke you said, a council.
Did you know that most of the praise and worship songs are from the psalms? Like i said earlier, what if praise and worship was what the council approved and hymns are just the in thing? what will ur opinion be then? Human beings are the ones giving the rules.God inspired the words, not how they should be sung. I dont see music notes attached to these words.

Have you ever heard the jews sing? Does it sound like any thing you know or listen to? if we are to go by jewish hymnals believe me,thats not your idea of hymns.

Yes, I have. It’s very similar to what I hear and sing every sunday, and those weekdays I make it to the Divine Liturgy.

 

[tonia]

you keep saying divinely inspired. Thats still human opinion.Please tell me there are ttached to the psalms.Also, because a council ‘‘divinely inspires’’ an idea does not mean that is the ONLY way you can connect with your God. Are you saying God doesnt like worship songs? Please open your mind, cos thats the only way the spirit of God can abide in you. Dont say because protestants sing praise and worship then its trash to your ears. its things like this that cause religious wars.

Sorry, wrong, try again. Our bible still contains the Jewish Hymnal… the Book of Psalms.

Nowhere can I see God limiting us to those songs, but those songs are, according to the council that set the canon, divinely inspired works.

 

[tonia]

You seem not to have ur own opinion about all this. you keep quoting what this person, dat father, this pope said. ure forgetting that’s their own view. i believe the catholic church has evolved from the era of U MUST, to THIS IS A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOU AND GOD.I want to know what you think, not people’s opinion. I believe strongly in the catholic faith but i also believe that i have a direct connection with God and as such, when i feel inspired about something or when God speaks to me, I listen to Him, not human opinion. so what does god tell u?

Inasmuch as these songs are derived from the psalms, their delivery, setting and musical instrumentation are not consistent with what the Church teaches. This comes from the document Musicam Sacram:

The settings are very problematic and do not, apparently, conform to what Musicam Sacram has instructed, as I read it. It seems that others have concurred, especially the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist who found that the music used at Youth Masses was problematic. .

Have you read what Pope Beneidict wrote regarding genre? This might help you to understand what the problem is behind this particular genre:

The settings for the P&W genre certainly fall under both categories. In addition, Pope Benedict XVI is, himself, a musician, a classically trained musician. His brother, Rev. Msgr. Georg Ratzinger, served as the choir master for the Regensberg Cathedral choir. Therefore, Pope Benedict XVI is very well aware of what constitutes geneuine liturgical music.

Furthermore, Pope John Paul II, wrote that there were problems with the state of music used for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

In other words, the music used for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not some free form of experiemtation. The Mass is not our own personal property to do with as we wish. The Holy See, acting under the authority of no less than the Holy Father, himself, sets forth the guidelines. The guidelines for sacred music will be forthcoming.

 

[benedictgal]

you keep saying divinely inspired. Thats still human opinion.Please tell me there are ttached to the psalms.Also, because a council ‘‘divinely inspires’’ an idea does not mean that is the ONLY way you can connect with your God. Are you saying God doesnt like worship songs? Please open your mind, cos thats the only way the spirit of God can abide in you. Dont say because protestants sing praise and worship then its trash to your ears. its things like this that cause religious wars.

Tonia, the Catholic Church is a divine institution established by God, but, operated by man. The Church derives her authority directly from her Divine Spouse, Jesus Christ, who directly conferred that same authority in the person of St. Peter and his successors, the Popes, as referenced in St. Matthew’s gospel account. St. Matthew also records the other apostles and their successors, the bishops, as having a share in that authority.

The Holy Father speaks with the authority that Christ, Himself, conferred on him through St. Peter. As Catholics, we are bound to obey whatever norms and rulings set forth by the Holy See.

Therefore, it does pertain to the Holy See to establish the norms set forth for the proper, liturgical worship of the Triune God.

Now, if you read Exodus, Deuteronomy and even parts of Leviticus, you will find that God, Himself, was very direct as to how He wanted Ancient Israel to worship Him. He laid down the specifics, right down to the minutest detail and ordered that none of what he ordained be deviated from where worship was concerned. He was the one who set forth the first liturgical norms adn asked Moses to instruct Aaron and his successors to carry them out.

Tonia, the Church is the New Israel. Jesus instituted the Holy Eucharist, but, he entrusted St. Peter and his successors with the task of carrying this out. This includes establishing regulations for the Sacred Liturgy.

Remember, too, that this sacrifice has to be pleasing and acceptable. It’s not about us, it’s about Him. Cain and Abel both offered sacrifices to God. God found Abel’s more acceptable than Cain’s. When the priest prays EP 1, he calls to mind the acceptability of Abel’s sacrifice.

P&W is not compatible with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass because the genre was never meant to be. It derives from the Protestant form of worship which only has the Word but does not have the sacrifice.

Now, we don’t worship in a vaccuum. The Mass we attend must always be in communion with the Universal Church. Yes, we believe that we need to have a personal friendship with Christ. However, we are not in this by ourselves. It’s not me and Jesus and everyone else stands alone. We are members of the Body of Christ, which is His Church. That is why we need to have an individual and a corporate relationship with the Lord.

Now, if you choose to pray privately and use P&W music, that is your choice, much like if I want to pray the Liturgy of the Hours or the Rosary on my own, that is my choice. But, as far as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the P&W genre are concerned, the two are not compatible.

 

[snhs]

religion is not strictly about dogma but feeling right with your god and connecting with him in a special way. Believe me if Gospel jazz makes me feel connected to God then thats what am going to listen to irrespective of what any one feel, because you know what, on judgement day its going to be me and God no other person.Lets all strive to have a personal relationship with God,and in doing that,he will surely lead us.Every opinion we are giing here are all man made, no one can quote God saying his song preference when offering sacrifices, at work, in the shower on the road any where.

Sure, so those people who feel right about having an abortion, or interrupting the Gospel, a Homily or any part of Mass are a okay, so long as they ‘feel’ right about it, right?

Can you point out where in the Bible we have the words ‘you shall not conduct embryonic stem cell research’? I don’t think it’s in there explicitly, but the Church has wisely realised that when the Bible speaks of the sanctity of human life it refers to that life at all stages including those at an embryonic level. Similarly the Church has realised that there are some things which are and are not appropriate for Mass. The Church has the authority to take those decisions, if you disagree with them fine, if individual Priests, Bishops or groups of Bishops disagree with them then fine. But it is the will of the Church, of the Bride of Christ, which matters when it comes to the conduct of Mass.

If listening to Gospel Jazz, Death Metal or whatever other genre you may care to name makes you or Cat feel connected to God then by all means listen to it, at home, in the car, on the radio, at work, whatever. But when it comes to the Mass have the courtesy to respect what the Church has decided, and the vast majority of Catholics who are quite happy to follow the will Church of Christ when it comes to musical genres rather than someone else’s view on their relationship with God and what it may or may not tell them about music suitable during the Mass.

so what does god tell u?

God tells us that the Church under Peter has the authority to bind and loose. Those of a more self centered disposition would do well to remember that, the Church can make a decision under the authority given to it by Our Lord himself. If it doesn’t have the authority to determine what is or isn’t acceptable in the Mass then what does it have jurisdiction over?

 

[FrDavid96]

Dear friends,

Here’s the bottom line:
The Holy See expects that the conference of bishops for each region/nation will approve a list of hymns suitable for the Mass (and I presume it would need the recognitio of the Holy See as well)

The US bishops conference has yet to do this. I am not questioning their motivation, their judgment or their competence–not in any way. I am merely stating the fact that they have not done it.

This is within the competence of the bishops conference and the local ordinary (and the pastor working within their guidelines); not the music publishers, associations of musicians, or indeed anyone else.

Since we do not have such a list, none of us can say definitively what is or is not appropriate for the Mass. We can give some examples in either extreme, and we can share our thoughts about what should be on the list. We can discuss Church teaching as to what kind of music is appropriate. Let us keep in mind that it is not our own sentiments that determine this, but the authentic teachings of the Church–and with regard to music, there is ample material with which to work.

It certainly seems that at some point in the relatively near future, the USCCB will provide such a list. I say only that it seems to be the case.

Once that list comes out, no doubt there will be those who are disappointed that some of their “favorite” songs will be eliminated (or edited), and no doubt some will be disappointed that certain songs have been included. I daresay I will find myself in the later category.

We all have to prepare ourselves to accept the decision of the USCCB. That does’t mean we will be required to sing what we don’t like. But we will have to accept their ultimate decision.

 

[benedictgal]

Dear friends,

Here’s the bottom line:
The Holy See expects that the conference of bishops for each region/nation will approve a list of hymns suitable for the Mass (and I presume it would need the recognitio of the Holy See as well)

The US bishops conference has yet to do this. I am not questioning their motivation, their judgment or their competence–not in any way. I am merely stating the fact that they have not done it.

This is within the competence of the bishops conference and the local ordinary (and the pastor working within their guidelines); not the music publishers, associations of musicians, or indeed anyone else.

Since we do not have such a list, none of us can say definitively what is or is not appropriate for the Mass. We can give some examples in either extreme, and we can share our thoughts about what should be on the list. We can discuss Church teaching as to what kind of music is appropriate. Let us keep in mind that it is not our own sentiments that determine this, but the authentic teachings of the Church–and with regard to music, there is ample material with which to work.

It certainly seems that at some point in the relatively near future, the USCCB will provide such a list. I say only that it seems to be the case.

Once that list comes out, no doubt there will be those who are disappointed that some of their “favorite” songs will be eliminated (or edited), and no doubt some will be disappointed that certain songs have been included. I daresay I will find myself in the later category.

We all have to prepare ourselves to accept the decision of the USCCB. That does’t mean we will be required to sing what we don’t like. But we will have to accept their ultimate decision.

Of course, I, for one, am also awaiting the document that Archbishop Rajith told me was forthcoming from the Holy See with regard to Sacred Music. Given the fact that the Holy Father has already established an office for Sacred Music, I am anxious as to what this document will have. Of course, given the fact that it will come from the Holy Father, through the CDWDS, I suspect that some of it will incorporate what he has already said as Joseph Ratzinger. Bear in mind that much of what he wrote about before he became pope is already coming to pass now that he is the Supreme Pontiff.

Yes, the USCCB was supposed to have come out with this document, per the guidelines of Liturgiam Authenticam. In fact, they were given a five-year deadline, which expired last year. Unfortunately, Sing to the Lord did not pass with the necessary votes required for submission to the Holy See for recognitio…

My gut tells me that this forthcoming document from the Holy See will serve to clean up a lot of what is happening today with the issue of music and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.