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CB_Catholic
Guest
In reality, it has never been a problem, and I have no idea of what you mean by bullying. I think this subject is a molehill that has turned into a mountain, and I’ve said all I have to say about the subject.
"Praise and Worship" taking place in presence of the Blessed Sacrament
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LilyM
Guest
What bullying? There appears to be plenty of time each day available for the sort of silent prayer the OP wants - if anyone is being bullied it is these poor musical folks who apparently cannot even be allowed a few measly hours a week to do as they please without being criticized!
Let’s say you have two children who have very different tastes, and you want to take them on an outing - what do you do? Compromise. You can spend half the time doing what one child wants and half doing what the other child wants, or perhaps have an arrangement where one child chooses what to do this time if the other can choose what to do next time. It’s not bullying by any stretch of the imagination to allow each child to have their way for a time.
Your attitude is the one of the child who says ‘no, we’re not letting my brother or sister do what they want - not even for one or two hours a week. We’ve got to go where I wish and do as I wish even during those one or two hours.’
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pnewton
Guest
I have not** ever**, once said that these people should not be allowed to do what they want. In fact, to do so, would be bullying, that is, trying to impose one’s own will on another. Yet on the other hand, what they did also imposed their will on the OP, did it not? Rather what I said is exactly what you said. They need to compromise and allow both. However, you can not allow Eucharistic Adoration at the same time and place as a praise service, which is why such things are better scheduled.
Please do not accuse me of being childish.
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LilyM
Guest
You are acting as if there was a sign outside the door saying ‘Silent Adoration 8-10pm’ (and I’ve been to loads of times of exposition that at least at some point had Benediction, group rosary or whatnot that was other than totally silent) and this mob turned up at 9 and started playing with no permission and no warning.
If that were the case you would have a very valid point.
But I see no indication in anything the OP has said, nor in the signage, that this particular time was specifically reserved for his purpose.
If it was reserved for any purpose at all at that time, it was the purpose of the approved P + W gang, they being the ones who had sought and received permission to use it.
It’s kinda like having a movie theatre and expecting it to play nothing but silent movies all day every day, and getting upset that sometimes there are action flicks and sometimes romcoms or whatever. Heck, even ‘silent’ movies usually had a musical soundtrack to 'em, albeit played on an organ.
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Fan_of_Trent
Guest
This whole thread is not really about some sign or the scheduling or some other minute detail. Fundamentally, this is a debate about what constitutes due reverence in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. It’s a no win discussion. It comes down to a subjective opinion on whether you should and/or can perform “praise and worship” services (which has no specific definition in and of itself thereby limiting objective discussion) in the presence. IMHO the OP has a more traditional viewpoint on what constitutes due respect while others have a more progressive opinion on the same issue. I think most people could agree that at least a genuflection is proper, though this practice is even falling out of use in Churches unfortunately. Most who don’t probably weren’t taught to do so and may even wonder why someone would be genuflecting.
Personally, I side with the OP, but then again I generally favor more traditional practices all around. However, it seems that threads wherein the OP holds a “traditional” viewpoint that even suggests more progressive or modern practices are somehow wrong or out of line usually end up going sideways and rarely does the former party get anything other than uncharitable or skeptical responses from their fellow Catholics. Just my opinion though…
That said, from an objective “juridical” perspective the “praise and worship” service is probably permitted as just about anything can and is approved in liturgical settings, which seems to be the benchmark here. As such, the p &w folks aren’t doing anything wrong or inappropriate. Things have to get pretty wild before something is considered inappopriate or disrespectful to the Holy Eucharist these days. Just take a look at some of the creative masses one can find on youtube. I always say you can do many things - whether you should do them is a whole other ball game that nobody can win.
As far as debating the University’s policies and what may or may not have transpired - is that really an appropriate CAF topic?
God Bless.
Personally, I side with the OP, but then again I generally favor more traditional practices all around. However, it seems that threads wherein the OP holds a “traditional” viewpoint that even suggests more progressive or modern practices are somehow wrong or out of line usually end up going sideways and rarely does the former party get anything other than uncharitable or skeptical responses from their fellow Catholics. Just my opinion though…
That said, from an objective “juridical” perspective the “praise and worship” service is probably permitted as just about anything can and is approved in liturgical settings, which seems to be the benchmark here. As such, the p &w folks aren’t doing anything wrong or inappropriate. Things have to get pretty wild before something is considered inappopriate or disrespectful to the Holy Eucharist these days. Just take a look at some of the creative masses one can find on youtube. I always say you can do many things - whether you should do them is a whole other ball game that nobody can win.
As far as debating the University’s policies and what may or may not have transpired - is that really an appropriate CAF topic?
God Bless.
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pnewton
Guest
I might have gotten that side-track. I just think there should be a way to include everyone. I have never heard of Eucharistic Adoration being done like this, and it sure isn’t my cup of tea. I have two very nice places of Adoration available where one can sit with the Lord and have time to contemplate in silence. This generation is so busy. Our whole life is filled with noise and activity. We sometimes forget to shut up and listen. I would think this sort of spiritual contemplation would find some acceptance in a forum about traditional catholic spirituality.
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LilyM
Guest
And the OP has an equally nice place of Adoration available where he can sit with the Lord and contemplate in silence - the fact that there is a weekly p+w for an hour or two makes no more difference to that than the fact that his chapel might be closed during the night, or have Mass held in it daily or weekly, or have a daily or weekly group meeting there to pray the Rosary or the Liturgy of the Hours together. Or for that matter that other people might come in who sneeze and cough, wear squeaky shoes or have clanky jewellery or rosary beads.
The chapel is not his personal property, so he has only limited rights of access and limited say in how it operates.
And who says the lives of these young people are ‘filled with noise and activity’? I remember plenty of my time in college being spent in silence in the library reading through my texts, or writing papers, or in lecture halls waiting for lectures to start or for technical hitches with the equipment to be fixed. So plenty of time to shut up and think - and yes, to listen too.
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pnewton
Guest
Oh, I don’t know about them. I wouldn’t even begin to guess.
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clem456
Guest
As these children mature, they talk to one another and make practical arrangements, in the spirit of respect, compromise, amd sacrifice. They do not continue as self-centerd children, trying to impose their wants, need, and point of view on their siblings, and preserve their own status quo.
Respect for your fellow Catholics in practice requires dialogue, simple communication. If we’re willing to put forth the effort, getting to know these other people enriches us. We come to understand their points of view, see the value in their form of worship. If we cannot even do this simple task, the rest is pointless, we are simply using them as a pinata in our discussion of doctrine.
Someone should post a picture of these worshippers, we should meet them. OP, can you get us a picture of these people to go with the sign you posted?
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Cat
Guest
It’s possible that the physical arrangement of the room forces a certain seating arrangement which is not the ideal, but acceptable nonetheless.Singing songs about Jesus in His Real Presence? BLASPHEMY!
I attend a monthly Vigil Praise event with “Praise and Worship” songs that we sing in front of the Blessed Sacrament, and this takes place at a Seminary and is often led by the Archbishop/Auxiliary Bishop!
Though, from what the OP said, it seems as if the students were gathered around the musician(s) and not Christ, whereas it would be more appropriate to have the students focused on Christ with the musicians over to one side out of sight. That’s the only issue that I could see with the set-up.
I would want to know how old the chapel and the sign is. If both are many years old, it’s possible that the sign is out of date and no one has bothered to change it. I can understand why a “no singing” rule is posted–occasionally people enter our 24/7 Adoration Chapel and with good intentions, make their adoration audible. Unless a special time is set aside for singing, audible praying, etc., this is disturbing during what is supposed to be “silent” time.
I do know of some people in our parish who deliberately schedule their Adoration hour for the wee hours of the morning, when very few people are awake, and even fewer are adoring the Lord! The early morning adorers are usually alone in the Presence of the Lord, and are therefore able to worship the way they please, and they do–some will bring in music, some will sing, some will pace the room and pray aloud, and some will talk to the Lord out loud.
I think that’s a great way to do it, and I suggest that perhaps the OP would like to schedule their hour of adoration of the Lord at a time when they are fairly certain that no one else will be there to disturb their time with Jesus.
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Cat
Guest
I think it makes a lot of sense in a university setting to prominently post the “schedule” for the Adoration chapel, both in the chapel, on the website, and any other place where students and faculty are likely to read it (campus newspaper, student union bulletin board, etc.)
We have a “schedule” posted at our Adoration Chapel, which includes the days and times that the Chapel is closed for cleaning. There are times when various groups in the parish are scheduled for Adoration, and this is a good time NOT to come to the chapel (unless there is no other time for me) because the chapel is crowded and seats are at a premium.
It seems to me that without a public announcement of a praise and worship time, this will remain a “closed” circle of adorers. Perhaps that’s what they want and if so, they should post that–“Closed Meeting.” But I’m guessing that they would love to add to their number and have more adorers show up who want to adore the Lord Truly Present in singing and music.
It would be interesting to see if another group of students would enjoy a time of Gregorian chant in the Presence of Jesus.
I think that in the Catholic Church, those of us who enjoy contemporary music styles need to be aware and sensitive and accepting that other Catholics still find this offensive, and we need to be scrupulously careful to be courteous and accomodating to our brothers and sisters. Sometimes, those of us who love contemporary music develop an “in your face” attitude, and we try to force this music on others, almost daring others to challenge our “right” to play and sing.
I’ve seen this happen over and over in many Protestant churches and fellowships, and it generally causes a lot of hurt and eventual attrition of either the more traditional Christians, or the Christians who love contemporary music. This is sad, as surely we should not allow music to split us up and isolate us from each other.
In my mother’s church (Baptist), a world-famous musician was hired as the Music Minister, and he virtually eliminated all styles of “traditional” music, including locking up the organ (except during funerals and weddings at the request of the family). Many of the older people who had sung in the choir were asked to leave because they couldn’t manage to learn or sing the contemporary music. The older and middle-aged folks asked for some kind of traditional worship service, but the Music Minister turned a deaf ear to them. (Interestingly, none of the young people asked for traditional music). Instead, he added a “rock music” service to the roster, featuring a full rock band (not pop or praise).
Rather than getting involved in an all-out music war, many of the older and middle-aged folks left the church that they had attended since their childhood, and in many cases, the church that their parents and grandparents had attended. They headed “downtown” to the older mainline churches, which teach horribly liberal theology and politics, but at least still offer traditional music.
Sometimes I read posts on CAF in which people protest the importance that we place upon music. I maintain that in the United States, music is incredibly important, and for many people of all ages and nationalities and races, music is a deal maker or breaker. In my mother’s church, OLD PEOPLE (70s and older) considered music important enough that they were willing to sit through liberal sermons in order to listen to Bach on the organ and sing “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” during the worship service.
Anyway, I think it’s appropriate and KIND HEARTED for a Praise and Worship group to post a prominent sign announcing the days and times that they will be in the chapel. This would make it possible for those who are disturbed or upset by contemporary styles of music to assiduously avoid coming near the chapel at those time.
We should make every attempt to live in such a way that we bring peace and love to others, not upset and heartache to others.
I’m guessing, BTW, that the Praise and Worship group at this university has no intention of causing anyone any pain. They just don’t happen to have a “stage manager” in their midst, someone who is knowledgeable of the “practical” aspects of making music and who is capable of doing those mundane practical tasks (e.g., placing a public announcement in the various media sites) that make the group continue to thrive and grow without displacing others who are not interested in joining the group.
We have a “schedule” posted at our Adoration Chapel, which includes the days and times that the Chapel is closed for cleaning. There are times when various groups in the parish are scheduled for Adoration, and this is a good time NOT to come to the chapel (unless there is no other time for me) because the chapel is crowded and seats are at a premium.
It seems to me that without a public announcement of a praise and worship time, this will remain a “closed” circle of adorers. Perhaps that’s what they want and if so, they should post that–“Closed Meeting.” But I’m guessing that they would love to add to their number and have more adorers show up who want to adore the Lord Truly Present in singing and music.
It would be interesting to see if another group of students would enjoy a time of Gregorian chant in the Presence of Jesus.
I think that in the Catholic Church, those of us who enjoy contemporary music styles need to be aware and sensitive and accepting that other Catholics still find this offensive, and we need to be scrupulously careful to be courteous and accomodating to our brothers and sisters. Sometimes, those of us who love contemporary music develop an “in your face” attitude, and we try to force this music on others, almost daring others to challenge our “right” to play and sing.
I’ve seen this happen over and over in many Protestant churches and fellowships, and it generally causes a lot of hurt and eventual attrition of either the more traditional Christians, or the Christians who love contemporary music. This is sad, as surely we should not allow music to split us up and isolate us from each other.
In my mother’s church (Baptist), a world-famous musician was hired as the Music Minister, and he virtually eliminated all styles of “traditional” music, including locking up the organ (except during funerals and weddings at the request of the family). Many of the older people who had sung in the choir were asked to leave because they couldn’t manage to learn or sing the contemporary music. The older and middle-aged folks asked for some kind of traditional worship service, but the Music Minister turned a deaf ear to them. (Interestingly, none of the young people asked for traditional music). Instead, he added a “rock music” service to the roster, featuring a full rock band (not pop or praise).
Rather than getting involved in an all-out music war, many of the older and middle-aged folks left the church that they had attended since their childhood, and in many cases, the church that their parents and grandparents had attended. They headed “downtown” to the older mainline churches, which teach horribly liberal theology and politics, but at least still offer traditional music.
Sometimes I read posts on CAF in which people protest the importance that we place upon music. I maintain that in the United States, music is incredibly important, and for many people of all ages and nationalities and races, music is a deal maker or breaker. In my mother’s church, OLD PEOPLE (70s and older) considered music important enough that they were willing to sit through liberal sermons in order to listen to Bach on the organ and sing “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” during the worship service.
Anyway, I think it’s appropriate and KIND HEARTED for a Praise and Worship group to post a prominent sign announcing the days and times that they will be in the chapel. This would make it possible for those who are disturbed or upset by contemporary styles of music to assiduously avoid coming near the chapel at those time.
We should make every attempt to live in such a way that we bring peace and love to others, not upset and heartache to others.
I’m guessing, BTW, that the Praise and Worship group at this university has no intention of causing anyone any pain. They just don’t happen to have a “stage manager” in their midst, someone who is knowledgeable of the “practical” aspects of making music and who is capable of doing those mundane practical tasks (e.g., placing a public announcement in the various media sites) that make the group continue to thrive and grow without displacing others who are not interested in joining the group.
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denitaA
Guest
It seems to me that this thread is going “round and round” about this topic. So maybe it should be closed, but that’s not my call. All I’ll say is that I expected better from Trad Catholics, or at least someone coming to the OP’s defense.
BTW, Fish Eaters has limited posting to an extreme that you may as well not post at all unless you donate. Sorry, but that’s the case. I was removed from their list without any notification at all. The OP should feel free to post his opinion without others beating up on him. That’s just plain wrong.:tsktsk::blackeye:
BTW, Fish Eaters has limited posting to an extreme that you may as well not post at all unless you donate. Sorry, but that’s the case. I was removed from their list without any notification at all. The OP should feel free to post his opinion without others beating up on him. That’s just plain wrong.:tsktsk::blackeye:
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LucyLight
Guest
The OP seems pretty young but what he/she said was still pretty awful and should be corrected.
His/her issue is not with a scheduling conflict as the OP spent 30 minutes crying because “Christ was disrespected”.
The OP also said this," from my understanding, this was a pre-arranged event that will happen 9pm every Wednesday and they most likely have approval from Campus Ministry."
So that’s not the issue the issue is the disdain the OP has for praise & worship in front of the blessed sacrament. Look at some of these quotes below.
*" *I’m sorry, but since when has guitar music and hand waving been a part of the Catholic Liturgical tradition? I want to pray in a liturgical way that dates back to the eight century. Neither gymnastics nor Praise and Worship are a part of the Catholic Liturgical tradition."
"I’m disappointed if this is the current line of thought of “Traditional” Catholics, that there is nothing wrong with ignoring the Blessed Sacrament and that things such as healing Masses where people are “slain in the spirit” are pretend to speak in tongues are acceptable practices. I posted in this particular forum because I thought there would be people who would understand my concerns instead of the usual Modernist Catholics that fill our Church these days. I guess I was wrong."
So you are either a traditional catholic or a modernist catholic who “pretends to speak in tongues”(a horrible thing to say), and has healing masses where they are slain in the spirit.
I would suggest that the OP talk to a priest regarding the issue and not look for like minded people to encourage his bias.
His/her issue is not with a scheduling conflict as the OP spent 30 minutes crying because “Christ was disrespected”.
The OP also said this," from my understanding, this was a pre-arranged event that will happen 9pm every Wednesday and they most likely have approval from Campus Ministry."
So that’s not the issue the issue is the disdain the OP has for praise & worship in front of the blessed sacrament. Look at some of these quotes below.
*" *I’m sorry, but since when has guitar music and hand waving been a part of the Catholic Liturgical tradition? I want to pray in a liturgical way that dates back to the eight century. Neither gymnastics nor Praise and Worship are a part of the Catholic Liturgical tradition."
- “If they are allowed to close off the chapel and sing, why can’t I close off the chapel and practice gymnastics?”
- “Why is my gymnastics any less authentic than your praise and worship?” *
"I’m disappointed if this is the current line of thought of “Traditional” Catholics, that there is nothing wrong with ignoring the Blessed Sacrament and that things such as healing Masses where people are “slain in the spirit” are pretend to speak in tongues are acceptable practices. I posted in this particular forum because I thought there would be people who would understand my concerns instead of the usual Modernist Catholics that fill our Church these days. I guess I was wrong."
So you are either a traditional catholic or a modernist catholic who “pretends to speak in tongues”(a horrible thing to say), and has healing masses where they are slain in the spirit.
I would suggest that the OP talk to a priest regarding the issue and not look for like minded people to encourage his bias.
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pnewton
Guest
This bias is an acceptable bias. No Catholic has to embrace all forms of Catholic spirituality. If one finds the older more traditional forms of Catholic spirituality more edifying and more robust forms of spirituality irritating, that is totally acceptable, though it is not right to criticize those who are different. If the OP came across harsh, I am of the opinion that a harsh response is still inappropriate.
I note that Cat once again came through with some practical suggestions in a spirit of helpfulness.
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LucyLight
Guest
Yes, a prefrence is acceptable. You can certainly prefer one form of worship over another, and even not like some forms of worship. The OP came across as more than harsh. The OP said that the students form of worship was disrespectful and then went on to mock them and everyone else who isn’t a traditonal catholic. Hopefully, the OP will find peace in knowing that there are many forms of prayer that are respectful and not get so upset about this in the future.
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thewanderer
Guest
This is the central issue. And in order to address this correctly it is important to figure out exactly what reverence is. Reverence is an interior state of a person which they manifest in an exterior manner. It is because reverence is essentially an interior state that it becomes such a subjective, and sensitive, topic. When people start accusing others of being irreverent based on the external actions of those involved it can get dicey because reverence does not consist of external actions (even though it is closely connected with them). So, for the OP and others like him who find this kind of worship troubling, the important thing to realize is that there are many many good Catholics who insist that they find this kind of worship reverent and that they participate in it in a very reverant manner. Are we to assume that they are all lying? Or should we perhaps be willing to widen our horizens and realize that, although we might not be able to participate in this kind of worship in a truly reverant state it is quite possible that others might be able to. The reason being, for us this kind of external activity is not connected with reverance, and, at times, seems contradictory to the kinds of external manifestations which we connecct with reverance. So, when we get too caught up in linking reverance to external signs we lose sight of the fact that ultimately reverance is an internal state. It is possible that there are many people who view these external manifestations as an excellent way to express their reverance. And so, it is natural and fitting for such people to participate in this kind of worship.
Also, before anyone tries to flame me for coming at this with the attitude that externals don’t matter, or to claim that I am saying that absolutely anything goes in front of the blessed sacrament, I assure you I am not. While there is some subjectivity on this issue it is hardly a matter of anything goes. It depends, in a very objective way, on which external actions are truly seen and felt to be external manifestations of reverance by various people. And while it is pretty easy for someone to come along and make a claim that some gesture is a sign of reverance for him when it is just something he made up, it seems harder for a whole segment of our culture to come out and say that they find this particular kind of activity reverant and to all be lying about it and just making it up. (And yes, this was something that was introduced and new at some point, but by now it is something that many people have grown up with. It might be a new culture, but it is still the culture within which many people have been brought up.)
If someone grew up in a culture where reverance is shown through prostration then they will see prostration as the correct sign of reverance, and would likely find people kneeling to be offensive because, to them, it would seem irreverant. Similarly, those who are used to kneeling and silence as the external manifestation of reverance find it difficult to understand how other exterior manifestations could possibly be reverant. People on both sides of this issue need to learn to be understanding of where the others are coming from. Those think it is irreverant need to learn to recognize that it is a sign of reverance from a different culture than they grew up in, those who feel like they are being accused of irreverance need to learn to understand just exactly why others feel they are being irreverant so that they do not overreact but instead can kindly and charitably explain why these differences in forms of worship exist and are both legitimate and reverant for those involved.
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LucyLight
Guest
Thewanderer,well said and thought out. Your post is very helpful, I hope it gets a lot of views.
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TrueLight
Guest
I hope TimothyH is reading this.
Sometime last year he suggested that I check out Catholic Underground run by the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal.
Well, a priest suggested that I check it out and tonight I did.
Let me just say it was beautiful.
There were so many people there.
We started out by praying “Evening Prayer” not in a tone I’ve ever heard. But everyone sang along. Then the light went out and the Franciscans played their guitars and sang praise and worship songs while people knelt and sang along or not.
It felt very comfortable to me. very familiar. Now that might be because I grew up singing these type of contemporary gospel songs and the service felt very Protestant.
I don’t know. I just know that it was great.
I only stayed for an hour, but I think I’m going to go again.
Sometime last year he suggested that I check out Catholic Underground run by the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal.
Well, a priest suggested that I check it out and tonight I did.
Let me just say it was beautiful.
There were so many people there.
We started out by praying “Evening Prayer” not in a tone I’ve ever heard. But everyone sang along. Then the light went out and the Franciscans played their guitars and sang praise and worship songs while people knelt and sang along or not.
It felt very comfortable to me. very familiar. Now that might be because I grew up singing these type of contemporary gospel songs and the service felt very Protestant.
I don’t know. I just know that it was great.
I only stayed for an hour, but I think I’m going to go again.
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Contarini
Guest
Because you clearly don’t, in fact, think gymnastics (or “praise and worship”) is an appropriate form of worship. So quite obviously that would be inauthentic. You’re making up a fake example, which is as inauthentic as you can get.
I also notice that you keep switching back and forth between two different objections:
- The claim that this chapel has been set aside for quiet prayer, and so a more boisterous form of worship is inappropriate; and
- The claim that this form of worship has no place in Catholicism.
Edwin
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bearer
Guest
:bowdown:
If these people have permission to engage in praise and worship, I don’t see the problem. There’s more to our faith than a sign outside of the chapel. I can’t help but think of all the times in the Gospels in which people would throw themselves at Christ’s feet only to be told to stand up and face Him.
I used to attend a monthly Taizé Holy Hour during the day-long Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament at my last parish, and I can assure you that people there were reverent in the highest degree, praying, singing, playing music, lighting candles, etc.
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