Praise and worship music for Mass?

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dcs:
I think the guitar qualifies as a “profane” instrument.
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What I have seen in this thread repeatedly is that so much is dependant on what on** thinks** is appropriate or profane. I totally agree with you we must be on guard to keep secularization out of the church, even if I do not totally agree with you on the definition. The very universality and longevity of the Church causes this to be an issue which constantly changes. Unforunately, it also means that we will not always agree. I would rather be in the Church founded by Jesus with people whom I fail to see eye to eye than in schism with a bunch of like minded individuals. I will perform my tasks to the best of my abilities with what talents and wisdom God choses to give me and trust all of you to do the same.
 
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WhiteDove:
You are saying a guitar is a profane instrument? I beg to differ. I own two beautiful Taylor guitars, one a six-stringed and one a twelve string. These are very fine, high quality instruments, and nobody would ever say that I play them in a profane manner.

Yes, Kurt Cobain plays the guitar in a profane manner, but to say that the guitar is a profane instrument is an incorrect description.
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I mean “profane” as opposed to “sacred,” not its modern meaning of “base” or “vulgar.”

The Church would describe Kurt Cobain’s playing as “sordid” rather than “profane.” 😉
 
Does any one else every make use of other instruments? I have had my daughter play flute and our youth choir has also used a violinist at times.

For those who have never heard anything uplifting on guitar. This past Holy Saturday our choir (all six of us) sang “Dona Nobis Pacem” in a three part round using mens voice’s, womens voice’s and a flute. Without a soft guitar in the background we could not have stayed on pitch as well and would not have sung this. We do the best with what we have. This is a memory I will always cherish.
 
When I pray Vespers with the Dominicans at Blessed Sacrament in Seattle, the priest who leads it plays a guitar to keep us all on pitch. Also, at their Sunday night Mass that I’ve gone to, they have the greatest music, which is accompanied by the guitar, a mandolin, I think a violin, etc. It’s very renassaince in it’s flavor. They do the ancient songs with great reverence there.
 
I think the key here is to remember the Mass and it’s purpose. Although I prefer “traditional” music at Mass, I don’t feel that it’s limited by the instruments per se. Given the purpose of the Mass, music with REVERENCE (generally not “exciting”) is most appropriate IMO. To say that the music should be limited to organs alone is difficult but perhaps worth some consideration? Now before anyone goes crazy and bombards me, let me explain.

There was a time when the official language of the Church was Latin. Contrary to popular protestant misconception, this was NOT to “hide” things from the congregation; it was to unify them with ONE language so that anywhere in the world they went, anytime they experienced the Mass, they would all be unified in understanding. There would be no confusion of interpretation as such. The Church went to great pains in educating everyone in Latin so as to maintain that unification. That “sameness” if you will, was lost, to some extent, when Mass in the vernacular became more the norm.

Theoretically, if this thinking were applied to liturgical music, would we not by extension have the same sort of unification?

Seriously, I’m asking some of you to thoughtfully consider this before you answer.

Division begins usually in tiny little cracks that swell as they begin naturally to be filled with the miscellaneous things that fall into them. After all, Martin Luther, Huss, Calvin and the lot were only trying to think of things “a little differently.” Is what’s happened and happening to our music over the years really that different from the Reformation? Is it one of those little cracks that allows all manner of stuff to be swept into it? Did we really think that Elvis’ swiveling hips would lead to Marilyn Manson?

Whew! …now I’m just scaring myself!
 
I do see what you’re saying, but how about the fact that the Church has deemed that it is no longer appropriate to have only Latin Masses? Doesn’t that kind of invalidate your arguement? To me it does. Because we do have Church-sanctioned variety in the language of the Masses, so why shouldn’t we have Church-sanctioned variety in music? I see that this argument doesn’t apply to every aspect of the Mass, so don’t jump on me, but I do think it applies here.

jp2fan
 
dcs said:
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P12MUSIC.HTM
  1. Besides the organ, other instruments can be called upon to give great help in attaining the lofty purpose of sacred music, so long as they play nothing profane, nothing clamorous or strident, and nothing at variance with the sacred services or the dignity of the place. Among these the violin and other musical instruments that use the bow are outstanding because, when they are played by themselves or with other stringed instruments or with the organ, they express the joyous and sad sentiments of the soul with an indescribable power. Moreover, in the encyclical Mediator Dei, We Ourselves gave detailed and clear regulations concerning the musical modes that are to be admitted into the worship of the Catholic religion.
  2. “For, if they are not profane or unbecoming to the sacredness of the place and function and do not spring from a desire to achieve extraordinary and unusual effects, then our churches must admit them, since they can contribute in no small way to the splendor of the sacred ceremonies, can lift the mind to higher things, and can foster true devotion of the soul.”
I think the guitar qualifies as a “profane” instrument.
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I don’t think that this quote mentions any profane instruments, only profane music.

I could imagine that one could play profane music on an organ and sacred music on an electric guitar…
 
JP2Fan, It is important to recognize the difference between something that the Church has deemed “no longer appropriate” to use your phrase, and allowances She’s made. The Church’s official stance on the matter of the use of Latin remains as it has always been. That is that Latin is still, and will always be, the recommended liturgical language. The allowance of the use of the local vernacular is just that, an allowance. Although She’s reached out to us in our lack of acceptance, it is not because She believes that we are correct.

I think the same is true of our liturgical music. In an attempt to help us along in our spiritual journey, the Church has reached out to us by expanding what CAN be used. It is my opinion that we have abused this gesture. The Church’s preferences are clearly as they have always been and that is that the Mass is to remain the same solemn celebration and sacrifice that was instituted by Christ.

Having been to Mass in other countries and other languages, the unity of the liturgical calender is significant and comforting. Knowing that I can go anywhere in the world and be literally on the “same page” as everyone else in the room is great. If no matter where I went I could also speak and understand the language, that would be even more unitive. Hearing Mass in Portuguese is beautiful, however, if when I went to ANY other country and was not only reading the same readings and experiencing the same liturgy but also in the same language…WOW! Clearly this was and is the intention of the Church. Apply this to our music and I think that it would only further the cause of unity.

In my earlier post, I thoerized that the Church’s original emphasis on teaching Latin could perhaps be applied to teaching a sameness in Liturgical music. Truly this is just a pondering. I accept ALL the teachings of the Church and as She has allowed the use of other forms of music in the liturgy, I have accepted it. I am not at liberty to question Her teaching. What I CAN question however, is the laity’s use or misuse of the liberty they’ve been afforded. To me this is very similar to other liturgical abuses that are so common.
 
Again, to quote the GIRM - "Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the Mass, with due consideration for the culture of the people and abilities of each liturgical assembly."

If there is no one in your liturgical assembly with the ability to play the organ but there are people with the ability to play the guitar, what do you do? :confused: It is ridiculous to say that the guitar should be considered a profane instrument - no matter how you mean it. I personally can’t really think of what could be a profane instrument - maybe a kazoo. :rolleyes: We have assembled a group of people in our church, young and old, to play some music at Christmas. We had flute, saxophone, clarinet, trumpet, and tuba (now there is some heavy metal for you). I am not saying we were the best in the world but we certainly tried to make a joyful noise for God. My daughter, a retired band director, and I played “Come Holy Ghost” as a flute trio for Confirmation. Guitar music can be just as reverent as any other music. Have you never heard classical guitar? You are talking about your specific preferences when it comes to music and your personal preference is not what it is about. Neither is my personal preference. It is about what is pleasing to God. And that is that we use our talents to praise Him in reverent, appropriate manner and there is no reason that cannot include guitar.
 
My Parish has a variety of Masses including Traditional, Latin, Spanish and Teen Life. I am enjoying spiritual benefits from singing the joyful Praise and worship music at the Teen Life Mass… However the guitar and drums are WAY too irreverent! My 3 young children have to hold their ears and I find it to be a distraction from the Mass. It isn’t the words of the music that is the problem it is the inappropriate usage of instruments. Although there may be a time when drums or an electric guitar could be appropriate I don’t think Mass should feel like a rock concert. The teen chior is amazing and they are obviously a tight group and very reverent, I don’t think they are intentionally creating a distraction with the choice of instruments, but I wish someone would step in and do a reverence check on the teen life Mass music, maybe supplement with an accusitc guitar and piano etc. and use the drums and electric guitar sparingly, to avoid the jarring nature them during critical parts of the Mass. I am under 30, by the way.
 
Why do people think that popular style music and guitars will necessarily appeal to young people? All three of my daughters hated it. They loved popular music in its proper context but in church they wanted music which was conducive to mystery and reverence.
 
The prevailing sentiment in the Byzantine Catholic Church is that no man-made musical instrument can possibly equal or even approach the instrument created by God Himself, the human voice, as a tool with which to worship and sing praise to the Almighty. For this reason, you will find no musical instruments - no guitars, no pianos, no organs - ever used as part of Byzantine Catholic worship.

This is not to say that worship in the Byzantine Catholic tradition is without music - *QUITE THE CONTRARY! *

The entire Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the standard format employed for the Eucharistic Celebration in the Eastern Catholic Church (what the Latins refer to as “Mass”), is a chant-based “call-and-response” between the priest/deacon and the congregation, employing standard melodic formats that have remained virtually unchanged for centuries! Even the Gospel reading is chanted as opposed to merely recited (this practice being instituted centuries ago as a means to communicate the Word of God in as pure and unaltered a form as possible, unenhanced by any subtle vocal inflections that a reader may inadvertantly introduce to the reading).

Led by a skilled cantor, the entire congregation in your typical Byzantine Catholic Church participates fully in the Liturgy. There is no sense of the Liturgy being a “performance” by the priest and a select group of music ministers, with the rest of the congregation along as passive spectators… ALL participate!

True… you won’t hear On Eagle’s Wings or Amazing Grace in a Byzantine Catholic Church… what you will hear, however, is the unified voice of the Byzantine faithful, some more technically adept than others, but ALL striving to achieve the same end - the Praise and Glory of our Almighty God and Father!

It’s truly something to experience!

a pilgrim
 
dcs said:
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P12MUSIC.HTM

I think the guitar qualifies as a “profane” instrument.
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What is it that makes a guitar profane? Is it the instrument itself or how it is employed?

Bowed instruments such as the violin are proposed as a suitably sacred, but a violin – the very same instrument – played in a particular fashion becomes a “fiddle.” Does that put fiddle music – but not guitar, banjo, or mandolin – on a par with violin or organ music?

During rehearsals when he gets bored, our organist sometimes goofs off by playing a traditional hymn like “Soul of My Savior” in the style of a Broadway show tune, or that wheezy canned organ music they’d play at the old skating rink. If you can’t quite imagine the effect, take my word for it: it’s not very reverent, even if it is being played on a organ. I attended a Mass in another parish recently where the style of the organ accompaniment (electric piano, actually – it’s a parish of very limited means) made me think I was in a cocktail lounge.

I’ve heard reverent, inspiring, worshipful music accompanied by organ and by guitar (with sprinklings of violin, trumpet, flute, recorder, and whatnot). I’ve also heard insipid, uninspiring, distracting-from-worship music in both forms.

Our Church is blessed with many musical expressions that can lift our hearts to God in many different ways. “Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring” wouldn’t be the same without the organ, but “Blest Be the Lord” loses its vitality without the guitar, and the poignancy of “Child of the Poor/What Child is This” is lost in the fullness of an organ accompaniment. The poetic lyrics of “Gift of Finest Wheat” stand up to any competent accompaniment, but I prefer “Panis Angelicus” a capella (in four-part harmony).

Deborah
 
Deborah,

Thanks for what I think is an excellent defense of a wide variety of musical styles and instruments, all of which may be sacred or profane. Someone will probably reply with the comment that Blest be the Lord does not belong in the Mass (I disagree), so I thought I would respond first, since I agree with what I understand to be your message. I agree that the specific music, or the instruments can enhance or detract from woship, depending on the people involved.
Ellen
 
IMHO, i have never found the organ to be particularly conducive to worship. The only churches i have ever seen that use them are Presbyterian, and (i repeat IMHO:twocents:) the hymns i have heard used with organs are attrocious. The acoustic guitar is probably the best worship instrument that there is.
An instrument itself cannot not bad for worship, it’s the style of music employed. Folk, blues, rock, punk, etc…these are styles of music inherently unsuitable for worship. Yes, they all happen to use guitars (often electric though), but that isn’t the guitar’s fault.😛

Interesting trivia: in the 17th century when the organ first began to be used in churches, it was widely criticized, because it was considered such a secular instrument. Might we not be seeing the same thing happen here with the classical guitar? At the very least, it makes me wonder what instrument was primarily used prior to the organ?? It couldn’t have been all a capella, surely not during the Renaissanse!
 
dcs said:
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P12MUSIC.HTM

I think the guitar qualifies as a “profane” instrument.
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**I can’t believe you actually said that! The guitar is an instrument…It can be played in a profane manner or a manner that is both reverent and respectful. **

I have heard beautiful guitar music in church, and terrible organ music…I sing, and have to say that it is much easier to sing with a piano, guitar and perhaps a flute than it is to follow an organ…The organ usually drowns out the singers (congregation and choir), and the chords are often hard to hear…That makes it tough for those of us who do harmony.

It is wrong to say that a whole class of any instrument is profane…And, I believe strongly that a couontry’s musical culture should definitely be taken into account when deciding what music/instruments should be used at Mass.

BTW…Drums are a fact of life in Africa…as are guitars in Mexico…How would you like it if someone said that because organs were a cultural thing in the US, they were wrong for Mass…Good grief!
 
While the phrase “praise and worship music” has been often used in this forum, I imagine that there is a wide variety of meanings intended. There are all sorts of misconceptions about this phrase:

“Praise” music is often used to refer to faster, more up-beat music.
“Worship” music is often used to refer to slower, more “reverent” music.

This is quite a silly distinction, for it ignores the actual meanings of the words “praise” and “worship”. Presumably, both of those types both praise and worship God!

I would contend that ancient hymns and chants should be properly classified as “praise and worship music”, unless we are to state that it is music which neither praises nor worships God.

As well, the common usage of the word “worship” entails a skewed understanding of “reverence”. We often think (or at least, I have talked to many that do) that reverence entails being quiet or other similar things. While being silent can be the response of the reverent heart, it is not necessary to the definition, at least not according to the dictionary:

1 : honor or respect felt or shown : DEFERENCE; especially : profound adoring awed respect

Merriam Webster Online Dictionary: reverence

Some of the most reverent music that I have ever heard – that is, music which led me towards giving God “profound adoring awed respect” – has been music in which organ (played in a traditional style with traditional tones), guitar and drums are used to play an “ancient” (maybe five hundred years old) hymn.
 
Good Morning Church

PRAISE AND WORSHIP MUSIC?

I always thought Praise and Worship music was sung or played to God not to all you folks sitting in the pews. That is exactly what Praise and Worship is.
You must have a very twisted view of Jesus if you think he wouldn’t love Praise and Worship no matter what intstrument is used.

I heard one time that God created us in His image and we have been working to create Him in ours ever since.

What is it about some folks that insist their way is the only way. I wish we had more real Praise and Worship music at Mass instead of some of the stuff I hear that only talks about Jesus or worse about the community.
 
Karl Keating said:
“So what are your opinions [of them]?”

Low.

I have yet to hear guitar music that was as appropriate, reverent, and uplifting as music from an organ or “music” from plainchant.

I had that opinion when I was under 20, and now I have it when I am over 50.
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As a non-Catholic teenager I fell in love with Gregorian Chant and still love it though I am over 60. Talk about standing the test of time!

As for the guitar/praise song mode, it seems that in the enthusiasm following the Second Vatican Council, and all the impetus towards making worship relevant to us instead of making ourselves relevant to God, people lost track of the difference between singing about Jesus around the campfire or on the church bus and sacred song in Sacred Liturgy. Mind you, nowhere in the documents of the Second Vatican Council (or anywhere else) does it say: Thou shalt conduct thy liturgy like a hootenanny. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
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mercygate:
As a non-Catholic teenager I fell in love with Gregorian Chant and still love it though I am over 60. Talk about standing the test of time!

As for the guitar/praise song mode, it seems that in the enthusiasm following the Second Vatican Council, and all the impetus towards making worship relevant to us instead of making ourselves relevant to God, people lost track of the difference between singing about Jesus around the campfire or on the church bus and sacred song in Sacred Liturgy. Mind you, nowhere in the documents of the Second Vatican Council (or anywhere else) does it say: Thou shalt conduct thy liturgy like a hootenanny. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Neither does it say that using a guitar is to conduct thy liturgy like a hootenanny.
 
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