Pray and fast for conversion of James White

[Mickey]

Mr White is now posting letters from grateful Roman Catholics who credit him for bringing them out of the dreaded Roman system. However, like one poster here has already communicated, Mr White has been the cause for many protestants finding the truth and beauty of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church–the Catholic Church.

Now I am not one to say if Mr White is angry or egotistical, (I do not know him), but I often read where people are vehemently turned off by the angry and egotistical nature of Mr White’s writng and henceforth open their eyes to Christ’s Church–the Catholic Church.

May God bless them abundantly.

And so, I for one, will continue to pray for my reformed baptist brother.

 

[justasking4]

QUOTE]

I never said “we are NOT able to find the truth in God’s Word”, as you suggest.

Not true. The Bible does not record the entirety of the Church’s history, doctorine and practices. It was never intended to. Not even all that Jesus said and did was recorded, so no (John 20, 30; 2 Cor 3,2; John 21,25) , the Bible is not all there is. The Bible is indeed the Word of God. It contains no error. This does not mean ever person understands it without error (Acts 8,31). Again the Bible comes from the Tradition of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church was not founded upon the Bible.

Is the church inspired-inerrant as the scriptures are? Of course not. The church can and has erred while the scriptures have not.

 

[justasking4]

Do you feel that it is essential to believe that Jesus was fully human and fully divine?

yes

 

[Michael_Howard]

Mr White is now posting letters from grateful Roman Catholics who credit him for bringing them out of the dreaded Roman system. However, like one poster here has already communicated, Mr White has been the cause for many protestants finding the truth and beauty of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church–the Catholic Church.

Now I am not one to say if Mr White is angry or egotistical, (I do not know him), but I often read where people are vehemently turned off by the angry and egotistical nature of Mr White’s writng and henceforth open their eyes to Christ’s Church–the Catholic Church.

May God bless them abundantly.

And so, I for one, will continue to pray for my reformed baptist brother.

Yes, I’m one of them “Where there is hatred sew love”, God bless you brother!

 

[Randy_Carson]

So, are you saying the RC church is not a “Bible Church”?

No, the Catholic Church is “the” Bible Church since Catholics wrote it.

But we don’t put “Bible Church” on the sign out in the parking lot because the fullness of God’s revelation comes through both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as interpreted by the Magisterium.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of (Tradition), because you know those from whom you learned it (Magisterium), 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures (Scripture), which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

See? All three working in harmony and inseparably in one short passage of scripture.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

It didn’t become a false system overnight. Little by little, until God finally said, “Enough!” and reformation broke out all over the place.

Where is this in the Bible? Or is this a “teaching of men”?

 

[Randy_Carson]

So you really think that we are NOT able to find the truth in God’s Word? And show me where it goes against Scriptures.

Let’s use just one example:

Do you think that infants should be baptized?

Does baptism regenerate the soul?

 

[Michael_Howard]

No, the Catholic Church is “the” Bible Church since Catholics wrote it.

But we don’t put “Bible Church” on the sign out in the parking lot because the fullness of God’s revelation comes through both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as interpreted by the Magisterium.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of (Tradition), because you know those from whom you learned it (Magisterium), 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures (Scripture), which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

See? All three working in harmony and inseparably in one short passage of scripture.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Amen brother, nice word!

 

[Randy_Carson]

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing. These millions can hardly be blamed for hating Catholics because Catholics “adore statues;” because they “put the Blessed Mother on the same level with God;” because they “say indulgence is a permission to commit sin;” because the Pope “is a Fascist;” because the Church “is the defender of Capitalism.” If the Church taught or believed any one of these things, it should be hated, but the fact is that the Church does not believe nor teach any one of them. It follows then that the hatred of the millions is directed against error and not against truth. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do.

If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hates. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world. Look for the Church that is hated by the world, as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church which is accused of being behind the times, as Our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because he called Himself the Truth. Look for the Church which amid the confusion of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly, it is other-worldly. Since it is other-worldly, it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. … the Catholic Church is the only Church existing today which goes back to the time of Christ. History is so very clear on this point, it is curious how many miss its obviousness…"

Bishop Fulton Sheen

 

[rtconstant]

Is the church inspired-inerrant as the scriptures are? Of course not. The church can and has erred while the scriptures have not.

Here is the problem with this logic. Sense it was left to the Church to compile the Bible and the Bible as we know it is without error then the Church that decided its composition had to have been reliable for establishing its composition.

The Bible does not state what should and should not be in it. The Church decided that and to be able to do so it had have authority in such matters.

If the Church can err in such matters then the composition of the Bible can also be in error.

In a larger sense if the Church as Bride and Body of Christ can err in Her doctrines then all of Her doctrines must be called into question. What authority can we fall back on then by which to judge where the Church has erred and where She has not? You might say the Bible. But since the Church is the one that compiled the Bible and declared its infallibility we then must question whether the Bible is in truth infallible since the Church could have left out important books or chapters or could be wrong about the Bible’s infallibility all together.

Then there is the historical problem. If the Bible is in fact the alone in infallible authority then we have assume that God intentionally left the Church languish for centuries before the canon was completely established and even then only the rich and socially blessed (who could read) would have been the only people who could have profitted by its establishment until the 1500’s.

At this point we now have to wonder at God’s intentions since He would have essentially left the Church without a complete rudder for centuries and then denied the full rudded to all but the well born for a thousand more. Does that make sense?

Finally there is interpretation. The fact that every Christian denomination understands Sacred Scripture differently means that understanding of the written text can be highly variable. So then again we need an authority to interpret the written text to explain the explicit and the reveal the implicit.

According to the Bible the Church is the “pillar and ground of truth” but if we’re assuming that by “pillar and ground of truth” the Bible means soceity of men and their man made and fallible laws. We must then looks to some other agency. What could that be? The Holy Spirit perhaps? While no doubt the Spirt moves amongst comforting, convicting and guiding. It is still left to us to hear His voice and accept it properly.

All believers attempt to do so sincerely and honestly but our natures and limited knowledge obviously cloud our vision otherwise everyone who reads the scriptures would agree. So even with the working of the Holy Spirit within the heart of the individual we still require authority. Where is that authority?

If the Authority is not the Church as the Bible and Tradition teach us then it is in the end all up for grabs. Everyone must be assumed to be in error no Truth can be definatively given and as such no position is any better worse than the other. We could all be damned, we could all be saved, it could be a random lottery, it could be reincarnation, it could all be lies and oblivion. No one can say.

So again where is the authority?

 

[Odell]

I just have a very simple question…how do you know the RC church is the “one” true church?

You still need to answer how
Protestantism is one true Church?

Could you do that for us?

See my reply to Keikiolu.

Your reply did not answer the question that was asked.
try again.

No, I am not James White. Although, I did go to his web site, and while I am not a Calvinist I find nothing wrong in his doctrines that we should be praying for him. Unless of course it’s because he is not a catholic?

If you do not believe in clavinism then oviously he does not have the FULLNESS of truth to your own standereds.

so why not pray that he comes to it?

You find nothng wrong with his doctrine yet you are not calvinest:ehh:

You mistakenly think that there is an earthly organization that is the one “true” church. The true church is not an organization, not a series of buildings, but the body of true believers.

Amen

The true church consists of those who are regenerate; that is, it consists of those who are the true Christians.

The true Church is one.

That is why I asked how can Protestantism be one true Churuch?

But you might ask how we can tell if a church is Christian or not? The answer is simple once we understand what makes someone a Christian or not.

let me guess the bible right?

Furthermore, we could have two different churches that disagree on the non-essentials, but are still Christian since they affirm the essentials.

well this aint biblical. Are you still Christian?

The first church, its growth, doctrine, and practices, were recorded for us in the New Testament.

And they were one

Jesus, as well as His apostles, foretold that false teachers would arise, and indeed it is apparent from some of the New Testament epistles that these apostles had to fight against false teachers early on.

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

I think you are geting it.

Even you acknowledge James White to be falsely teaching calvinism.

You understand that there is 33,000 denoinations teaching different than one another someone has to be false.

It could be you.

They had to fight it early on and we are still fighting it today.

bottom line is we still have to fight it because we are not ONE. You acknowledge that we need to fight it but yet somefalse teaching is exceptible to you.

Having a pedigree of apostolic succession or being able to trace a church’s roots back to the “first church” is nowhere in Scripture given as a test for being the true church.

The ONE TRUE CHURCH that Jesus founded would at least claim to be founded by him. Do you not agree?

We know that the true church cant be devided. We know that the True Chruch will never fall. We know the true Church did not come about 1500 years later.

What is given is repeated comparisons between what a false teachers teach and what the first church taught, as recorded in Scripture. Whether a church is the “true church” or not is determined by comparing its teachings and practices to that of the New Testament church, as recorded in Scripture.

The true Church did not have a NT to compare its teaching to. The Chruch came before the bible. If your Church came from someone who just one day picked up the bible I would. look somewhere else.

While it is true that the cults and sometimes orthodox churches twist the interpretation of Scripture to support their practices; nonetheless, Scripture, when taken in context and faithfully studied, is able to guide one to the truth.

But not to the fullness of truth. You know that look at Calvinist James White.

We need a guide brother and you are not it. The Church is the one that came before the bible.

So you really think that we are NOT able to find the truth in God’s Word? And show me where it goes against Scriptures.

Truth yes I can find truth in Budism in Hiduism in Jewdism. But fullness of truth no. We need the Chruch for that

hence the Chruch is the pillar and bullwark of the truth.

its scripture brother you cant deny that.

Is the church inspired-inerrant as the scriptures are? Of course not. The church can and has erred while the scriptures have not.

how can the pillar and bullwark err?

 

[Michael_Howard]

According to my former pastor (Earl Palmer, formerly of Berkeley First Presbyterian Church, now with University Pres. in Seattle), the word is normally translated “gentleness” should be translated “unflappableness”. I.e., exhibit grace under pressure.

I’m familiar with the church, I grew up in Seattle. Yes, gentleness does not mean being spineless, grace under pressure is simply restraining carnality and slanerdous remarks even when things get heated, never attacking the person when trying to bring them into correction, being an example of Christ in speech and action. Arrogence, pride and puffed up ego always in my opinion point to something wrong inside.

 

[justasking4]

You still need to answer how
Protestantism is one true Church?

Could you do that for us?

Your reply did not answer the question that was asked.
try again.

If you do not believe in clavinism then oviously he does not have the FULLNESS of truth to your own standereds.

so why not pray that he comes to it?

You find nothng wrong with his doctrine yet you are not calvinest:ehh:

Amen

The true Church is one.

That is why I asked how can Protestantism be one true Churuch?

let me guess the bible right?

well this aint biblical. Are you still Christian?

And they were one

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

I think you are geting it.

Even you acknowledge James White to be falsely teaching calvinism.

You understand that there is 33,000 denoinations teaching different than one another someone has to be false.

It could be you.

They had to fight it early on and we are still fighting it today.

bottom line is we still have to fight it because we are not ONE. You acknowledge that we need to fight it but yet somefalse teaching is exceptible to you.

The ONE TRUE CHURCH that Jesus founded would at least claim to be founded by him. Do you not agree?

We know that the true church cant be devided. We know that the True Chruch will never fall. We know the true Church did not come about 1500 years later.

The true Church did not have a NT to compare its teaching to. The Chruch came before the bible. If your Church came from someone who just one day picked up the bible I would. look somewhere else.

But not to the fullness of truth. You know that look at Calvinist James White.

We need a guide brother and you are not it. The Church is the one that came before the bible.

Truth yes I can find truth in Budism in Hiduism in Jewdism. But fullness of truth no. We need the Chruch for that

hence the Chruch is the pillar and bullwark of the truth.

its scripture brother you cant deny that.

how can the pillar and bullwark err?

So long as the church is made up of people that are fallen yes. Keep in mind that the scriptures also warn that false teachers would come into the church and decieve many. See 2 Peter 2:1

 

[Odell]

So long as the church is made up of people that are fallen yes. Keep in mind that the scriptures also warn that false teachers would come into the church and decieve many. See 2 Peter 2:1

They will decieve many but not the Church. for the gates of hell will not prevail.

and just because people are fallen does not mean that the church has err in what she has tought.

 

[Tom]

Your last sentence does not follow. The church is made up of people who are fallen and can error. Sometimes they can get it right and sometimes not
The answer to your objection comes from the gospel according to John.
John 1,35, begins the testimony, and how the leadership of His Church was formed. Beginning in chapter 6 (specifically 6, 51). After many of His disciples leave Him over the teaching of the His true presence in the Holy Eucharist. He directs certain teachings only to His Apostles. Starting in Chapter 13 and continuing into 14, the discourse of His last supper, where He is addressing His Apostles .Read in particular 14,16 and on, where He promises the Holy Spirit will come and lead “them” to all truth. Question is who exactly is “them”? Answer is, it is to the leadership of His Church, and not to all who follow Him. People can err, but the Church is promised that the leadership, as a group, will be led to all truth. Are individual prone to error? Certainly, He never promises any single individual they will be perfect or impeccable, simply that the leader (pope) will be led to all truth, and separately the leadership, as a group, will also be led to all truth.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Good question. I know catholics claim its the catholic church but when we look for the infallible interpretation of the scriptures, its not there. Your church can claim to have this authority to be the only one to interpret scripture but it has never done so. Catholics are in the same boat as Protestants.

Hardly.

Catholics are in the same boat that Christ Himself built. It’s called the Barque of Peter.

Protestants bailed long ago and have been paddling in their little canoes ever since.

Look, I understand you have serious disagreements with Catholicism…why not pick one issue and start a new thread to discuss it? We’ll be happy to chat as long as you like…

 

[Tom]

Listen, there have been absolutely horrible Catholics, Bishops, popes, but the truly amazing thing is even the terrible ones, have never taught in error. Many try to twist their teachings, take them out of context, but in 2,000 years no errors in official teachings. Personally they may have been a disgrace. Fortunately we’re not required to listen to their personal interpretations, or follow their actions. If you think there are errors taught, please start a new thread on an error, just pick one so the thread won’t get sidetracked.

 

[justasking4]

Hardly.

Catholics are in the same boat that Christ Himself built. It’s called the Barque of Peter.

I’ll give it some thought. However, I see people on these forumns making all kinds of claims and sometimes these discussions lead to other areas. Its not always neat and tidy

 

[justasking4]

QUOTE=Odell;2206751]They will decieve many but not the Church. for the gates of hell will not prevail.

I agree the gates of hell would not be able to totally overcome the church of Christ but that does not mean it would be incapable of teaching error. In fact we can already see some error in the church at Pergamum in Revelations 2:14.

and just because people are fallen does not mean that the church has err in what she has tought.

I agree that in and ot itself means that error will happen. We must rather examine exactly what is being taught and does it line up with scripture. It is by the scriptures that we determine truth from error. It alone is inspired and inerrant in its teachings.

 

[Randy_Carson]

In fact we can already see some error in the church at Pergamum in Revelations 2:14.

The local congregation had some issues; obviously, the Church as a whole did not. This is the point. The Catholic Church has never formally taught error.

I agree that in and ot itself means that error will happen. We must rather examine exactly what is being taught and does it line up with scripture. It is by the scriptures that we determine truth from error. It alone is inspired and inerrant in its teachings.

The scriptures alone are inspired. However, God also established an infallible Church to interpret them.

An inspired book which is misinterpreted is no help.