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guanophore
Guest
It is a crass colloquialism. The use of such terms degrades discussion.
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G
guanophore
Guest
I would think substituting prayer for such abuse would be a welcome improvement.
Thank you for your contribution to the OP, Valke2. I certainly forgive you for being touchy, and beg that you will forgive the Catholics who have abused the Jews over the centuries. Such behavior does not glorify Christ (who was, as many forget, a Jew) and would be an affront to the Apostles, (who were also all Jews).
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Valke2
Guest
I have no animosity toward Catholics. My father is catholic. But I understand why Jews look askance at Catholics praying for their conversion.I would think substituting prayer for such abuse would be a welcome improvement.
Thank you for your contribution to the OP, Valke2. I certainly forgive you for being touchy, and beg that you will forgive the Catholics who have abused the Jews over the centuries. Such behavior does not glorify Christ (who was, as many forget, a Jew) and would be an affront to the Apostles, (who were also all Jews).
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tundramom
Guest
Hi Kristie… It wasn’t just a rogue Mormon group. It is what they do every single day in their temples. They do “baptisms for the dead” and they stand in proxy for them.
Happens all the time. Not just with a rogue group, but in every temple of Mormonism on any day. I went when I was a young teenager and if memory serves me right, I believe I stood in proxy for something like 18 women. Can’t remember for sure but that number seems right to me.
in Christ
Steph
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guanophore
Guest
No, it is not nice at all, and in fact, we do take on the hurt of generations before us. The Jews have had more hurt as a people than just about any group, not only because they have been around longer, but because of their cohesion as a people. I agree that we are not toewear the hurt or take a victim stance, but to embody the trauma of the race to which we belong, or of a people can be a very healing thing.
For example, supposing the OP were to recognize that the Jews are hurt over the prayers on account of the past abuse that accompanied them. Such a person would be in a unique position to pray for healing, because they have deeper knowlege, and a heart inclined toward healing. The prayers of those who have been enlighted in this way are much more efficacious than those of an unknowing person who attends a Liturgy where a prayer is offered for the perfidious Jews, for example.
I would say it is a blessing, and a curse. For example, my ancestors come from Europe. I was at work this week and had a 15 year old very angry native American boy tell me that he does not trust “Whitey”. Now, I have not done anything personally to him, to lose his trust, but he comes to me after generations of abuse to his people by “Whitey”.
One of my ancestors “conquered” this region, imprisoned the Natives, and chopped off the feet of those who tried to escape the reservations. Here is a chance to take what has been given to me that shared the same religion and race, and in the name of my cherished religion committed great atrocities, and bring healing to the here and now.
If I ask his forgiveness for all the injuries done to him by European Catholics, pray for him, and show him the respect and dignity that he deserves as a human being, healing can happen.
Pretending it has nothing to do with me will be throwing away an opportunity.
I think only a person who has never experienced discrimmination or racism could make such a statement. After recently celebrating MLK day, it is evident to me that slavery has victimized many generations, on both sides of it.
Acknowledging trauma is not equivalent not playing “victim”. I should think this would be obvious from the accounts of Jewish Christians in the NT. Read the religious histories of Stephen and Paul before the councils. They acknowledged the wrongs done to their race without taking a “victim” attitude.
Paul also advises that people keep their state in life, if they are slaves, to serve with honor.
Spoken like a true conquistador! The truth is that you have taken this from your ancestry.
In every line of paupers there is a royal.
The Royals were not known for their chastity.I agree, but one who is in poverty need not be victimized by it, right? Yet, if one were to acknowledge the damage done over the generations from poverty, one would not be amiss.That’s the ultimate victimhood, isn’t it? Poverty. Lower calls existance. Doesn’t get more victimy than that.
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guanophore
Guest
Indeed. But, if such a one were to apologize, and give you back that lunch money, and more, then go on to prevent others from beating you up, and taking your lunch money, or also donating their lunch money in restitution, don’t you think that would be some solid steps to healing?
Or, even if someone did this for you that did not previously take your money, would it not be of benefit to healing?
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Eucharisted
Guest
Please don’t bring this thread off topic. Open a new thread if you want to talk about such things as the Jewish relationship to the Catholic Church or the history of Judaism. Thank you kindly.
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ricko
Guest
I wish I could find the news article but I will try to relay what it said. It was about the Jews complaining to the Pope about a prayer the Catholic Church had, of which part of it asked for the conversion of the Jews. So the Pope, being the nice guy that he is, toned down the conversion part a little. Funny thing though, the Pope, being the nice guy that he is, didn’t bring up the prayer the Jews had for the conversion of Christians!
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guanophore
Guest
This is the prayer during the Easter Triduum about the conversion of the perfidious Jews. They found it offensive. The language is very old, and was inserted in the liturgical Rite back when there was quite a bit of anti-semetic sentiment.
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Valke2
Guest
we have a prayer for the conversion of christians? That’s news to me.
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Valke2
Guest
I don’t understand where you are going with this? If you are alluding to the Church’s recent progress in repairing its relationship with Jews, I would agree. All the more reason to be wary of actions that look like a step backwards.
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guanophore
Guest
No, I was talking about the OP, and another member saying that you were not “allowed” to be wounded by the transgressions toward your people from another generation. Healing can happen one person at a time, with people making reparation for the wrongs that were done before.
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ricko
Guest
I found several articles about the prayer but could not find the one I was referring to, anyway here is a link to one of the articles:
natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2008a/032108/032108s.htm
natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2008a/032108/032108s.htm
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vera_dicere
Guest
I’m Catholic.
I don’t pray for Jews because I don’t think they need to be prayed for by Christains, because they’re under a different agreement with God and are already saved in a different manner. The Jews have a special place in God’s heart because they’re the first who heard his great word. THat’s why there’s so much hatred against the Jews because satan hates the Jews because the Jews brought us all to God, and therefore by spreading hate in the human societies he’s attacking God’s chosen people.
I do, however, pray for a lot of christain dominations, and the SDA, JW, and Mormons.
Frankly, I don’t care if people don’t want me praying for them, I do it anyway, you tell me you’re an athetist, you’re on my prayer list, you’re an agnostic… my prayer list. Wiccan, Heathen, Hindu, Buddist… you’re on my prayer list. Had an abortion you don’t regret… you better beleive it, you’re on my prayer list.
And honestly, I have one great big prayer list!
I don’t pray for Jews because I don’t think they need to be prayed for by Christains, because they’re under a different agreement with God and are already saved in a different manner. The Jews have a special place in God’s heart because they’re the first who heard his great word. THat’s why there’s so much hatred against the Jews because satan hates the Jews because the Jews brought us all to God, and therefore by spreading hate in the human societies he’s attacking God’s chosen people.
I do, however, pray for a lot of christain dominations, and the SDA, JW, and Mormons.
Frankly, I don’t care if people don’t want me praying for them, I do it anyway, you tell me you’re an athetist, you’re on my prayer list, you’re an agnostic… my prayer list. Wiccan, Heathen, Hindu, Buddist… you’re on my prayer list. Had an abortion you don’t regret… you better beleive it, you’re on my prayer list.
And honestly, I have one great big prayer list!
K
kalt
Guest
I can see that you feel guilty for the horrible things your family did. You don’t owe anyone a debt, or an apology, for something someone else did.
And no one should blame you because of your race.
If this stupid attitude is going to change, people have to stop playing victim and abuser.
The 15-yr-old needs to be told that unless something has happened to him, nothing has happened to him, so get on with living. Quit making excuses for not achieving, not trying, wantiing to get something for nothing, or whatever usual teen complaint/excuse he’s throwing at you.
Playing into that nonsense isn’t doing him any favors. Oh, it might make him feel better for the moment. His excuses have been validated. His “anger” found a target (you).
I’m Irish. My grandparents came here when “No Irish need apply.”
And I’m Catholic. My state was supposedly founded on religious freedom. At first the only religions not allowed here were Catholicism and Judaism. Then it was only Catholicism that wasn’t allowed.
There isn’t a single person on the planet who can’t claim vicitmhood, if we take on all the wrongs perpetrated against anyone in our ancestry or race.
It’s time to get over prejudice. The attitude that anyone whose family of race was ever discrimated against is also a victim of prejudice is ludicrous. It doesn’t do anyone any good.
And “whitey”?! I hope that kid was sent to the principal’s office. If that kid had said that he doesn’t trust people of other races, nationalities or religions, using equally horrible terms for those groups, because of something someone else suffered, would he have deserved an apology?
Oh, I remember now. Whitey is fair game, as are Catholics.
Your arguments are false, imo. Your attitude is doing nothing but perpetuating the “victimhood” of people who aren’t victims. You aren’t doing them any favors.
That NA kid, I’m sure, is a perfectly capable kid. He’s angry for things that didn’t happen to him, and he’ll use that as his excuse for doing nothing.
Listen to Bill Cosby and people like him. He doesn’t deny racism, but he doesn’t use it as an excuse to do less. He doesn’t use it as an excuse to be angry with innocent people.
Using caution with strangers is normal. Why should anyone trust someone they don’t know?
But to distrust white people in general is not normal.
That NA kid is a racist.
And no one should blame you because of your race.
If this stupid attitude is going to change, people have to stop playing victim and abuser.
The 15-yr-old needs to be told that unless something has happened to him, nothing has happened to him, so get on with living. Quit making excuses for not achieving, not trying, wantiing to get something for nothing, or whatever usual teen complaint/excuse he’s throwing at you.
Playing into that nonsense isn’t doing him any favors. Oh, it might make him feel better for the moment. His excuses have been validated. His “anger” found a target (you).
I’m Irish. My grandparents came here when “No Irish need apply.”
And I’m Catholic. My state was supposedly founded on religious freedom. At first the only religions not allowed here were Catholicism and Judaism. Then it was only Catholicism that wasn’t allowed.
There isn’t a single person on the planet who can’t claim vicitmhood, if we take on all the wrongs perpetrated against anyone in our ancestry or race.
It’s time to get over prejudice. The attitude that anyone whose family of race was ever discrimated against is also a victim of prejudice is ludicrous. It doesn’t do anyone any good.
And “whitey”?! I hope that kid was sent to the principal’s office. If that kid had said that he doesn’t trust people of other races, nationalities or religions, using equally horrible terms for those groups, because of something someone else suffered, would he have deserved an apology?
Oh, I remember now. Whitey is fair game, as are Catholics.
Your arguments are false, imo. Your attitude is doing nothing but perpetuating the “victimhood” of people who aren’t victims. You aren’t doing them any favors.
That NA kid, I’m sure, is a perfectly capable kid. He’s angry for things that didn’t happen to him, and he’ll use that as his excuse for doing nothing.
Listen to Bill Cosby and people like him. He doesn’t deny racism, but he doesn’t use it as an excuse to do less. He doesn’t use it as an excuse to be angry with innocent people.
Using caution with strangers is normal. Why should anyone trust someone they don’t know?
But to distrust white people in general is not normal.
That NA kid is a racist.
No, it is not nice at all, and in fact, we do take on the hurt of generations before us. The Jews have had more hurt as a people than just about any group, not only because they have been around longer, but because of their cohesion as a people. I agree that we are not toewear the hurt or take a victim stance, but to embody the trauma of the race to which we belong, or of a people can be a very healing thing.
For example, supposing the OP were to recognize that the Jews are hurt over the prayers on account of the past abuse that accompanied them. Such a person would be in a unique position to pray for healing, because they have deeper knowlege, and a heart inclined toward healing. The prayers of those who have been enlighted in this way are much more efficacious than those of an unknowing person who attends a Liturgy where a prayer is offered for the perfidious Jews, for example.
I would say it is a blessing, and a curse. For example, my ancestors come from Europe. I was at work this week and had a 15 year old very angry native American boy tell me that he does not trust “Whitey”. Now, I have not done anything personally to him, to lose his trust, but he comes to me after generations of abuse to his people by “Whitey”.
One of my ancestors “conquered” this region, imprisoned the Natives, and chopped off the feet of those who tried to escape the reservations. Here is a chance to take what has been given to me that shared the same religion and race, and in the name of my cherished religion committed great atrocities, and bring healing to the here and now.
If I ask his forgiveness for all the injuries done to him by European Catholics, pray for him, and show him the respect and dignity that he deserves as a human being, healing can happen.
Pretending it has nothing to do with me will be throwing away an opportunity.
I think only a person who has never experienced discrimmination or racism could make such a statement. After recently celebrating MLK day, it is evident to me that slavery has victimized many generations, on both sides of it.
Acknowledging trauma is not equivalent not playing “victim”. I should think this would be obvious from the accounts of Jewish Christians in the NT. Read the religious histories of Stephen and Paul before the councils. They acknowledged the wrongs done to their race without taking a “victim” attitude.
Paul also advises that people keep their state in life, if they are slaves, to serve with honor.
Spoken like a true conquistador! The truth is that you have taken this from your ancestry.
In every line of paupers there is a royal.
I agree, but one who is in poverty need not be victimized by it, right? Yet, if one were to acknowledge the damage done over the generations from poverty, one would not be amiss.
V
Valke2
Guest
As far as I know, we have no prayer praying for your conversion. As to prayers that are derogatory to non-jews, they are directed at idolators who persecute jews and even these prayers are often changed these days, as the article you linked to points out.
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sambos671
Guest
Your replies to the prayer issue give me a drab view of Judaism. God it seems chose the Jews to be his people so that they follow a more stringent code than anyone else. That code must be followed to the letter or disaster! It seems as though God is torturing the Jews by playing a psych game with them. But if you’re a gentile. God doesn’t really care what you do as long as it isn’t totally base. So, It seems to me that a Jew would pray to be a gentile at least that way God is more merciful to you.
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Soutane
Guest
I once was called a Dogan Jew by an anti-Catholic and I STILL don’t know what that means.
My people were persecuted by the English,pushed off our land and brutalized and starved.I have a cultural prejudice against things English because of my upbringing but I don’t mistrust the average Englishman because of ancestral persecution.I even married one(EnglishWOMAN i mean.)
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sambos671
Guest
Does she boss you around?
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dzheremi
Guest
Is it weird or bad that I find myself agreeing with the Jewish poster here more than the Catholics? I understand the Catholic positions expressed here, but I cannot help but disagree with the assertion that we cannot carry the pain of previous generations. For Jews, the generations lost to the Holocaust were really not so long ago, and even if the Holocaust had never happened, the reality of their life in diaspora would seem to reinforce their historical memory, not obliterate it even as they became integrated into their adoptive societies.
If a people cannot have historical memory because it is somehow wrong to remember the historical injustices perpetuated against them (why? because it makes those responsible uncomfortable?), then what do they have? Someone else’s version of their own history.
Even among the Latin American Catholics I know, there is a certain duality at play where they are Catholic (and Latin, of course) to the bone, but they recognize that their identity as it is now is shaped at least partially by the people who brought this religion and language from Iberia. That is part of the reason why Catholicism is so successful in Latin America: the syncretism in the indigenous forms of Catholicism, which are very different than their Anglo counterparts. So they are connected with their pre-Catholic, “Indian” beliefs while maintaining their Catholicism. Would it be right to tell them to stop holding onto a past the majority of mestizos cannot authentically claim due to their separation from the native culture, by virtue of the suppression of it in the intervening years between the arrival of the Spanish and today? I wouldn’t think so. So why would you tell a Jew not to be suspicious of the Catholic prayer if everything in his people’s historical memory tell him he ought to be?
Frankly, while I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say that the Rabbis are “right” in their anger over this, I will say that I am not entirely mystified or angered by it. It makes sense to me, even after just a few minutes of trying to see things from their viewpoint.
If a people cannot have historical memory because it is somehow wrong to remember the historical injustices perpetuated against them (why? because it makes those responsible uncomfortable?), then what do they have? Someone else’s version of their own history.
Even among the Latin American Catholics I know, there is a certain duality at play where they are Catholic (and Latin, of course) to the bone, but they recognize that their identity as it is now is shaped at least partially by the people who brought this religion and language from Iberia. That is part of the reason why Catholicism is so successful in Latin America: the syncretism in the indigenous forms of Catholicism, which are very different than their Anglo counterparts. So they are connected with their pre-Catholic, “Indian” beliefs while maintaining their Catholicism. Would it be right to tell them to stop holding onto a past the majority of mestizos cannot authentically claim due to their separation from the native culture, by virtue of the suppression of it in the intervening years between the arrival of the Spanish and today? I wouldn’t think so. So why would you tell a Jew not to be suspicious of the Catholic prayer if everything in his people’s historical memory tell him he ought to be?
Frankly, while I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say that the Rabbis are “right” in their anger over this, I will say that I am not entirely mystified or angered by it. It makes sense to me, even after just a few minutes of trying to see things from their viewpoint.
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