Praise and Worship choruses during Mass

[snhs]

No organists. The few we have left are getting older and beginning to suffer from debilitating disorders that make it hard for them to play at all. One organist told me that many people are forced to have a pianist or no music at all for their FUNERAL Mass because there just aren’t enough organists around. Sad.

And there are no replacements. I’m very involved with youth music in our city, and I don’t know of one organ student. The organists I know don’t know of any students in the area. And they tell me that Protestant, Catholic, and secular universities are dismantling their organ programs because there are no applicants.

I can’t even imagine the people singing Gregorian chant. It is totally outside of my brain ability to imagine this. I can just as easily imagine Star Trek transporters that eliminate the need for cars.

…

Only a few cantors that I have played for are capable of singing Gregorian chant. Most are not. I appreciate their willingness to sing at all. Many times I end up playing a Mass no cantor at all. Not a good thing.

I am shaking my head here as I read what many of you say about music. I can’t imagine Gregorian chant, organ music. Maybe hymns. Frankly, I’m beginning to wonder about the folk songs of Haugen and Haas, too. No one wants to sing any of it.

Where will the musicians come from and who will train them and how will the people learn these things of which you speak? I’m not being facetious. I’m truly shaking my head and wondering where you all live that these things are happening. I can’t imagine it. How can you have this kind of music with no musicians available?

Will they be paid well? I can see that perhaps if the Catholic Church is willing to start paying organists, that we might just attract the few that are still left. But what happens when they die or retire?

Same for cantors–they aren’t paid right now (in our parishes). Will they be paid for doing chants in a foreign language? I personally don’t think that anyone will be willing to try this–they don’t want to try traditional music, let alone something like chant.

I’m rehearsal accompanist for the Mozart Requiem. Out of the entire choir, not one person knows any Latin. The conductor is giving people the pronunciation, but he is not absolutely certain of all the pronunciations.

Not one person in a CHOIR knows Latin. So how will Gregorian chant be done? With a karoake machine that feeds phonetic pronunciations of the words to the cantor?

…

I just don’t see how you all have these kinds of music and we are lucky to have any kind of music. I wonder if it’s because of the nearby proximity of Willowcreek and several of its church plants?

Could you explain what you define an organist as? We have organists in my Parish but very few of them have received any training to become organists, mostly they are piano players/teachers etc. The main manual keyboard on an organ is identical to that of a piano, it isn’t rocket science to put it on a generic setting and play it.

Do you know of any piano students? I’m guessing there are at least a few. Honestly have you never heard of transferable skills? My main instrument is flute, but I’ve never went around saying I can’t play a bass flute or a piccolo just because the sound is slightly different and the keys have different sizes.

You might need to get used to it, certainly if the Vatican decides to dispose of the “dreck” on a universal level it can only be good for the prospects of Gregorian Chant being restored to its proper place in the Church’s Liturgy.

I’m fairly certain all of them are capable of it, they can sing right? Gregorian Chant is no more difficult to grasp than any other genre of music, kids of nursery and early primary age have managed it in the past. You can even get it printed in modern stave notation if they can’t be bothered with the traditional notation.

But if it had retained it’s rightful place in the Liturgy there would be no question of needing to imagine it because you’d probably hear at least some of it on a regular basis. We manage to learn hymns during the Mass without much bother, often we don’t need a professional cantor or choir to do so. There is no reason why the same can’t be done with Gregorian Chant, and if some struggle with the words being in Latin then there’s no reason why it can’t be written phonetically alongside an English translation.

I don’t see a particularly convincing reason for paying people to come to Mass on a Sunday. If it’s a wedding/funeral etc then fine, but otherwise why should they be paid anymore than the Altar servers or passkeepers? Obviously it may be slightly different if it’s a Cathedral or a large Church big enough to justify a full time/part time Music Director, or where they couldn’t be reasonably expected to carry out the function while holding down a regular job.

That is of course one of the problems of Latin not being heard in the Mass, hopefully over time it will correct itself. Until then assuming the cantors are able to read phonetically they can do that.

Most Parishes don’t. That doesn’t mean they are not capable of having it. The kind of ‘problems’ you raise are exactly the same kind of questions people have raised in the past to block the implementation of other decisions. I’m not going to try to say that is your intention because they are legitimate questions, but they also have a fairly simple solution to them.

 

[Phemie]

Could you explain what you define an organist as? We have organists in my Parish but very few of them have received any training to become organists, mostly they are piano players/teachers etc. The main manual keyboard on an organ is identical to that of a piano, it isn’t rocket science to put it on a generic setting and play it.

There are organists and then there are people who play the organ. They aren’t the same thing. Just because someone knows how to play the piano doesn’t mean they can sit at the organ and do that instrument justice.

 

[Lepanto]

There are organists and then there are people who play the organ. They aren’t the same thing. Just because someone knows how to play the piano doesn’t mean they can sit at the organ and do that instrument justice.

Well, I know pianists who don’t do pianos justice.

 

[sharmin]

Just a quick question. Someone mentioned that Latin should still be heard in Churches today. I am wondering why. I don’t recall the apostles worshipping in Latin (although I may be mistaken). I can understand if some PREFER Latin for a sense of tradition, but certainly I cannot see any biblical basis for requiring it. Can someone explain this to me?

 

[Cat]

The first two paragraphs demonstrate a very flawed and incomplete knowledge of the organ and the piano.

I have played piano for almost 45 years, and I have many friends who play piano and organ professionally. Almost all of them would shake their heads over your suggestions.

The piano and organ are two entirely different instruments. The keyboard looks the same–that’s the end of the simliarities between the two instruments.

The keyboard are played with a totally different technique.

And there are the different manuals on the organ, which aren’t present on the piano.

And then there are the pedals for both instruments, which for the organ involves playing with the feet as well as the hands–not easy.

And then there are the stops for the organ–different on every organ. It’s not just a question of putting it on a “generic setting.”

And then there’s the difference between the pipe organ and the electric organ.

And then there’s the puzzle of learning how loud and soft to play for congregational singing vs. a solo singer vs. a choir. It took me years to learn that on a piano, and I only did so because people (song leaders and conductors) helped me out by giving me feedback. I still rely on other people to tell me if I am playing too softly or too loud in church.

Certainly, people can learn to play two instruments. But I regret to say that I honestly don’t have the time to practice, or the money to pay for the organ lessons. Most pianists are in the same boat as I am. If I didn’t have to work, I would probably consider learning to play the organ.
But I have to work.

If someone knows of a thriving community of organists, tell them to spread out a little. The fact is, they are rarer than alexandrite, and more precious.

 

[twosweetgirls]

My friend’s brother-in-law has his doctorate in organ performance! And if he’s anything like what I just now heard on EWTN (it was Sacred Hymns of Ireland, and featured the organ, violin and an Irish flute) then I bet he’s phenomenal. I agree about organ and Gregorian chant; if our Masses here had those, I think I’d never leave the building.

 

[Phemie]

Well, I know pianists who don’t do pianos justice.

Let me put it this way, we have someone who plays the organ in our church just so we’ll have accompaniment otherwise the choir is a capella. But you could never call him an organist. He’s a great classical guitarist and the guys who play guitar at Mass can’t touch him on that instrument, but his skill doesn’t translate to the organ. Yes, he can play a tune on the organ but that’s as far as it goes.

IMHO, it would be better for the guitar strummers to retire and for him to retire as organist and play his classical guitar to accompany the choir.

 

[snhs]

The first two paragraphs demonstrate a very flawed and incomplete knowledge of the organ and the piano.

I have played piano for almost 45 years, and I have many friends who play piano and organ professionally. Almost all of them would shake their heads over your suggestions.

The piano and organ are two entirely different instruments. The keyboard looks the same–that’s the end of the simliarities between the two instruments.

The keyboard are played with a totally different technique.

And there are the different manuals on the organ, which aren’t present on the piano.

And then there are the pedals for both instruments, which for the organ involves playing with the feet as well as the hands–not easy.

And then there are the stops for the organ–different on every organ. It’s not just a question of putting it on a “generic setting.”

And then there’s the difference between the pipe organ and the electric organ.

And then there’s the puzzle of learning how loud and soft to play for congregational singing vs. a solo singer vs. a choir. It took me years to learn that on a piano, and I only did so because people (song leaders and conductors) helped me out by giving me feedback. I still rely on other people to tell me if I am playing too softly or too loud in church.

Certainly, people can learn to play two instruments. But I regret to say that I honestly don’t have the time to practice, or the money to pay for the organ lessons. Most pianists are in the same boat as I am. If I didn’t have to work, I would probably consider learning to play the organ.
But I have to work.

If someone knows of a thriving community of organists, tell them to spread out a little. The fact is, they are rarer than alexandrite, and more precious.

I think if anyone has a flawed understanding it’s you. And I don’t think I ever claimed to have a complete knowledge of the organ or the piano for that matter.

When did I say they were the same instrument? I don’t think I did, did I?

And it’s not just a matter of the keyboards looking the same it is a matter of playing a note on one and it sounding the same pitch as the other, a C on the organ is in exactly the same place as a C on a piano.

When did anyone say that to play an organ you required complete mastery of using foot pedals and stops? I don’t think most Parishes expect the person playing to give organ recitals or renditions of Bach’s Toccata and Fugue.

Correct me if I’m wrong but most Parishes I know of have one organ. Someone chooses a setting which sounds reasonable and leaves it set on it or everyone is told how to put it on a certain setting, not exactly rocket science.

Again most Parishes use either a Pipe Organ or an Electric Organ, either way it has a keyboard which any pianist worth their salt should be able to play. And that’s an opinion my theory teacher, who has taught piano for decades and regularly plays the organ at Mass, has mentioned on various occasions.

You mean just like someone would have to do with any piano they’d not played before? Again not exactly rocket science.

It’s not a question of learning another instrument per se. It’s simply taking the skills which someone already has and applying them in a slightly different way. You may never have played a Harpsichord, for example, but a pianist if shown a Harpsichord should be able to play on it just as they should if shown an organ. It’s not a question of whether they’ll be as good at it as if they had spent decades studying the exact technique most appropriate to playing the Harpsichord in the time of Handel or if they’ll be as good at it as a Christ Church Organ scholar, because in all probability they won’t, but it’s not as if even you can pretend most hymns demand that level of mastery. If a Parish happens to have a professional organist/organists who is/are willing to offer their services at every Mass then fine, if not then it seems to me pianists playing the organ are more than sufficient in the vast majority of cases, and certainly better than the various groups some Parishes have to suffer through.

Where do you think organists come from anyway? They don’t just pop up one day and start playing pedals and all, the vast majority learn the piano and then transfer those skills to organ, they don’t start from square one again just because it looks or sounds different. Some of the pianists who play the organ in my Parish use the pedals, others never do, some use the different manuals and others don’t. Whatever they do they still seem to manage to play the hymns just as well as if they had a piano in front of them, no matter how many flaws a professional organists might detect in their technique, or what an awful setting they had the stops on relative to the one they’d have used.

 

[Cat]

I think if anyone has a flawed understanding it’s you. And I don’t think I ever claimed to have a complete knowledge of the organ or the piano for that matter.

When did I say they were the same instrument? I don’t think I did, did I?

And it’s not just a matter of the keyboards looking the same it is a matter of playing a note on one and it sounding the same pitch as the other, a C on the organ is in exactly the same place as a C on a piano.

When did anyone say that to play an organ you required complete mastery of using foot pedals and stops? I don’t think most Parishes expect the person playing to give organ recitals or renditions of Bach’s Toccata and Fugue.

Correct me if I’m wrong but most Parishes I know of have one organ. Someone chooses a setting which sounds reasonable and leaves it set on it or everyone is told how to put it on a certain setting, not exactly rocket science.

Again most Parishes use either a Pipe Organ or an Electric Organ, either way it has a keyboard which any pianist worth their salt should be able to play. And that’s an opinion my theory teacher, who has taught piano for decades and regularly plays the organ at Mass, has mentioned on various occasions.

You mean just like someone would have to do with any piano they’d not played before? Again not exactly rocket science.

It’s not a question of learning another instrument per se. It’s simply taking the skills which someone already has and applying them in a slightly different way. You may never have played a Harpsichord, for example, but a pianist if shown a Harpsichord should be able to play on it just as they should if shown an organ. It’s not a question of whether they’ll be as good at it as if they had spent decades studying the exact technique most appropriate to playing the Harpsichord in the time of Handel or if they’ll be as good at it as a Christ Church Organ scholar, because in all probability they won’t, but it’s not as if even you can pretend most hymns demand that level of mastery. If a Parish happens to have a professional organist/organists who is/are willing to offer their services at every Mass then fine, if not then it seems to me pianists playing the organ are more than sufficient in the vast majority of cases, and certainly better than the various groups some Parishes have to suffer through.

Where do you think organists come from anyway? They don’t just pop up one day and start playing pedals and all, the vast majority learn the piano and then transfer those skills to organ, they don’t start from square one again just because it looks or sounds different. Some of the pianists who play the organ in my Parish use the pedals, others never do, some use the different manuals and others don’t. Whatever they do they still seem to manage to play the hymns just as well as if they had a piano in front of them, no matter how many flaws a professional organists might detect in their technique, or what an awful setting they had the stops on relative to the one they’d have used.

Would another musician besides me speak to this man, please? He doesn’t believe anything I say.

snhs, please don’t respond to me anymore. You don’t buy anything I say anyway.

Well, sir, when it comes to Catholic doctrine, you may very know well, know more than I do, but when it comes to playing the piano, I DO KNOW A LOT!!!

Forgive the rant, everyone, but it’s hard to take this from a teenager who obviously doesn’t play. I’ve spent several HOURS playing the piano today (Sunday) and maybe I’m just a tad skewered when someone who doesn’t play tries to tell me how I should be able to play the organ.

If I could play the organ, I would quit my secular job and be so loaded with gigs that I would have to turn down gigs. That’s what my organist friends are experiencing.

But I can’t play the organ. Most pianists can’t.

 

[myroneffing]

Just a quick question. Someone mentioned that Latin should still be heard in Churches today. I am wondering why. I don’t recall the apostles worshipping in Latin (although I may be mistaken). I can understand if some PREFER Latin for a sense of tradition, but certainly I cannot see any biblical basis for requiring it. Can someone explain this to me?

I agree with you. I was happy to be an altar server during the Latin times and also was a member of the choir, and we sang Gregorian chant “as well as at the monastery”, they said. But I’m so glad to see the day of English come so I can worship God in my own language! Of course the Apostles used Greek, mostly, and even the Church in Rome used Greek before the big switch to Latin came. It was Ss Cyril and Methodius who were determined that the Slavic peoples had to have the liturgy in their own languages, and it was Rome which gave the permission! It was Vatican II which gave the permission for all the peoples of the world. There is no way I want to go back to Latin, and Gregorian chant doesn’t interest me and I don’t think it particularly interest God. I don’t think it is very appropriate for the “new rite” if the rite itself is being said in another language.

It seem to me that the nut of the problem is that liturgical “renewal” has quite often gone down the wrong path–the one that leads to married priests, women priests, and terrible liturgy–i.e. to Protestantism. And people who see that and are anxious about it are looking for lifeboats to save the situation. And Latin is a lifeboat, and so is Gregorian chant and so is the extraordinary rite.

What is needed is for people to return back down the path that they walked and return to Catholic orthodoxy. Then they will be able to see clearly just what the Mass is all about, and how we should celebrate it, music and all!

I’d like to say something about the “hymn” “We remember how you loved us to the end.” The refrain is terrific, I think, but the verses verge on heresy. It would be great to have new verses which actually recall what Jesus said at the Last Supper.
It would become a really great orthodox hymn for Communion time.

 

[FrDavid96]

I agree with you. I was happy to be an altar server during the Latin times and also was a member of the choir, and we sang Gregorian chant “as well as at the monastery”, they said. But I’m so glad to see the day of English come so I can worship God in my own language! Of course the Apostles used Greek, mostly, and even the Church in Rome used Greek before the big switch to Latin came. It was Ss Cyril and Methodius who were determined that the Slavic peoples had to have the liturgy in their own languages, and it was Rome which gave the permission! It was Vatican II which gave the permission for all the peoples of the world. There is no way I want to go back to Latin, and Gregorian chant doesn’t interest me and I don’t think it particularly interest God. I don’t think it is very appropriate for the “new rite” if the rite itself is being said in another language.

It seem to me that the nut of the problem is that liturgical “renewal” has quite often gone down the wrong path–the one that leads to married priests, women priests, and terrible liturgy–i.e. to Protestantism. And people who see that and are anxious about it are looking for lifeboats to save the situation. And Latin is a lifeboat, and so is Gregorian chant and so is the extraordinary rite.

What is needed is for people to return back down the path that they walked and return to Catholic orthodoxy. Then they will be able to see clearly just what the Mass is all about, and how we should celebrate it, music and all!

I’d like to say something about the “hymn” “We remember how you loved us to the end.” The refrain is terrific, I think, but the verses verge on heresy. It would be great to have new verses which actually recall what Jesus said at the Last Supper.
It would become a really great orthodox hymn for Communion time.

As for Gregorian Chant, this is the standard by which music in the church is measured. That’s not the same thing as saying that it must always be done (perhaps there’s a misunderstanding that some are insisting on this), or even always in Latin. There are plenty of good examples of hymns that closely resemble Gregorian Chant in the vernacular. It is this kind of hymn that should replace the overly secular music that is unfortunately being forced upon many unwilling Catholics.

 

[MusicMan]

Without having rudimentary skills with the pedal board, a pianist playing organ would sound awful. Verily I say to you, snhs and anyone else, you wouldn’t like singing hymns to a pianist who’s set the organ on a generic setting and just plays with his/her hands on the Great Organ manual week after week.

And no one hand me any “Just put a 16’ stop on and it’ll be fine” nonsense either, because it won’t.

Before we even talk technique, registration selection is an art. You need to have a working understanding of what each stop does. Although the organ may come with generic presets, it would still be wise to know the difference between a Waldflute 8’, an Octave 4’ and a Tierce 1 3/5’.

The comes not allowing the hymns to be choppy. Without a pedal to connect, it’s even more important. While you’re figuring that out, maybe some knowledge of the pedals might help, especially on the last notes of each phrase.

The keyboards on an organ may resemble they keyboards on a piano, but it is an unique instrument all by itself, and while a bit more transfer knowledge will occur between the two, it’s not like going from a flute to a piccolo or from a soprano clarinet to a bass clarinet.

It’s more like going from a trumpet to a tuba. The fingerings are kinda the same, but the instruments sound very different and utilize many different techniques.

 

[agapewolf]

I have a degree in music education. I play piano for a living…mostly at church. I play traditional and contemporary.

I took 1 year of organ lessons in 5th grade. I had to “fake my way” through one organ march for a wedding Saturday. I barely made it sound acceptable…and this was through some practice time…and SOOOO much omission (no pedals, no changing settings, omitting the bridge). It really lacked.

They are in NO WAY the same instrument. and the cross over would stop any singing participation of the congregation.

 

[elts1956]

Would another musician besides me speak to this man, please? He doesn’t believe anything I say.

snhs, please don’t respond to me anymore. You don’t buy anything I say anyway.

Well, sir, when it comes to Catholic doctrine, you may very know well, know more than I do, but when it comes to playing the piano, I DO KNOW A LOT!!!

Forgive the rant, everyone, but it’s hard to take this from a teenager who obviously doesn’t play. I’ve spent several HOURS playing the piano today (Sunday) and maybe I’m just a tad skewered when someone who doesn’t play tries to tell me how I should be able to play the organ.

If I could play the organ, I would quit my secular job and be so loaded with gigs that I would have to turn down gigs. That’s what my organist friends are experiencing.

But I can’t play the organ. Most pianists can’t.

Hello Cat. I have truly “dumb” fingers. Can’t play nary a musical instrument. So how hard would it be for a pianist to learn to play the organ? Just trying to keep you busy.

 

[Aramis]

Because of staffing issues in our city, I’ve been playing (piano) for many Masses in the last few months. [snip]

No organists. The few we have left are getting older and beginning to suffer from debilitating disorders that make it hard for them to play at all. One organist told me that many people are forced to have a pianist or no music at all for their FUNERAL Mass because there just aren’t enough organists around. Sad.

Theologically, the most appropriate instruments for music in the liturgy are human voices. According to both the GIRM, and Redemptoris Sacramentum, in the Roman Mass, the most appropriate music for mass is Gregorian Chant. (Roman Plainchant is a very close option.)

Instrumental music is neither required nor even strongly suggested in the governing documents; it is permitted. Not even encouraged, but permitted.

Pride of place goes to Gregorian Chant. A vocal tradition is the heritage of the Church in ALL rites and churches sui iuris of the Catholic Church.

No offense, but theologically and canonically, pianists and organists are completely unneeded. They are a luxury.

 

[m134e5]

Actually, balance is by no means advised (not by the Church at least!). The Church is clear that Gregorian Chant has primacy of place, and the appropriateness of music is to be specifically judged in light of how closely it resembles Gregorian Chant. John Paul II taught that explicitly in written documents.

The use of instruments and multi-part choral pieces at Mass has also been highly esteemed by the Church over the centuries. While Gregorian Chant should be given a certain respect, because of what the Church asks for, it doesn’t have to be the only form of music at Mass.

 

[Cat]

Theologically, the most appropriate instruments for music in the liturgy are human voices. According to both the GIRM, and Redemptoris Sacramentum, in the Roman Mass, the most appropriate music for mass is Gregorian Chant. (Roman Plainchant is a very close option.)

Instrumental music is neither required nor even strongly suggested in the governing documents; it is permitted. Not even encouraged, but permitted.

Pride of place goes to Gregorian Chant. A vocal tradition is the heritage of the Church in ALL rites and churches sui iuris of the Catholic Church.

No offense, but theologically and canonically, pianists and organists are completely unneeded. They are a luxury.

I’m not trying to be cantankerous here. But after playing for four years in Catholic Churches, I can attest that the people do not sing and are not capable of singing this kind of music!

I’m sorry to be so gloomy and pessimistic. I’m only stating what I’ve seen.

I’ve only heard a few cantors and priests that I think are even capable of learning Gregorian chant, and without cantors and priests who can teach the congregation, the congregation won’t learn Gregorian chant.

Even the choirs that I’ve heard are pretty bad.

Heck, most people don’t know how to sing! They sing through their noses or in their throats, and they don’t open their mouths and they don’t breathe. If you don’t breathe during chant, you won’t chant! And they have no idea how to sing in the head to reach the “high” notes (for most people a “high” note is the A above middle C!).

In the United States, music education is not esteemed in the schools, public or private, and many schools here don’t offer it at all. And many music teachers succumb to the temptation to simply run a “glee club” and let their students sing pop music. They don’t teach them to read music or sing correctly.

Some of this is because of race. I’ve seen this and I don’t know how to deal with it. The students are not Caucasion, and they claim (or their parents claim) that they don’t want to sing that old-fashioned “white European” music–it’s considered “racist” to teach this stuff. So the teacher sighs and brings on the rap and hip-hop and tejano. A smart teacher will bring out some African or HIspanic or Middle Eastern folk songs and at least try to instill some tone and note reading. But often, there is no money to purchase this stuff, and the teacher has to buy them out of his/her own money. Tough stuff.

Some of you say, “Just teach them how and they will learn!” Well, how?!! Our Music/Liturgy Director has been trying for a year to get the cantors together for a general meeting and practice time, so that they can learn some new Mass parts–A YEAR! Only a few people show up.

I believe that if chant is going to be established in many of the Catholic Churches, Father will have to say, “ALL cantors will attend training sessions on (date) to learn Gregorian chant. Those who do not attend will go to hell when they die according to the Pope.”

I honestly think that’s the only way to get the cantors to show up and learn–by threatening them with hell. I don’t even think excommunication would do it. It has to be hell, or they won’t take it seriously.

Only stating the facts here, people! I wish it wasn’t like that. I wish that a class could be held once or twice a month for cantors and prospective cantors to get some training, practice some hymns, and begin learning Latin and some of the ancient styles of music. But I don’t see it happening without that threat of eternal fire.

I suppose they could be given an instructional CD, but I’m willing to bet that most of them would never take the time to listen to it–unless, of course, they’re threatened with hell.

Keep in mind that cantoring is volunteer, so they don’t lose anything if they don’t show up to cantor. It’s the church’s loss, not theirs.

 

[Sarabande]

I’m of the mindset that P&W music is not appropriate for mass. Enough people on this thread has already expressed the reasons why I believe that.

That all aside, though, as a professional musician (classical singer) who has studied music since the age of 4 starting on the piano, I agree with the other musicians on here (Cat, MusicMan and Agapewolf) regarding abilities to be able to play the organ and/or the piano. Yes, a pianist might be able to just play one of the manuals of the organ, and if that is all the church has (no piano), then a pianist would have to make do. But most pianists I know who are “worth their salt” wouldn’t want to ‘desecrate’ (in their words) an organ by playing it, unless it was absolutely necessary.

I’m not an organist, but I know and work with quite a few of very good organists. There is an art to playing the organ correctly so that it sounds beautiful and also supports the congregation. If you ever listen to an organist who hasn’t played a piano for years, you will notice that many times, that organist will play the piano not so well. I’m not speaking in terms of musicianship, but in the way the piano is played. They play with no legato (notes are played separated - no continuity between one note to the next). They do not know how to make the piano “sing” with fullness. I have a friend who went from playing another instrument to the organ. He is an excellent organist, but on the piano, he’s not so great. The piano sounds empty when he plays. I wouldn’t want him to accompany me for major events that required the piano like recitals and such. But he is great for church either for mass or a sacred music recital for just the organ or organ and voice.

I have another organist friends who is probably one of the best and most talented organists in the city, who regularly plays both the organ and piano. He is incredible with both instruments. I love working on vocal repertoire with him for piano and voice just as much as working with him on sacred repertoire in church. You love the piano AND the organ when you hear him play.

There are reasons why some people do not like the organ. And I believe these are the two main reasons: 1. The musicianship of whoever playing the organ really stinks and bad musicianship is really magnified greatly when on the organ. 2. The person playing the organ might have good musicianship, but does not know how to play the organ.

I’ve heard the same pipe organ played by a different people. Some were true organists, others were “organ players” and still others were not even what I would consider musicians. That same organ has sounded like the ugliest, most horrid instrument on the planet by the organ players or non-musicians. I know that people don’t sing with playing like that and it’s even worse hearing the organ by itself. BUT it has also sounded like the most beautiful, majestic and even sweet instrument when played by those who know how to handle that huge pipe organ. People will sing to an organ sounding like that especially when well supported by it AND they will also be uplifted by the instrumental works. Many of my family and friends who have come for mass have been surprised by how beautiful the organ can sound.

Basically, a good organist who has not much or no experience playing the piano can make the piano sound wretched. The same goes with a good pianist trying to play an organ. Sorry about this being so long.

 

[snhs]

Would another musician besides me speak to this man, please? He doesn’t believe anything I say.

snhs, please don’t respond to me anymore. You don’t buy anything I say anyway.

Well, sir, when it comes to Catholic doctrine, you may very know well, know more than I do, but when it comes to playing the piano, I DO KNOW A LOT!!!

Forgive the rant, everyone, but it’s hard to take this from a teenager who obviously doesn’t play. I’ve spent several HOURS playing the piano today (Sunday) and maybe I’m just a tad skewered when someone who doesn’t play tries to tell me how I should be able to play the organ.

If I could play the organ, I would quit my secular job and be so loaded with gigs that I would have to turn down gigs. That’s what my organist friends are experiencing.

But I can’t play the organ. Most pianists can’t.

You are posting to a public forum, if you don’t want people responding to you then don’t post. I don’t think I’ve said anything which is outwith the rules, if you think otherwise then you’re free to refer the relevant post.

The view I have expressed coincides exactly with that my theory teacher has mentioned, there’s a reasonable chance he has been making a living playing the piano and teaching it since before you knew what a piano was. But I suppose he has a “very flawed and incomplete knowledge” of the piano and organ as well.

This comes down to a very simple matter of what it means to play something. Sir James plays the flute, as does a Grade 8 student and a pre Grade 1 student. Likewise on piano we can say that someone who is learning and perhaps only doing one hand at a time plays piano, and so does a first year music undergrad and Emanuel Ax. They might not all play it as well, at the same level, or be able to add trills and appropriate decorations to a given melodic line.

You can play the organ without being at the standard needed to be a professional at it, you can also play the organ with just the foot pedals or only one manual without worrying about changing the stops. You can play basic tunes on an organ without having a degree on it or having a list of professional engagements, and the vast majority of hymns are just that at a basic level, fairly simple tunes.

I’m of the mindset that P&W music is not appropriate for mass. Enough people on this thread has already expressed the reasons why I believe that.

That all aside, though, as a professional musician (classical singer) who has studied music since the age of 4 starting on the piano, I agree with the other musicians on here (Cat, MusicMan and Agapewolf) regarding abilities to be able to play the organ and/or the piano. Yes, a pianist might be able to just play one of the manuals of the organ, and if that is all the church has (no piano), then a pianist would have to make do. But most pianists I know who are “worth their salt” wouldn’t want to ‘desecrate’ (in their words) an organ by playing it, unless it was absolutely necessary.

…

Basically, a good organist who has not much or no experience playing the piano can make the piano sound wretched. The same goes with a good pianist trying to play an organ. Sorry about this being so long.

You seem to be accepting my premise though, if you stick a piano player in front of an organ they can play, right? We’re not talking about incredibly complex pieces either relative to what they may be playing in their music lessons. Cat set forward two problems 1) Lack of people capable of playing the organ 2) No young people learning the organ. The solution seems to be take the young people who can already play piano and have them start playing simple hymns on the organ, then you get young people capable of playing the organ. They will already be able to manage the main manual keyboard, albeit they may not have acquired the techniques most suitable for it, and most people I’ve seen start playing a new instrument are quite keen on expanding on what they know, so with time they will probably want to try adding other bits or finding out how to change the voice etc.

The fact is if we want organists then they need to learn somehow and somewhere, most organs are in a Church, many Churches have a congregation which includes at least some young people able to play piano to a decent standard. I don’t know whether it counts as musical sacrilege to have them playing an organ, but they do need to start somewhere just as they will have on a piano, on learning what ornamentation is appropriate in Baroque works or whatever else.

 

[agapewolf]

You seem to be accepting my premise though, if you stick a piano player in front of an organ they can play, right?

Absolutely not.

it is not anything comparable to a flute player learning piccolo. It is a completely different instrument. Read the musicians on here that have stated as such.