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Lorrie
Guest
AND in Little Rock, AR no less. Who would’ve thought it!!I’m jealous.IMHO, very reverent = very uncontemporary. It’s nice to see that this is happening somewhere in this country!
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robertaf
Guest
How interesting you took my post personal. I guess I should go back and read what you wrote.I haven’t put the Church in a small box nor do I dare stifle the Holy Spirit. I don’t appreciate the accusation that I have done either. The ideal Diocese in my opinion would have all of the same type of Mass. We are supposed to be the universal Church aren’t we? I know you’ll probably bring up the Eastern Rites here. They are different, but their liturgical traditions are apostolic. Contemporary/Charismatic are not.The ideal Mass in my opinion and in the opinion of many others would be to find the true reforms of Vatican II. Vernacular is fine. Latin was once the vernacular language and that’s why it was chosen to begin with. However, it has been part of the Church for so long that it is also a holy language and we need to incorporate much more of it into the Mass than is typically being done. Also, there needs to be more liturgical continuity between the Tridentine and Novus Ordo Masses. I would bet that if we brought back any pre-Vatican II saints that they wouldn’t recognize the Mass for what it is. They may even suspect it to be a Lutheran service.I think that our German Shepherd realizes this and has a vision to correct it. Like I said before, the liturgy isn’t just something we make up but rather something that’s handed down and that’s why we need to have more continuity between the old and new Mass. For example, I think (and so does Pope Benedict) that it would be a good idea to return to the practice of having the priest face the altar rather than the people. There is no historical precedent for this. It was just made up. We should not be abandoning any traditions* for mere convenience. I have confidence that all the bugs will be worked out. I do not fear for the Church, for she is eternal.
- “If anyone rejects any written or unwritten tradition of the church, let him be anathema.” -Fourth Anathema of the Second Council of Nicaea (787A.D.)
The fact is, I saw how long yours was and passed over it without reading it.
I was referring to some of the other posters.
Whether you take offence or not, I do disagree with the one quoted here.
But that’s what makes the world go round, different points of view.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
I didn’t mean to lash back like that, but yours came almost right after mine and when you said:
I thought you were referring to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Take care & God bless!
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Pope Calls for More Efforts in Liturgical Music
In a Message to Experts Gathered at the Vatican
VATICAN CITY, DEC. 5, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI appealed for greater attention to sacred liturgical music, in a message sent to the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments.
In his brief message to Cardinal Francis Arinze, the Pope greeted the participants in a day of study organized today by that Vatican dicastery on the topic “Sacred Music: A Liturgical and Pastoral Challenge.”
The congress was responding to Pope John Paul II’s desire, expressed in a 2003 chirograph, in which he called the dicastery to intensify its efforts in the field of sacred liturgical music.
“Echoing the call of my beloved predecessor, I would like to encourage those who cultivate sacred music to continue this journey,” said Benedict XVI said.
In particular, the Holy Father suggested that the Vatican congregation reflect “on the relationship between music and liturgy, while remaining attentive to practical applications and experimentation, and maintaining constant understanding and collaboration with national episcopal conferences.”
When opening the congress, Cardinal Arinze explained: “Sacred music must be in accord with the grandeur of the liturgical act that celebrates the mysteries of Christ; it must be characterized by a sense of prayer, beauty and dignity.”
Vatican Radio quoted him saying: “In no way must it give way to shallowness, superficiality or theatricality.”
ZE05120506
In a Message to Experts Gathered at the Vatican
VATICAN CITY, DEC. 5, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI appealed for greater attention to sacred liturgical music, in a message sent to the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments.
In his brief message to Cardinal Francis Arinze, the Pope greeted the participants in a day of study organized today by that Vatican dicastery on the topic “Sacred Music: A Liturgical and Pastoral Challenge.”
The congress was responding to Pope John Paul II’s desire, expressed in a 2003 chirograph, in which he called the dicastery to intensify its efforts in the field of sacred liturgical music.
“Echoing the call of my beloved predecessor, I would like to encourage those who cultivate sacred music to continue this journey,” said Benedict XVI said.
In particular, the Holy Father suggested that the Vatican congregation reflect “on the relationship between music and liturgy, while remaining attentive to practical applications and experimentation, and maintaining constant understanding and collaboration with national episcopal conferences.”
When opening the congress, Cardinal Arinze explained: “Sacred music must be in accord with the grandeur of the liturgical act that celebrates the mysteries of Christ; it must be characterized by a sense of prayer, beauty and dignity.”
Vatican Radio quoted him saying: “In no way must it give way to shallowness, superficiality or theatricality.”
ZE05120506
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Orionthehunter
Guest
Being the Universal Church doesn’t imply total uniformity but total Unity. I’m an advocate of different “flavors” within the Church (different Rites), within Dioceses (accommodations to parish primarily composed of Hispanics vs. Anglos), and within Parishes (very traditional Mass at one time, contemporary Mass at another time, and maybe a combination at another time).
At my Parish, we occassionally go the 8:00 a.m. Mass with my Aunt. The quiet contemplative attitude is very evident. But my high school daughters like the contemporary 11:00 a.m. Mass where the joy and energy is also very evident. Personally, my wife and I are in-between where we like the combination. But all three Masses are equally reverrent toward the Eucharist.
IMHO, advocates of total uniformity on both sides of question need to have greater charity and empathy. The spiritual needs and modes of expression of mature person are significantly different from a young person. Failure to understand and accommodate the other perspective fosters disunity and disregard.
I have a daughter going to college next year. Despite confidence that my wife and I have done the best we can to bring her up in the faith (Catholic education, family prayer life, regular Mass attendence, involvement in Christian service and parish activities), we understand that the vertical worship style of other faiths and their outward enthusiasm appeals to a person with her disposition and attitude of joyful worship. If the Catholic Church at her college were designed to meet the needs of a more mature person, she could become mislead. Fortunately, the colleges she is considering either have a Newman Center, a near-by parish that has Masses focused toward young people or is a Catholic University. We have attended Masses at all three colleges and are comforted that she is excited by all three from a worship standpoint.
But if the Masses were like our parish’s 8:00 a.m. traditional Mass, we fear that she would lapse in her attendence. I have total trust in the Eucharist and its graces. If my daughter does nothing more than attend Mass during these years, I know she will have the Graces necessary to stay on a path to Christ.
In our zeal to correct liturgical abuses, we need to be sensitive to the specific needs of different people at different stages in their life by recalling the Woman at the Well story in the Gospels. Excessive zeal for uniformity can be the seeds to greater disunity.
At my Parish, we occassionally go the 8:00 a.m. Mass with my Aunt. The quiet contemplative attitude is very evident. But my high school daughters like the contemporary 11:00 a.m. Mass where the joy and energy is also very evident. Personally, my wife and I are in-between where we like the combination. But all three Masses are equally reverrent toward the Eucharist.
IMHO, advocates of total uniformity on both sides of question need to have greater charity and empathy. The spiritual needs and modes of expression of mature person are significantly different from a young person. Failure to understand and accommodate the other perspective fosters disunity and disregard.
I have a daughter going to college next year. Despite confidence that my wife and I have done the best we can to bring her up in the faith (Catholic education, family prayer life, regular Mass attendence, involvement in Christian service and parish activities), we understand that the vertical worship style of other faiths and their outward enthusiasm appeals to a person with her disposition and attitude of joyful worship. If the Catholic Church at her college were designed to meet the needs of a more mature person, she could become mislead. Fortunately, the colleges she is considering either have a Newman Center, a near-by parish that has Masses focused toward young people or is a Catholic University. We have attended Masses at all three colleges and are comforted that she is excited by all three from a worship standpoint.
But if the Masses were like our parish’s 8:00 a.m. traditional Mass, we fear that she would lapse in her attendence. I have total trust in the Eucharist and its graces. If my daughter does nothing more than attend Mass during these years, I know she will have the Graces necessary to stay on a path to Christ.
In our zeal to correct liturgical abuses, we need to be sensitive to the specific needs of different people at different stages in their life by recalling the Woman at the Well story in the Gospels. Excessive zeal for uniformity can be the seeds to greater disunity.
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cheddarsox
Guest
This got me thinking…I wonder what Jesus did during the Last supper, If He faced the Apostles or if he faced away and offered Himself up to God. Is the Eucharist more in the style of the Last supper or the Crucifixion? I really don’t know.
cheddar
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totustuusmaria
Guest
From Spirit and the Liturgy:
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Elzee
Guest
I’m going to have to buy ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’. In the past 10 years I have never heard our priest talk about the sacrifice of the Mass…it’s always ‘the meal’. I like the point Cardinal Ratzinger makes above.
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jax8686
Guest
Time for an annoying kid to give his opinion:
honestly, mass for anyone under 20ish where you have old women and organs is about as comfortable as shoving pins under your nails… im not saying anything bout the mass itself, i mean the music… this i would refer to as “That abomination [that] needs to stop!”… first of all, in the old testament they are constantly talking abotu drums, guitars, cymbols, harps, lyres, flutes, also clapping, singing, shouting to God, lifting hands… and OMG!!! they did that around the ARK… what an abuse!!! honestly, where did God say “worship me with wavering old voices and organs?” ( i mean no offence to any elder people) we constantly get yelled at for the way we can feel closest to God, where we are just expected to fall in line with the way our parents, grandparents, etc did it… the Mass is the mass, the part of Jesus up there should and will stay that way, we dont want anythign different… but honestly, an upbeat praise song that will get people awake and alive, that will let them allow the Holy Spirit to flood the room, and even help some of the Gifts of the Spirit show up (and anyone who says thats bad should reread like ALL of acts, maybe 1 Cor as well)… these kinds of things alow us to get involved, to deepen our love for Jesus… i know i know i know ,“Be still and know that I am God” very good verse out of the bible… and there are tiems to be quiet, but there are times to praise God with everything you have… why cant they be in the same building, within the same 1 hour span? and just about the comment about the worship leader… one, they are the worship team leader, their goal is to Worship God, and help others do so. the priest is most definietly the worship leader of the Mass, but most priests know very little about the musical praise that God told us about thousands of years ago…worship leaders are ‘musical worship leaders’, they lead the musical worship…
ok, go ahead and yell at me for my opinion… God is listening too…
honestly, mass for anyone under 20ish where you have old women and organs is about as comfortable as shoving pins under your nails… im not saying anything bout the mass itself, i mean the music… this i would refer to as “That abomination [that] needs to stop!”… first of all, in the old testament they are constantly talking abotu drums, guitars, cymbols, harps, lyres, flutes, also clapping, singing, shouting to God, lifting hands… and OMG!!! they did that around the ARK… what an abuse!!! honestly, where did God say “worship me with wavering old voices and organs?” ( i mean no offence to any elder people) we constantly get yelled at for the way we can feel closest to God, where we are just expected to fall in line with the way our parents, grandparents, etc did it… the Mass is the mass, the part of Jesus up there should and will stay that way, we dont want anythign different… but honestly, an upbeat praise song that will get people awake and alive, that will let them allow the Holy Spirit to flood the room, and even help some of the Gifts of the Spirit show up (and anyone who says thats bad should reread like ALL of acts, maybe 1 Cor as well)… these kinds of things alow us to get involved, to deepen our love for Jesus… i know i know i know ,“Be still and know that I am God” very good verse out of the bible… and there are tiems to be quiet, but there are times to praise God with everything you have… why cant they be in the same building, within the same 1 hour span? and just about the comment about the worship leader… one, they are the worship team leader, their goal is to Worship God, and help others do so. the priest is most definietly the worship leader of the Mass, but most priests know very little about the musical praise that God told us about thousands of years ago…worship leaders are ‘musical worship leaders’, they lead the musical worship…
ok, go ahead and yell at me for my opinion… God is listening too…
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
The Mass is most definitely a sacrifice. Most people don’t seem to know this probably because of poor post-V2 catechesis. The Mass as a sacrifice is why I have a problem with all the ‘praise and worship’ nonsense. (Oh, and by the way, I’m a teenager too
) The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary. Unless the music/atmosphere of the Mass has the demeanor that would appropriately go with being at the Crucifixion, then I don’t feel that it is admissable. Most of the contemporary stuff would fall into this category as these Masses tend to be more for entertainment than anything (which leads us to implicitly worshiping the performers rather than God). Yes, I have experienced them, so don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. WYD was a mess as I noted in one of my earlier posts. If you wouldn’t do it at the foot of the cross as Our Lord hung there suffering, then don’t do it at Mass! Also, as I’ve said before, this contemporary praise & worship atmosphere has a time and place, but not at the Mass. Finally, I don’t think that the Church should be catering to our wants and desire for the way the Mass is done. The Church should return more to the Latin and “old school” Masses that had so much more reverence. No, I’m not a scismatic traditionalist or anything, I’d just like to see some continuity in the liturgies from the Tridentine to the Novus Ordo. After all, as Owen Chadwick said in The Reformation:“Liturgies are not made; they grow in the devotion of centuries.”
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palmas85
Guest
Wow, what memories this post brings back. 1967, I was a young man in my teenage years, and there was a movement about called the Children of God. We called them Jesus freaks. Great group of people, definitely true to their beliefs weird as they were, and they used to hand out pamphlets, I wish I had kept some. They said basically the same thing about music in the mass!!! We needed to get closer to God the way out ancestors did, we neded to go back to a purer time. Great meetings, lots of cute girls, they really worked us good. I’m surprised though that anyone would still try to bring the Old Testament into these arguments
The Old Testament also calls for ritual sacrifice, death by stoning for homosexuals, adulterers and the like and prohibits the eating of shellfish, no more shrimp scampi for anyone. :bigyikes:
It’s good to remember that just because it is in the Old Testament doesn’t make it right, remember the daughters of Lot. Various radical groups through history have tried to justify incest because of that episode. It is also good to remember that Christ came to establish the New Covenant, the New and Everlasting Covenant
The Mass is not for entertainment, it is the unbloody re-presentation of the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. Please try to remember that
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Servus_Pio_XII
Guest
The choir…you say they are from Sussex? I may have to consider moving there, I’ve always liked Sussex:
*God gives all men all Earth to love,
but since mans heart is so small,
Ordains for each one spot shall prove,
Beloved over all.
Each to his choice, and I rejoice,
The lot has fallen unto me,
In a fair ground, in a fair ground,
Yea, Sussex by the sea.*
-Kipling
*God gives all men all Earth to love,
but since mans heart is so small,
Ordains for each one spot shall prove,
Beloved over all.
Each to his choice, and I rejoice,
The lot has fallen unto me,
In a fair ground, in a fair ground,
Yea, Sussex by the sea.*
-Kipling
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jax8686
Guest
palmas85, i would like to konw when I, or anyone else, ever suggested that contemporary worship was a form of entertainment? i apologize if i cant feel close to God singing old hymns that have been around for a hundred generations… actually, i dont apologize, i have nothing to apologize for. i am sorry that everyone is sooo closed to God, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit working in ways that havent been done before. since when did Jesus stick to the old ways of doing things? since when did Jesus conform with everyone else? since when did the apostles go quietly through their days? since when were catholics not supposed to worship the Holy Spirit the same as God, and Jesus? cuz everythign that tends to lean towards the Holy Spirit is looked upon as ‘demonic’ ‘distracting’ ‘taking away from the mass’ ‘out of place’ ‘not normal’… since when was Jesus normal? and what was the point of Jesus sending the Advocate to us if we wont accept him? does the Holy Spirit work any less now than He did then? should we not all pray in the Spirit, or prophecy, or heal? alot has been faded out over time because we need to be silent and reverent all the time… Catholics need to accept the fact that God wants us to work in more ways than one… not every person is the same, every person is Unique!!! so why are you all so scared of difference? as i was saying before, i dont feel close to God singing old hymns… but with a decent beet, maybe some skilled musicians (with Gifts from God to play those instruments), i can sing modern songs, teling Jesus that he is my best friend, that he is an awesome God, that i will follow him all day, that now that he is near my life has changed and ill never be the same… what is wrong with praising that He is that One Way, or that i love Him more than life, or that He is King of Majesty, everything to me, all i want, all i need… people need to stop using traditions as excuses to not allow God to work in any differnet ways… read Matt 15… im not saying that all things should change, nothing should change, but there is more than one way to do some things… and to be honest, if we could go back to when He was on the cross, i would be standing there, singing at the top of my lungs jumping up and down, praising His name and telling people about all of the great things He is, can do, will do… I love my Lord Jesus Christ, and i know He loves me… every man does not show how he loves his wife the same way… nor every woman her husband… nor does my generation do things the way their parents did things…and their parents and their parents… 50 years ago the music changed, and it was scandelous… it changes all the time, and each previous generation hates it… so be it… but dont try and stop people form praising God…
“But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.” Mark 9:39…
Criticize if you want… but anyone who honestly praises God cannot be against Him…
“But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.” Mark 9:39…
Criticize if you want… but anyone who honestly praises God cannot be against Him…
J
jax8686
Guest
one more thing, palmas85… we are no longer following the levitical law of the OT… we are still bound by the moral laws… having said that, forms of praising fall under… well, neither of those… the daughters of Lot: their actions are directly talked about in the moral laws. homosexuals and adulterers being stoned is levitical law… stop trying to make excuses… i have to deal with enough of that from my pentacostal girlfriend…
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cheddarsox
Guest
Thank you so much! That was very helpful.
cheddar
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Surely no stifling is intended 
- apart from that, I definitely agree
If the Church is Catholic (= universal) in reality, and if “Catholic” is not a mere label being used to exclude others, why can’t all styles of worship be acceptable ? That would show the universality of the CC. ISTM that the Church would be greatly enriched by allowing (say) a “Presbyterian Use” worship. The Church is not a monolith, but a living & dynamic organism. Therefore, there may well more than one legitimate way to worship God in His Church. There is more than one way - not all Rites are the same; yet they are all Rites in the CC. ##
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JSmitty2005
Guest
Like I’ve said before:
JSmitty2005:
There is nothing wrong with different rites, however, they should be be of apostolic origin and not spontaneously orchistrated in the 21st century. Of course reforms have to be made (like you said, “organic”), but changes should never been made to the extent that the previous Mass is unrecognizable in the new one. To do so would be to reject the Holy Spirit’s work in this organic growth that you speak of.
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palmas85
Guest
What in the worls are you talking about?
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palmas85
Guest
Why get so defensive? Because I said something you didn’t like? I just confirmed we went through this same old tired rigamarole in the mid to late 60’s. Nothing different, same arguments, same questioning of the old ways, everything. It is not unique to your generation even though you may think it is. It didn’t work then any better than it works now.
As to the Old Testament, if you are going to bring up bits and pieces and say that they are relevent, them why not bring up the whole thing and say it is relevent as well. You cannot pick and choose which you will accept. There is a group that does that and has done it since the days of the Reformation. They are called Protestants.
And as I understand the Catholic faith, God, Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit are ONE nature manifested in three distinct persons. There is no need to separate them, they are equal and the same.
And while I have no doubt as to your sincerity, I think it is a little presumptuous to say that you would do something at the Crucifixtion that none of the Apostles did, or the Blessed Virgin or anyone that was there.
And in conclusion, Christ Jesus is not my bud, my bro or my homie. He is not my best friend. He is my LORD my MASTER and the means of my salvation. I bow down to HIM, and worship HIM and adore HIM I am not his equal in any way shape or form.
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silverwings_88
Guest
Gottle of Geer said:## Surely no stifling is intended
If the Church is Catholic (= universal) in reality, and if “Catholic” is not a mere label being used to exclude others, why can’t all styles of worship be acceptable ? That would show the universality of the CC. ISTM that the Church would be greatly enriched by allowing (say) a “Presbyterian Use” worship. The Church is not a monolith, but a living & dynamic organism. Therefore, there may well more than one legitimate way to worship God in His Church. There is more than one way - not all Rites are the same; yet they are all Rites in the CC. ##
I thought contemporary masses were those of the Novus Ordo?
Anyways, I do agree. I mean, we already have the validity of other rites within the Catholic church without having any superiority or inferiority between them all. And with that variety is the availability of different styles of worship. The raising of the hands as a Charismatic is no different than that of Modern Christians with clasped hands or Traditionals with palm-to-palm clasping… They all are acceptable as a small means of connection of reality from the Divine to the Human.
These masses all still connect with reverence, especially to the Eucharist. How much do I love it when people pray in tongues in a quiet, distilled manner before the Holy Eucharist as much as the next who reverently bows their head in prayer position. Our Church is a changing Church, a catalyst that forever stands amidst the hourglass of time. That is one reason why I like these variated masses; Catholicism is nicer with cultural integration rather than assimilation in cultures.
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