Pray and fast for conversion of James White

[Church_Militant]

So, that’s your answer, “Uh,…because it is”. And how did you come to that conclusion?

My point is, I’ve been reading a lot of the postings on this web site about how the RC church is the only “true” church. Again, just by making such a statement doesn’t make it valid.

True…but when there is so much scripture that validates Catholic belief as opposed to n-C beliefs that have only been around for some 500 years or so, the Catholic Church buries the cases of n-C interpretations.

Where in scripture is your proof.

First off… nowhere in the Word of God does it say that everything that Christians believe has to be spelled out in the Bible. In fact there is a very substantial case for Sacred Tradition that is made in the Word of God.

Apparently, it is Tradition that is the source of doctrines which are clearly not taught in the Bible but which the Catholic Church still says are implicit within its text and elucidated through Apostolic Tradition.

Clearly in your interpretation perhaps, but that does not invalidate the teachings of the Catholic Church over the 2,000 years of Christian history.When there is more than ample evidence both from the New Testament and from the writings of the early church that plainly show that they were Catholic in their beliefs and that the beliefs of modern post reformation doctrinal step children do not align with either the New Testament or the Early Church’s writings, who do you think I’m going to believe?

Some of them are as follows: The Mass, Penance, Veneration of Mary, Purgatory, Indulgences, the Priesthood, the Confessional, the Rosary, Venial and Mortal Sins, and statues in the Church.

Nice scattergun.

Too bad there are articles that refute every one of your opposing views on those topics on the CA Mainsite Library and they are nothing new.

The issue is whether or not these teachings of the Roman Catholic Church are credible.

More credible than the myriad of doctrinal confusion that passes for n-C Christianity.

Do they accurately represent Christianity?

Indeed they do.

Can they be substantiated with the Bible?

In 99.99% of the time they can indeed. The other percent is based of Christian history and tradition, and since the Word of God does not teach that it is the sole authority for all that Christians believe, that is no problem…except perhaps for those adhering to an errant doctrine that says that the Bible is the sole authority…but even that is not agreed upon as to what that means as we have found here again and again.

Or do they contradict the Bible?

There is not a single Catholic teaching that contradicts the Bible.

It may contradict your personally held interpretation of something, but that does not invalidate the truth.

All I’m saying is show me.

Knock yourself out. Most of your so called objections would fall apart if you actually looked into what the Catholic Church really teaches, but don’t come in here expecting us to play by your rules.

The first thing you have to understand is that we do not believe in any form of the n-C doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

If we are to be seekers of the truth what better place to find it then in God’s Word.

See most all of my post above…

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[ccfbob]

Originally posted by ThankfulServant :

1. Where in scripture is your proof.

1. Apparently, it is Tradition that is the source of doctrines which are clearly not taught in the Bible but which the Catholic Church still says are implicit within its text and elucidated through Apostolic Tradition.

Some questions/answers are as follows:

1. Where does the Bible say That Scripture is the only source for proof?
2. Additional references to Catholic Traditions you forgot to include: The Bible, The Trinity, Worship on Sundays, Manogonomy, Celebration of Christ’s Birth (Christ-MASS),shall I go on? You see you can not get around it if you are consistant with your logic. Many acts of Christian Worship or Faith life are rooted in Catholic Traditions. If properly understood, investigated and reconsiled with the whole of the Bible, ALL Catholic traditions are in Harmony with Scripture. :newidea:

Please address at least item number one. I look forward to your answer.

Oh, BTW, the Bible, God’s Infallible Word, Also Catholic Tradition. Boy, we should have Copywrited that concept!

 

[Church_Militant]

I am not here to “witness” to Catholics.

Geez. Silliness.

Yes. I do not try to convert any Catholics to join my church. That is nonsense.

Nor do I try to convert Catholics at all, unless they are without faith in Christ…as many, many Catholics are.

In your almighty opinion perhaps… Why aren’t you posting over at Internet Infidels Forums…since that is a forum specifically for unbelievers?

C’mon that just doesn’t hold true Atemi. Most of you posts at CARM are in the Catholic forum and then you come here.

Talk about silliness…

As for faithful Catholics, they should already

be converted.No… really?

You’re not truly praying for anyone’s conversion

, but that they will become Roman Catholic.And that is perfectly fine. If people don’t want Catholics praying for their conversion to Catholicism then there’s a really simple way to fix that.
**
Stop hassling Catholics and trying to convert them away from their faith!**

The problem is that too many have no clue what the difference is

.In your rather highly biased opinion…

Very self centered, IMO.

Hang on. Lemme get out my “concernometer” and check it. Nope… the needle failed to budge even so much as a micro-give-a-rip.

You literally got millions of Catholics in the world who are not even converted for Christ

, but they are fine as they are already Catholic.I rest my case! This is in your scholarly opinion. Do you personally know all these “literally got millions of Catholics in the world”? If not you have just made (another) rash generalization. How is that remark justifiable?

Who said that? Nowhere in Catholic teaching or belief is such bunkum. You misrepresent what the church teaches and then make an outright untrue statement! When I think we need the help of someone (namely you) whose doctrines are not in line with either the New Testament or the writings of the early church to help us evangelize our own sheep then I’ll give ya a call.(but don’t hold your breath.)

Nahhh.

Gee… don’t kill yourself responding with substance. I know that interferes with your rhetoric and propaganda, but it helps in the truth department.

Let’s seek to “convert” those who already know Christ

.

Great.Where is it written that your personally held beliefs are more valid than mine or any other Catholics? I don’t see you evangelizing much of anyone, especially here where you crank out misrepresentations of Catholic teaching and make judgments of Catholics who post here while I bet there are people who sit in the pews of your own church who talk a good game and aren’t half the believer that most of the Catholics on this forum are.

Regardless… I don’t know if you are concerned about those people that are closest to you. I can’t tell from your efforts here.

So don’t try to justify your propagandizing here at CAF. About the only thing that you have going for you (IMV) is that you are at least a great deal less of a jerk than most of the so-called Christians on your other favorite forum.:knight2:

 

[ccfbob]

I will say an individual Divine Mercy Chaplet for this intention, and all on this thread today.

 

[DADTO8SOFAR]

I used to visit the Alpha & Omega website from time to time. It was interesting to hear White’s perspective on varied subjects. Despite his abrasiveness, I enjoyed the debate. But the more I listened to White, the more I noticed a pattern - and I began to suspect that he wasn’t as interested in truth as in winning debates. It really began to bug me. But the straw that broke the back was last year when White wrote a piece where he quoted Richard Mcbrien as a Roman Catholic authority on history. See the following:

http://aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1507&catid=7

While it’s true that Mcbrien is a professor & historian at Notre Dame, it is also common knowledge that he is an enemy of Catholic orthodoxy. He is hardly a reliable source. I find it highly unlikely that White didn’t know this. At best, White acted with great irresponsibility for not checking his sources; at worst, he acted with conscious deception. This seems to be a pattern. I no longer have much respect for his work.

Pray for James White, and pray for me while you’re at it.

 

[Michael_Howard]

In your almighty opinion perhaps… Why aren’t you posting over at Internet Infidels Forums…since that is a forum specifically for unbelievers?

C’mon that just doesn’t hold true Atemi. Most of you posts at CARM are in the Catholic forum and then you come here.

Talk about silliness…No… really? And that is perfectly fine. If people don’t want Catholics praying for their conversion to Catholicism then there’s a really simple way to fix that.

**Stop hassling Catholics and trying to convert them away from their faith!**In your rather highly biased opinion… Hang on. Lemme get out my “concernometer” and check it. Nope… the needle failed to budge even so much as a micro-give-a-rip. I rest my case! This is in your scholarly opinion. Do you personally know all these “literally got millions of Catholics in the world”? If not you have just made (another) rash generalization. How is that remark justifiable?

Who said that? Nowhere in Catholic teaching or belief is such bunkum. You misrepresent what the church teaches and then make an outright untrue statement! When I think we need the help of someone (namely you) whose doctrines are not in line with either the New Testament or the writings of the early church to help us evangelize our own sheep then I’ll give ya a call.(but don’t hold your breath.)Gee… don’t kill yourself responding with substance. I know that interferes with your rhetoric and propaganda, but it helps in the truth department.
Where is it written that your personally held beliefs are more valid than mine or any other Catholics? I don’t see you evangelizing much of anyone, especially here where you crank out misrepresentations of Catholic teaching and make judgments of Catholics who post here while I bet there are people who sit in the pews of your own church who talk a good game and aren’t half the believer that most of the Catholics on this forum are.

Regardless… I don’t know if you are concerned about those people that are closest to you. I can’t tell from your efforts here.

So don’t try to justify your propagandizing here at CAF. About the only thing that you have going for you (IMV) is that you are at least a great deal less of a jerk than most of the so-called Christians on your other favorite forum.:knight2:

I think Atemi is failing to understand something: we are talking about praying/interceding for the conversion of James White. Now, if his heart does turn from anger and he begins to seek Jesus Christ in the fullness of his church that tells you something about the fullness of the truth which is only found in the Catholic church

 

[Mickey]

Nor do I try to convert Catholics at all, unless they are without faith in Christ…as many, many Catholics are.

And now you claim to know the hearts of many, many, Catholic? Impressive.

 

[kaycee]

I think Atemi is failing to understand something: we are talking about praying/interceding for the conversion of James White. Now, if his heart does turn from anger and he begins to seek Jesus Christ in the fullness of his church that tells you something about the fullness of the truth which is only found in the Catholic church

AND if he does’nt??? Maybe your glass is only half full.

 

[Mickey]

Mr White states:

May I please, please, please seek to explain to Mickey and others that their use of the terms “charitable” or “uncharitable” in reference to my quoted statement is unbiblical and, in fact, illogical?** If, in fact,** Roman Catholicism is a false religion with a false gospel, is it charitable, or uncharitable, to warn someone against it?

---

Well now, this is an interesting statement from James. He has just given himself a free pass to “charitably” bash anyone’s faith because he deems it to be a false religion. If someone wants to warn James about be trapped by the false beliefs and grave errors of the reformed baptist theology, could that be classified as charitable Christian rhetoric? I think not. I see no love in such judgements.

Please, please, please, James–focus your attention on those who do not know Christ, instead of attacking those who love Him.

That is what I will pray for.

 

[Mickey]

Mr White states:

When I speak about Roman Catholicism, I have done everything in my power to be accurate in what I am saying. I have taken the time to read what the other side has to say.

When I study about reformed baptists, I have done everything in my power to be accurate in how I interpret their theology. I have taken the time to read what the other side has to say. If my conclusions tell me that it is a false religion, teaching a false gospel, am I compelled to tell all reformed baptists that they are in grave danger? Should I begin a website that is heavily weighed toward bringing to light the errors of the reformed baptists? Should I begin to vigorously debate reformed baptists so that I can show them their errors?

 

[Eliza10]

“Thankful Servant”:

I asked you a question, at the end of which I said:

…Unless you are James White.

And you responded:

No, I am not James White. Although, I did go to his web site, and while I am not a Calvinist I find nothing wrong in his doctrines that we should be praying for him. Unless of course it’s because he is not a catholic?

Well for not being James White you are very like him as you take a great interest in James White, as James White does. You come into this forum and this is the one topic you have something to say about, and you let us know you went to his website, and to my comment, you only respond to the sentence with James White in it.

And you debate like James White, because you ignored my quesiton.

And since James White is known for going to forums where his name is mentioned and registering under pseudonames in order to anonymously participate in what is being said about himself, this is not a stretch.

And since he displays such lack of moral charater in his manner of debate and in what he has to say about his own sister, I would expect him to say “No I’m not” when asked his identity, if he knew he could get away with it.

Here’s the question you did not respond to, and I am really curious about your answer:

Thankful Servant, You just joined the forum today, and this is the only topic you are writing on? How unusual. Why did you pick this topic of James White? How is that interesting to you?..

 

[kaycee]

Mr White states:

When I speak about Roman Catholicism, I have done everything in my power to be accurate in what I am saying. I have taken the time to read what the other side has to say.

When I study about reformed baptists, I have done everything in my power to be accurate in how I interpret their theology. I have taken the time to read what the other side has to say. If my conclusions tell me that it is a false religion, teaching a false gospel, am I compelled to tell all reformed baptists that they are in grave danger? Is that a rhetorical question? Catholics do believe in the Great commission dont they? Although being raised Catholic i dont recall it ever being mentioned.

 

[kaycee]

"
And since he displays such lack of moral charater in his manner of debate and in what he has to say about his own sister, I would expect him to say “No I’m not” when asked his identity, if he knew he could get away with it.

AAaaarrrrrggghhhhhh! Do you work for the Clintons?

 

[Mickey]

Catholics do believe in the Great commission dont they?

Matthew 28:16-20

Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted.
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

I do not see anything here about bashing fellow Christians.

Although being raised Catholic i dont recall it ever being mentioned.

Perhaps you were not paying attention?

 

[ThankfulServant]

Why not? Aren’t you “arrogantly” arguing that all of us should leave “Romanism” for a “Bible Church”?

That aside, when a Protestant becomes a Catholic, we call it “conversion”. :clapping: :extrahappy: :dancing:

When a Protestant leaves one denomination to join another, we call it “just another Sunday”. :coffeeread: :yawn:

So, are you saying the RC church is not a “Bible Church”?

 

[ccfbob]

AND if he does’nt??? Maybe your glass is only half full.

The Catholic position = 'Thy will be done"

 

[Mickey]

So, are you saying the RC church is not a “Bible Church”?

No. We are saying it is THE Bible Church!

 

[ThankfulServant]

Just for clarification, the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ beginning with a group of disciples and Apostles who lived with him and witnessed his ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, etc. This Church has been in continual existence since that time and its leadership is characterized by an unbroken chain of Apostolic Succession through “laying on of hands”. It is by no means simply “another denomination” among equals.

Protestantism, on the other hand, was formed by a group of men in the 16th century who specfically rejected the authority of the Catholic Church, created new doctrines that were appealing to themselves, and made no effort to maintain valid succession or sacraments.

Because the Church (first called “the way” then known as “Christian” and by 110 AD called “Catholic”) exists, those who receive the sacrament of baptism are members of this one true Church - in varying degrees of communion.

It is our prayer that all Christians would embrace the fullness of the revealed truth of the faith by learning and conforming with all that the Catholic Church teaches concerning the gospel.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

You mistakenly think that there is an earthly organization that is the one “true” church. The true church is not an organization, not a series of buildings, but the body of true believers. The true church consists of those who are regenerate; that is, it consists of those who are the true Christians. There are, however, churches that are Christian and churches that are not Christian.
But you might ask how we can tell if a church is Christian or not? The answer is simple once we understand what makes someone a Christian or not.

Therefore, we can see that if a church or denomination would deny that Jesus is God in flesh, or physically risen from the dead, then it would not be Christian. Furthermore, we could have two different churches that disagree on the non-essentials, but are still Christian since they affirm the essentials.

 

[ccfbob]

You mistakenly think that there is an earthly organization that is the one “true” church. The true church is not an organization, not a series of buildings, but the body of true believers. The true church consists of those who are regenerate; that is, it consists of those who are the true Christians.

Where is that in the Bible?

“On this Rock I will build MY Church”. Dont seem too invisible, or an ambigeous body of believers to me.

 

[ThankfulServant]

I know you love to assume that only Roman Catholics are in the Body of Christ, but that fantasy just holds no water…even among wise Catholics.

And if you would then love to assume that James White is somehow outside of the Body of Christ and lost in his sins, thus requiring conversion, then please present the evidence that you magically know this.

Yes. There is only ONE CHURCH, so why you would seek to “convert” people to your denomination and not that ONE CHURCH, is beyond me.

…

The Christian church can be seen in two ways: the visible and the invisible. The visible church is comprised of all who claim the name of Christian and who gather together for worship and participation of the sacraments: the Lord’s Supper and Baptism.

The members of the visible church claim the name of Christian (excluding the cults like the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.). The visible church contains both believers and non-believers; that is, there are people in the visible church who are not really saved.

The members of the invisible Church are the actual body of believers. They are the ones who are truly regenerate and have trusted, by faith, in the true Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The true Christian is indwelt by the Lord Jesus (John 14:23) through the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Christian church is figuratively said to be the body of Christ.