Praise and worship music for Mass?

[bquinnan]

David Ancell:

For starters, I prefer it to the self-congratulatory “Gather Us In” or “One Bread, One Body.”

Ditto! On Sunday this week, every song was about how great we art, the community of believers. And the thing is, 90 percent of it is not only arrogant, but poorly written.

I have a theory (or perhaps just a hypothesis at this stage) that, because Gregorian chant was written and developed over centuries, there is simply a lot more to choose from. Maybe there is some really lame chant buried in a vault somewhere – that’s OK, because there were enough people writing it for long enough that you could easily cover several years without repeating any of it and still have great music at every Mass.

This junk that shows up in most of the Oregan Catholic Press books was mostly written in the last few decades, so they just don’t have as much to choose from. Still, the best songs in the OCP missalettes are generally the traditional hymns, like “Ave Maria.”

My third-grade teacher, who led the school choir when I was a kid, was at least good at finding the OCP songs that praised God rather than the community. She actually wrote a few songs in the missalette herself – “How Good You Are God,” “Yahweh Is My Shepherd Now” and “Mary’s Song.” I especially like the last of the three songs.

Nowadays, I don’t even bother singing half of the songs, because I can’t stand them. My least favorite of late is called “Sing a New (Politically Correct) Church.” Why do we need a new Church? Was the one Jesus gave us not good enough? Seems like someone starts a new church every day anyway.

 

[Beverly]

Yes, White Dove, another crisis of faith! It is good that we don’t live in Somalia because I am sure the music in Somalia is not reverent or liturgically correct. I am amazed at the snobbery and cynicism on this forum. Dumb me, I didn’t realize “Gather Us In” was such a bad song. I thought it was just a really nice song about how all of God’s people are gathered into the church together no matter how different (oh, there is the problem) they are to worship him together. “One Bread, One Body” can’t be so badly written - it is taken from scripture (1 Corinthians 10) but then it is probably too “horizontal” for most people.

There are some songs I really do not like, but I don’t immediately say they are not well written or should not be sung. In fact, being in a choir, there are many times I have to sing a song I don’t personally like because it fits the readings for the day. I just chalk it up to personal taste. Someone else may be really touched by that particular hymn. I think it is very egotistical to say a song that has obviously been approved for mass if it is in OCP or another reputable Catholic music publisher’s book should never be sung at mass simply because it doesn’t appeal to me.

 

[Disillusioned]

It’s a matter of taste but we cannot make the Mass a matter of taste …there are people so afraid of the old terminology that they call their “hymns” worship songs and even deem that what used to be a church must be a worship space or a christian centre.This is cart before horse thnking, you do not except in the minds of modernistic heretics go to mass to worship God…just remember the days when hardly anything was sung-those were valid masses.

The emphasis is wrong now, there is an eighth sacrament called the music ministry dispensed as one person sees in rock bands coming near the sanctuary and songs set to tunes that are no different from those the teenagers hear outside-they are what they hear exactly.

In my opinion it was also a mistake to place without warning in Catholic hymnals hymns that came from other church tradtions and which do not square with correct doctrine.There are a number which directly involve the penal substition model of the redemption (that’s to be super technical) and then one like Amazing Grace which sings things that Catholicism does not 100% go along with.
Now look at it this way,apart from play acting Anglo-Catholics,would we expect anyone Evangelical or in a non Roman tradition to want to sing hymns in praise of Mary ?

Music has got so bad that it puts me off mass-now that’s one really telling statement.

 

[slugo1983]

I wonder if they played a string instrument at the first masses that had music?

If a harp or a violin was used at the mass, would people have the same opinion? Is it the guitar or possibly the vision of the Protestant influence in the mass?

I think it is in the lyrics and the reverence of the music played at the mass. If people are going for a “show” or for the music, no matter what type of music it is, they are forgetting what they are there for.
David praised God with a string instrument and I’m sure God enjoyed it.
The musicians at the mass are playing for Christ and offering their talents to Him. I’ve seen organ players think they are Little Richard and I’ve seen guitarist think they are Keith Richards by the way they play and the selection of the music at mass.
I had the pleasure to see my daughter (16) fill in for the music minister at a mass and she played her guitar and there was a reverance just like the piano at the mass.
God Bless

 

[jp2fan]

You guys need to get of praise and worhip music’s back.

I love praise and worship! I hated it until about a year ago for all the reasons that everyone here has been saying. However, I think that Church music is so often void of emotions that it isn’t really a prayer for most people. Hymns steeped in theology are great, but you don’t pray through theology. You pray through emotions. I would take your average praise and worship “I love you Jesus” song over some profound hymn any day.

Having said that, I don’t think that most praise and worship music belongs at Mass simply because it’s pretty much all about me and Jesus, not us and Jesus, and at Mass we need to praise Jesus as one voice, not a bunch of voices all singing to Jesus. For instance, my church is particularly fond of “Breathe”. If you’re not familiar with it, here’s some lyrics:
“This is the air I breathe
This is the air I breathe
Your holy presence
Living in me.
This is my daily bread
This is my daily bread
Your very word
Spoken to me
And I_____, I’m desparate for you.
And I_____, I’m lost without you.”
Very nice, for a prayer, but a little too individualistic for the Mass, I think

There’s my two cents.

jp2fan

 

[bquinnan]

Beverly:

Dumb me, I didn’t realize “Gather Us In” was such a bad song. I thought it was just a really nice song about how all of God’s people are gathered into the church together no matter how different (oh, there is the problem) they are to worship him together.

What I don’t like about “Gather Us In” is that focuses on us, the people. The message I get is, “Look at all of us and how holy we are to grace the Lord with our presence today! Let’s sing about it!” I’d prefer songs that at least reflect what an awesome wonder God is.

 

[pittsburghjeff]

I am as orthodox as I know how to be when it comes to theological issues and I love praise and worship music.

Everytime I have been to an organ/cantor mass the congregation sits there staring back at the cantor while she sings away. The congregation seems uninspired, they don’t sing, and half of them seem like they are falling asleep. I know that the Eucharist is what makes the mass, but the music should do something to inspire people.

Contrast that with the masses at Franciscan University where people are singing praise and worship songs to raise the roof.

Most of the lyrics from praise and worship songs come right out of scripture.

For example, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne and unto the Lamb, etc.” That song invokes the image from Revelation of the multitudes praying before the Lamb of God in heaven.

There are songs written specifically for eucharistic worship, like “This is Jesus” or “Cup of Life Outpoured”

I think this one comes down to musical taste and not an issue of liturgical orthodoxy. Granted, there are abuses by some people using inappropriate “guitar music” but there are also abuses when people used traditional organ music and change the lyrics to make it gender neutral (which I have experienced).

 

[bquinnan]

pittsburghjeff:

I think this one comes down to musical taste and not an issue of liturgical orthodoxy.

I don’t believe it’s entirely about taste. I enjoy a wide range of musical styles outside of Mass. My music collection includes classical, opera, country western (mostly older stuff like Johnny Cash and George Jones), '50s rock’n’roll, the Beatles, jazz, blues, and “pop vocal” classics like Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby. But most of this music just wouldn’t be appropriate in Church, in my opinion, even if you changed the lyrics to make them songs about the faith. (Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Pagans.)

What it has to do with for me is what the the tone of the Mass is supposed to be, and where the focus is supposed to be. Gregorian chant does not “take over” the way an upbeat praise song can. It creates a mood of solemnity, drawing one into the Mass without becoming a distraction.

That’s not to say praise music wouldn’t be great in other contexts. It could be a very positive thing at a festival for Catholic teens, for example. Or, it could be an alternative to what’s on the radio. Some people listen to it on their headphones at the gym or in their cars.

But I believe it is a distraction from the central focus of the Mass.

 

[jp2fan]

Disillusioned:

The emphasis is wrong now, there is an eighth sacrament called the music ministry
…
Music has got so bad that it puts me off mass-now that’s one really telling statement.

With all due respect, it looks to me that if your distaste of music is overriding your love of the Eucharist, then it is in your heart that music is the eigth sacrament. My two cents.

jp2fan

 

[jp2fan]

pittsburghjeff:

I am as orthodox as I know how to be when it comes to theological issues and I love praise and worship music.

Ditto, I’m exactly the same.

pittsburghjeff:

Everytime I have been to an organ/cantor mass the congregation sits there staring back at the cantor while she sings away. The congregation seems uninspired, they don’t sing, and half of them seem like they are falling asleep. I know that the Eucharist is what makes the mass, but the music should do something to inspire people.

I totally agree.

pittsburghjeff:

Most of the lyrics from praise and worship songs come right out of scripture.

For example, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne and unto the Lamb, etc.” That song invokes the image from Revelation of the multitudes praying before the Lamb of God in heaven.

Good point. And I really like Salvation Belongs to our God.

pittsburghjeff:

There are songs written specifically for eucharistic worship, like “This is Jesus” or “Cup of Life Outpoured”.

Or this- “Send down your cup Lord
Send down your bread.
We stand before you now
Living and dead.
We are your children Lord
You’ve known from the first
We are not worthy Lord
But just say the word.”

pittsburghjeff:

I think this one comes down to musical taste and not an issue of liturgical orthodoxy. Granted, there are abuses by some people using inappropriate “guitar music” but there are also abuses when people used traditional organ music and change the lyrics to make it gender neutral (which I have experienced). .

I **hate **when they change the songs to be gender neutral. They do this all the time at my school and it makes me crazy.

Beverly- I think we see eye to eye on this one too.

jp2fan

 

[JNB]

Talking to people I know who have been to mass in Mexico, they actually say the masses they have gone to are more reverent than they are in the US. Also, I read somwhere that many Mexican Bishops banned Mariachi music at mass, so if mass can be reverent in Mexico, why do they insist on a lack of reverence for the Mexican community in the US?

Like the Charismatic movment that has partially burned itself out in the US in the last few years, I except much of the “modern” music, be it Life Teen or Haugen/Haas to go away, as the “hip” clergey from the 60s and 70s retire from their pastorates.

 

[Georgiabirdie]

Chrismasfetus:

I just wanted to know what your opinions were on guitar masses and praise and worship music? Personally, I like more traditional hymns and the organ. I’ve never been to a mass with gregorian chant, but I’m sure it would be beautiful

So what are your opinions?

As a music minister, I may have a different about the music from up front rather than in the pew. I think guitar, when played properly, can be a beautiful encouragement to prayer and meditation, as well as singing. Remember, the guitar, or a similar instrument, was used in worship long before the organ was even invented in the 17th century, I believe. I also think that a lot of our contemporary music is inspired. But the ancient music by Palestrina and others, as well as the plain chant should play a part in the liturgy, too. Otherwise, we forget about our beautiful Gregorian music ; and we need to keep our Latin tradition, too.

 

[otm]

This area amuses me almost as much as some of the liturgical complaints. So much of the complaint ahs to do with “feelings”. (And was that ever a chestnut!) I have directly challenged people when they have said that lyrics of certain songs are not “theologically sound”. Come to find out, the wording was from one of the Gospels, or an Epistle, or one of the Psalms. Yeah, pretty poor theology.

I’ve heard complaints about some Eucharistic songs; seems that it won’t be good enough until we use the words, body, blood, soul and divinity. Then i quoted a line from one of the pre-Vatican II songs; seems, that it was pretty bad theology too, until they found out the age of the song…

Much of it has to do with the image one has in their mind as to what is “sacred” and what is not. I attended a Mass in latin, with polyphonic music ala Palastrina. Thankfully it was on a Saturday night, and I was able to go to Mass the next day, as I felt that I had been to a concert rather than a Mass; drop dead gorgeous singing. But I felt that I should have paid about $35.00 for a ticket to attend…

Heard a funderal Mass on EWTN, and I have to admit, I have never in my life heard Gregorian chant so poorly done. It was an embarrassment. And I’ve sung my share of Gregorian chant; while in the seminary, we cut a record of Gregorian Chant, and the monk who was leading us could walk up and down the isle, stop, and point 5 or 6 people over and say “You are off-key!” However, to sing with even a hint of proper execution, it takes some extensive training, which most people don’t have; and then the congregation is excluded. I prefer to sing with everyone else, not sit and listen to a choir.

And as to Oregon Catholic Press, one of these days count the number of songs which note at the bottom the specific Biblical texts from which they were written; then tell me they are bad.

 

[James_2_24]

“Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the Mass, with* due consideration for the culture of the people * and abilities of each liturgical assembly.” That would contradict your statement “Just because a certain culture insists on imposing its music in the mass doesn’t mean it is right.” The GIRM says people’s culture should be given “due consideration” even if it is a culture that you do not have an appreciation for.

Just because the GIRM says that people’s culture should be given due consideration… doesn’t mean any and all of that cultures aspects should be injected into the mass. There may be spanish hymns that are worthy… but mariachi music isn’t.

If you want to take it that far with “due consideration”, there are cultures that LOVE heavy metal and screaming and banging their heads. Well, I guess we better consider them as well and be one big happy family We can all throw our hands in the air and bang our heads to the beat at the priest processes up the aisle.

Anyways, there is no need for an ad hominem attack. When you accuse me of not having apprecation for an ENTIRE culture just because I don’t argee with mariachi music in a Mass. Mariachi is only .00000001% of the entire Hispanic culture.

 

[jp2fan]

You know, if people can pray through mariachi music, who cares??? Who are we to sit here and say that’s not enough? I’ve been to multiple mariachi masses, and they weren’t particularly my style, but I also don’t speak Spanish. Just wasn’t for me. But to see my Hispanic brothers and sisters clutching their hearts and singing along, who am I to say they are not allowed to do that? To me a lot of this comes down to personal preference, and I think there are some here who feel determined to make everyone have their same musical taste. It’s not going to happen, and why should it anyway?

jp2fan

 

[James_2_24]

jp2fan:

To me a lot of this comes down to personal preference, and I think there are some here who feel determined to make everyone have their same musical taste. It’s not going to happen, and why should it anyway?

jp2fan

That’s just the problem… the ones here that are “determined to make everyone have their same musical taste” don’t see it as a preference.

I don’t see it as a preference. I believe there is music which is appropriate for difference occasions. I believe there is music which is suited for worship and music that is not. I do not believe that the hymns at mass are just meant to be, well, “what do you prefer”?

If we leave it up to preference… Well, what if I say I like heavy metal and rap when I’m in my car? Is it okay to bring that into the liturgy? Like I said earlier… why not bring in heavy metal and start banging our heads to the liturgy? Better yet, why don’t get a country band to come in and sing for us at mass? We can start breaking up the Sunday schedule to suit everyone’s preference!

8:00am Rap Liturgy
9:45am Country Liturgy
11:00am Heavy Metal Liturgy

I’m sure you noticed the sincerity of the Mariachi singers in the mass… I have to… but their sincerity and love for the Lord doesn’t mean that what they are doing is correct for the liturgy. If you are going to look at good intentions as a indicator of what they are doing is right… then you might as well accept any liturgical abuse.

 

[James_2_24]

More on personal preference

I stated earlier that I don’t believe it is just preference… I believe there is “sacred music” appropriate for the mass. There are even some hymns that i don’t like at all … Doesn’t mean I want them to stop playing them in mass because I recognize the appropriateness of that particular hymn. So it is not just about preference…

 

[WhiteDove]

I love that song “Our God is an Awesome God”

I love “I am the Bread of Life”

I love “Amazing Grace”

I love" Salve Regina"

I love “Ava Maria”

I love “I the Lord of Wind and Rain”

I love “We are One in the Spirit”

 

[pnewton]

Georgiabirdie:

As a music minister, I may have a different about the music from up front rather than in the pew. I think guitar, when played properly, can be a beautiful encouragement to prayer and meditation, as well as singing.

I agree. We have a good reason for guitar masses at our parish. Out of 600 families, we have no one that plays organ or piano. It is guitar or nothing. Therefore a great emphasis is placed on keeping the music selection and style appropriate for liturgy.

Besides appropriateness, my second criteria is participation. If you can see 70-90% od the faithful singing, you have good song selection.

 

[WhiteDove]

No one plays the piano? Wow. You know, I think people ought to be getting their kids music lessons! My daughters are taking piano and my older one, age 10, really would like to play in church one day.

When the two of them played at the school talent show, people were rather amazed, not because they are great prodegies, but because there just aren’t too many kids around taking piano these days. I wonder why?