Pray, study, listen to conscience, pope says about eucharistic sharing

[phil19034]

“And therefore, it’s quite painful to be divided in the faith and to be unable to take part together in the Lord’s Supper. What can we do on this point to finally attain communion?” --From the link provided

As has been noted, we sometimes hear what we want to hear. But the above quote is clear enough. It is about receiving communion.

The language doesn’t make sense if her question is about specifically about her receiving communion in the Catholic Church. It doesn’t say “Why can’t we receive communion together?” Or “why can’t I receive communion with him?” It says “…to finally attain communion.”

I wouldn’t say “my wife and I finally attained communion.” But if the Lutherans and Catholics came back into communion one could say “Catholics & Lutherans have finally attained communion.”

I think it’s important to see the official translation. The translation doesn’t make sense if she’s talking about individually receiving communion.

 

[graciew]

The language doesn’t make sense if her question is about specifically about her receiving communion in the Catholic Church. It doesn’t say “Why can’t we receive communion together?” Or “why can’t I receive communion with him?” It says “…to finally attain communion.”

I wouldn’t say “my wife and I finally attained communion.” But if the Lutherans and Catholics came back into communion one could say “Catholics & Lutherans have finally attained communion.”

I think it’s important to see the official translation. The translation doesn’t make sense if she’s talking about individually receiving communion.

I read your link,Phil. The clue word is “permission.”
The "no “was a given as you said. Both knew it.
" At this point to finally attain. " sounded to me as an " indirect " question requesting permission to receive communion now until they finally some day were in full communion( hopefully),to which the Pope answered " no”,he could not give permission .
Could it be ?

 

[phil19034]

I read your link,Phil. The clue word is “permission.”
The "no “was a given as you said. Both knew it.
" At this point to finally attain. " sounded to me as an " indirect " question requesting permission to receive communion now until they finally some day were in full communion( hopefully),to which the Pope answered " no”,he could not give permission .

 Could it be ?

I think the Pope did assume that she was deep down asking for permission to receive communion, which is why he said he could not give permission. But I do think that his “Speak with the Lord and go ahead. I don’t dare say more.” comment refers to go ahead with your life together and go up and receive communion. I think “go ahead” might be a bad translation.

Again… need to see the official translation and/or the org transcript in Italian.

 

[Thomas_White]

A verbatim quote from the OP:

“When a Lutheran woman married to a Catholic man asked Pope Francis what she and her husband could do to receive Communion together, the pope said he could not issue a general rule on shared Communion, but the couple should pray, study and then act according to their consciences.”

It was a question asked by a member of the congregation at a Lutheran church Pope Francis visited in Rome. The answer is obvious enough to both myself and most others. It is a view I have heard a number of priests express, and it concerns a reluctance to refuse Communion to anyone (i.e., to make that judgment for another person).

 

[graciew]

It’s ok for me. It became a challenge.to.decipher but I do not need to.go.any further.
Thank you both !

 

[pepipop]

I think the answer here is simple:

1. All practicing/orthodox Catholics know the answer is “no” and understand why the answer is no.
2. Many (if not most) Protestants (and this woman) know the Church does not allow inter-communion.
3. However, many (if not most) Protestants and unformed Catholics do NOT understand WHY the Church says “no.”

The Church (especially the Laity) has done a poor job of teaching the “Whys” of the Church. We do a poor job of teaching “why the Church is against Birth Control,” “why the Church doesn’t allow inter-communion,” “why the Church doesn’t allow divorce,” “why the Church doesn’t allow abortion,” “why the Church doesn’t allow female ordinations,” etc.

Almost everyone knows the Church’s stance on these things, but many do NOT understand WHY the Church has her stance. People will not consider the “why” if they will not listen to the Church. The Pope is trying to soften hearts so people will listen.

People have been calling Pope Francis the “Pope of Mercy” … I don’t think so. I think he’s the Pope of the New Evangelization, an apostle to the unchurched.

With this said: does he make mistakes… sure. He’s human. His off the cuff remarks is why people like him. He’s not rehearsed. But that also means that he will say things that don’t always come out the way he intends them, or can be twisted.

God Bless

That’s it in one.

The ones’ that know the reason for not receiving communion in the CC - already know, and the others that see the CC as an antiquated, unfriendly institution with lots of rules and regulations and don’t know the reasons why they may not receive communion in the CC, may now investigate or at least do not see it as an ‘us and them’ situation.

 

[Thomas_White]

Here is the title of the OP:

“Pray, study, listen to conscience, pope says about Eucharistic sharing”

Rather than quoting a single sentence or paragraph of the CCC, it must be considered in its entirely. This would include the section on the conscience and an understanding of the meaning of a certain judgment of conscience (even when it is contrary to Church teaching).

I do not believe it is Pope Francis who does not understand the issue.

 

[clem456]

Here is the title of the OP:

“Pray, study, listen to conscience, pope says about Eucharistic sharing”

Rather than quoting a single sentence or paragraph of the CCC, it must be considered in its entirely.

So you say,
as you quote a one- liner from the tile of the thread to make your point, which words the Pope did not even speak as they are in the OP. Those words in the OP are a somewhat interpretive paraphrase, and they are definitely a one liner, which you seem to be decrying. So, what’s up with that??. Do you like one liners or don’t you? Maybe it depends on whose purpose they serve?

In your words:
“Rather than quoting a single sentence” representing the Pope’s statement it “must be considered in its entirely” as you say.
The entire speech is referenced earlier in the thread. Might be good to read the actual whole conversation “in it’s entirety”.

This would include the section on the conscience and an understanding of the meaning of a certain judgment of conscience (even when it is contrary to Church teaching).

I do not believe it is Pope Francis who does not understand the issue.

I’m curious who you think the Pope’s admonitions are addressed to. Who is asked to understand? What does the Church do for our understanding and edification?
You have a continuing issue with the CCC. Why is that?

 

[SoMissCatholic]

And also, he gave the example of the Episcopalian bishop, which, to me, sounded like the story of a convert, who began taking his Catholic children and wife to Mass and then eventually was “called by the Lord” himself. I don’t think the pope is talking about going up to Communion as an Anglican in that passage, but about becoming a Catholic. If anyone has any info about that, I’d be happy to find out more.

I could be wrong here, but from the description of the Episcopalian bishop given in his remarks, I believe that Pope Francis was likely referring to Tony Palmer, a bishop with the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches until his death on July 20, 2014. According to the birth date listed in the Wikipedia article on him, he was 48 years old when he died. You may remember Tony Palmer as the one who recorded the video of Pope Francis on his iPhone and played it at a conference for Kenneth Copeland Ministries. Below I’ve compared details given in this Boston Globe article and this Patheos blog entry with the details given by Pope Francis to show why I think it was Palmer whom the Pope was referring to:

Pope Francis: “I once had a great friendship with an Episcopalian bishop who went a little wrong,”

Boston Globe: An articulate, laid-back, jovial South African in his early fifties (NB: this conflicts with the birth date listed on Wikipedia, February 4, 1966, which would have made Palmer 48 at the time of his death. The Patheos blog entry agrees with Wikipedia, see below), with a penchant for quirky clerical clothes, Palmer didn’t look or sound much like a conventional Anglican bishop. When I first met him in May, at a coffee shop in Bath, close to where he lived with his family, he explained that he had been ordained by the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches, or CEEC, whose presiding bishop is in Florida.

The CEEC, which was formed in the 1990s, is Anglican. Yet unlike the Episcopal Church in the United States, it’s not part of the Anglican Communion loyal to the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Its leaders see themselves as part of a “convergence” movement, seeking to combine evangelical Christianity with the liturgy and sacraments typical of Catholicism.

That convergence, Palmer told me, “is a precursor to full unity between the Protestant and Catholic Churches.”

Pope Francis: “he was 48 years old, married, two children.”

Patheos: On July 20, 2014, a car struck the motorcycle Palmer was riding near his home in England. He was in surgery for 10 hours before he died, a 48-year-old man who left behind his wife, Emiliana, and their two young adult children, not to mention many shocked Christians.

Pope Francis: “This was a discomfort to him – a Catholic wife, Catholic children, him a bishop.”

Patheos: During the 1990s the Palmers came in contact with the charismatic renewal in the Catholic Church. As Tony put it later, “When my wife found out that she could be charismatic, evangelical, Pentecostal and Catholic, she wanted to reconnect to her Catholic roots.” Their children were raised Catholic, but Tony remained an evangelical.

In 2003, Tony got an email from Matteo Calisi, a leader in the Catholic charismatic renewal in Italy, inviting the Palmers to move to Italy to minister within the Italian Catholic charismatic renewal.

But the invitation was conditional on the Palmers raising their own financial support. Just one couple agreed to back them financially, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland. The Palmers sold their car and house and used the money to support their new work.

While in Italy, Tony joined the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches (CEEC), a young Anglican group with its base in Florida that had grown from a circle of charismatic evangelicals who had felt a hunger for the sacraments. With the CEEC, Tony became an Anglican priest, and later a bishop. The CEEC is a communion that is independent of the Anglican Communion led by the Archbishop of Canterbury, but claims historic apostolic succession for its bishops.

(Continued Below)

 

[SoMissCatholic]

(Continued from Above)

Pope Francis: “He accompanied his wife and children to Mass on Sunday, and then went to worship with his community. It was a step of participation in the Lord’s Supper.”

Boston Globe: Through the charismatics, Emiliana returned to the Catholic Church, and the Palmers with their young children began attending Sunday Mass.

. . .

Palmer and Calisi and four others went to meet (Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio) prior to beginning their mission in his diocese. When Palmer told Bergoglio that he was an Anglican evangelical with a Catholic wife and children, the cardinal was curious: how did they live that difference? Palmer told him that it worked very well, but that, since he led his family back to the Catholic Church, he was no longer allowed to take Communion with them.

When Palmer told him that his children asked him why he would join a church that separated a family, he said that Bergoglio’s eyes filled with tears.

“His heart broke,” Palmer recalled.

The cardinal asked if they could remain in touch and meet regularly. Over the years, the Buenos Aires cardinal and the evangelical bishop formed a deep bond, staying in touch by telephone and email between face-to-face meetings.

Pope Francis: “Then he went forward, the Lord called him, a just man.”

If indeed Tony Palmer is who Pope Francis was referring to in his remarks–which, based on the above, I believe to be a well founded assumption–then the “he went forward, the Lord called him, a just man,” would seem to be referring to his death. It certainly would not be referring to a conversion as Cardinal Bergoglio (before he became Pope Francis) expressly advised Palmer against becoming Catholic:

Patheos: Bergoglio asked Palmer if they could keep in touch. With phone calls, emails and occasional face-to-face meetings, their friendship grew.

During one of those conversations, Palmer spoke to Bergoglio about whether he should become Catholic. He described the cardinal’s response to Ivereigh: “[Bergoglio] told me that we need to have bridge-builders. He counseled me not to take the step because it looked like I was choosing a side and I would cease to be a bridge-builder.”

It could also mean that in his death, Palmer was finally united with the Catholic Church:

Boston Globe: Last Wednesday, in Bath, Palmer’s funeral was a Catholic Requiem Mass at which most of the congregation were evangelicals. He was buried in a Catholic cemetery, united at last with the Church he felt at home in.

 

[Gabriel333]

“And we can’t presume she already knows that. If the woman is Lutheran, we can’t assume she has a Catechism or has read it, online or otherwise. She asked the question, and she needed the answer. The correct answer. Which the Pope failed to give.”

She has a husband who should know his faith. The Pope made a clear statement “I wouldn’t ever dare to allow this, because it’s not my competence.”

Fr Zuhlsdorf says…“Before anyone gets out onto the ledge outside the window, read that again and repeat it to yourself. The Pope is not saying that Lutherans can go to Communion.”

 

[pepipop]

“And we can’t presume she already knows that. If the woman is Lutheran, we can’t assume she has a Catechism or has read it, online or otherwise. She asked the question, and she needed the answer. The correct answer. Which the Pope failed to give.”

She has a husband who should know his faith. The Pope made a clear statement “I wouldn’t ever dare to allow this, because it’s not my competence.”

Fr Zuhlsdorf says…“Before anyone gets out onto the ledge outside the window, read that again and repeat it to yourself. The Pope is not saying that Lutherans can go to Communion.”

We can presume she knows because;

1. her husband is Catholic, and I am sure she’s well aware of the differences of the faiths especially in relation to the Eucharist;
2. She is a Lutheran, or a practicising Christian protestant and they do not believe in transubstantiation, but that communion is a symbol only;
3. Why even bother asking at all, if she wasn’t aware of it - why would she assume she couldn’t receive communion with her husband at the CC?

 

[FollowChrist34]

We can presume she knows because;

1. her husband is Catholic, and I am sure she’s well aware of the differences of the faiths especially in relation to the Eucharist;
2. She is a Lutheran, or a practicising Christian protestant and they do not believe in transubstantiation, but that communion is a symbol only;
3. Why even bother asking at all, if she wasn’t aware of it - why would she assume she couldn’t receive communion with her husband at the CC?

Just a note: Lutherans believe in the Real Presence. They reject communion as a symbol only - that came later with Calvin and Zwingli.

 

[pepipop]

Just a note: Lutherans believe in the Real Presence. They reject communion as a symbol only - that came later with Calvin and Zwingli.

Thanks. I hadn’t read up about their particular religious beliefs.

However, as a committed Christian, the wife will know why she cannot receive communion in the CC with her husband.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Thanks. I hadn’t read up about their particular religious beliefs.

However, as a committed Christian, the wife will know why she cannot receive communion in the CC with her husband.

Yes, I agree. If I had a Lutheran husband, I don’t think I’d go up to the pastor at his Church and ask if I could take communion with them there as an RC. Largely because (a) I already know the answer, but (b) also out of respect, since my RC Church does (did?) the same…

 

[LongingSoul]

I think the Pope did assume that she was deep down asking for permission to receive communion, which is why he said he could not give permission. But I do think that his “Speak with the Lord and go ahead. I don’t dare say more.” comment refers to go ahead with your life together and go up and receive communion. I think “go ahead” might be a bad translation.

Again… need to see the official translation and/or the org transcript in Italian.

I really think that we’ve grown to assume that the best leaders are articulate and charismatic and are obvious leaders and the world makes a lot of fun of ‘unleadership’ like traits in general. Leaders these days virtually live with a camera and microphone shoved in their face permanently.

We have an expectation that the Pope will be rolling words of wisdom off his tongue all the time like Confucius, but Pope Francis is probably just being honest about his lack of that ability. I mean it’s not unheard of. Moses was particularly unleadership like we are told… to the point where brother Aaron was his translator/mouthpiece in a very effective model of great leadership.

When he’s asked a question he answers a lot more like a spiritual director does than Confucius. That is, he encourages a person to engage their relationship with God and exercise their conscience for not just their own good but the good of the human family. Especially in dialogue with Lutherans we are now looking for the things where we are alike as the means to heal rather than constantly reiterating where we differ. Ecumenism is an attitude that wants to heal the rift in the Christian Churchs and the whole we’re right and their wrong and they must come over to our side failed because it didn’t reflect reality.

Not the best source but an interesting explanation of Pope Francis mode of operation…

huffingtonpost.com/entry/to-understand-pope-francis-you-need-to-know-about-the-jesuits_5600543de4b00310edf807d7

 

[sarah_j]

The Pope doesn’t have a problem speaking plainly when he so chooses.
for example: there’s nothing vague or ambiguous about the homily he delivered today.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=988073

 

[pnewton]

Just a note: Lutherans believe in the Real Presence. They reject communion as a symbol only - that came later with Calvin and Zwingli.

The do not believe in the real substantial presence of Christ, that is, that the host becomes the actual body of Christ and ceases to be bread, except in appearance. Belief in the Catholic dogma of transubstantiation is essential to receiving the actual real presence in the Eucharist.

 

[mkoopman]

The do not believe in the real substantial presence of Christ, that is, that the host becomes the actual body of Christ and ceases to be bread, except in appearance. Belief in the Catholic dogma of transubstantiation is essential to receiving the actual real presence in the Eucharist.

This is the real problem with Lutherans and especially in uniting as one church; with one baptism and one Lord. Where is the “Lutheran Magisterium” and what is a Lutheran to believe? True Presence has different meaning within different groups of Lutherans.

Jesuit spirituality may confer some of the context of the Lutheran free will proposition on understanding Jesus and the faith. There is, however, One True Faith that is concomitant with one absolute Baptism. Jesuits do learn and are commissioned to teach only this faith.

And, Pope Francis does.

However, ears stretched beyond the limits of good order are always spinning the antithesis of good Jesuit spirituality into such matters as a direct personal conversation with Pope Francis. One appears to hear what one wants to hear, especially when a comment is made face to face, with direct eye contact and all body language present and then translated into another language often accompanied with little or no context, at all.

If rather one were listening to the aboriginal vicar of Christ shown in that little light when personal matters of others are plastered across grocery store magazine racks and Catholic blogs it might be more obvious that the problem is not in what Pope Francis did or did not say. I think we all need to move forward, or come forward, or go forward on this with whatever may be implied by the similarity or difference in moving, coming or going forward.

 

[Thomas_White]

This is the real problem with Lutherans and especially in uniting as one church; with one baptism and one Lord. Where is the “Lutheran Magisterium” and what is a Lutheran to believe? True Presence has different meaning within different groups of Lutherans.

Yes, but what would matter with respect to the woman mentioned in the OP is her belief.