Prayer at Reformation Day attended by the Pope

[SyroMalankara]

That question was answered back in 1984 by Cardinal Ratzinger, in an interview he gave to Communio.

*Question: Would it be realistic for the Catholic Church to lift Luther’s excommunication on the basis of the results of more recent scholarship?

Cardinal Ratzinger: In order to do full justice to this question one must differentiate between excommunication as a judicial measure on the part of the legal community of the Church against a certain person, and the factual reasons which led to such a step.

Since the Church’s jurisdiction naturally only extends to the living, the excommunication of a person ends with his death. Consequently, any questions dealing with the lifting of Luther’s excommunication become moot: Luther’s excommunication terminated with his death because judgment after death is reserved to God alone. Luther’s excommunication does not have to be lifted; it has long since ceased to exist.*

Didn’t Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras lift the mutual excommunications of 1054? I assume all those excommunicated were long dead as well, however, the act seemed to have extended to the particular Churches and their members.

 

[steido01]

There is so much wrong with the bishops document. It implies, if not even states, that the Lutherans have a valid priesthood through the laying on of hands, they have the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It implies that the Lutherans have apostolic succession… I could go on and on.

Well, some Lutherans do have AS even by Catholic standards. Lutherans, of course, would say that all their ordinations are valid.

 

[Peter_J]

Didn’t Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras lift the mutual excommunications of 1054? I assume all those excommunicated were long dead as well, however, the act seemed to have extended to the particular Churches and their members.

I would point out that many people used to make much more of 1054 than it really was – many still do, even, but the lifting of the excommunications has helped straighten out the real history.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

There is so much wrong with the bishops document. It implies, if not even states, that the Lutherans have a valid priesthood through the laying on of hands, they have the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It implies that the Lutherans have apostolic succession… I could go on and on.

That was a huge document Fr. posted! Did you read it all?

 

[Peter_J]

That was a huge document Fr. posted! Did you read it all?

Protesting is easier.

 

[SyroMalankara]

There is so much wrong with the bishops document. It implies, if not even states, that the Lutherans have a valid priesthood through the laying on of hands, they have the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It implies that the Lutherans have apostolic succession… I could go on and on.

Some forget to read page 71, including some of the folks that were part of this ‘dialogue’ :
The Swedish-Finnish dialogue gave in 2010 an account of
Eucharist and church unity, in which the commission proceeded
from very basic aspects to draw on Augustine’s interpretation of
key Pauline texts:
The Eucharist, or Holy Communion, is already by definition
a public or a communal event. Jesus Christ unites all those
who partake of his body and blood. Holy Communion thus
expresses and strengthens the spiritual communion that
exists between Christ and the individual Christian, between
the church and its members, and between different local
churches. Those who share the common bread and wine
should profess their common faith and share all their joy
and all their suffering with one another. As members of the
body of Christ, we become participants of the life of Christ
as well as of the life of one another (1 Corinthians 12:27).
The Church Father St Augustine exhorts us to fellowship,
which culminates in the Eucharist: “‘Only one bread,’ he

• says. Regardless of the many breads that are
  distributed, it is still ‘only one bread.’ Regardless of how
  many breads remain on the altars of Christ across the
  whole earth, it is still ‘only one bread.’ But what is this ‘one
  bread’? He expounds it in the shortest possible way, ‘though
  many, we are only one body.’ This bread, which is the body
  of Christ, the apostle calls the church: ‘You are the body of
  Christ, and each one of you is its member.’ What you receive,
  that you are, by grace, through “which you are saved, and
  you confirm that we are all one when you answer ‘Amen.’ It
  is, as you see, the sacrament of unity (§ 220).45
  The dialogue group concluded: “Catholics and Lutherans agree
  that Holy Communion is a celebration of solidarity” (§ 221). For
  this reason, our present inability to share Eucharistic communion
  on a regular basis reveals all the more dramatically our ongoing
  need for fullness of unity in faith, practice, and, eventually,
  Eucharistic sharing.*

 

[Third_Day]

That was a huge document Fr. posted! Did you read it all?

Yes and I am perplexed by it. From my reading of it the USCCB professes that the Lutherans have apostolic succession, valid ordination of their priests, they receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharistic.For Example

C. Agreements on the Eucharist

High Esteem for Eucharistic Union with Christ in Holy Communion (27) Lutherans and Catholics agree in esteeming highly the spiritual benefits of union with the risen Christ given to them as they receive his body and blood in Holy Communion. Trinitarian Dimension of Eucharist (28) Catholics and Lutherans agree that in Eucharistic worship the church participates in a unique way in the life of the Trinity: In the power of the Holy Spirit, called down upon the gifts and the worshiping community, believers have access to the glorified flesh and blood of Christ the Son as our food, and are brought in union with him and with each other to the Father. Eucharistic Presence (30) Lutherans and Catholics agree that in the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, Jesus Christ himself is present: He is present truly, substantially, as a person, and he is present in his entirety, as Son of God and a human being."

If’ I’m wrong I need someone to show me where. It even seems to present ways to get around the ordination of women which some Lutherans accept.

It hasn’t been formally approved by the entire bishops conference but who’s going to stop it? If I were a Lutheran I certainly wouldn’t see any reason to become Catholic.

 

[GKC]

Yes and I am perplexed by it. From my reading of it the USCCB professes that the Lutherans have apostolic succession, valid ordination of their priests, they receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharistic.For Example

C. Agreements on the Eucharist

High Esteem for Eucharistic Union with Christ in Holy Communion (27) Lutherans and Catholics agree in esteeming highly the spiritual benefits of union with the risen Christ given to them as they receive his body and blood in Holy Communion. Trinitarian Dimension of Eucharist (28) Catholics and Lutherans agree that in Eucharistic worship the church participates in a unique way in the life of the Trinity: In the power of the Holy Spirit, called down upon the gifts and the worshiping community, believers have access to the glorified flesh and blood of Christ the Son as our food, and are brought in union with him and with each other to the Father. Eucharistic Presence (30) Lutherans and Catholics agree that in the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, Jesus Christ himself is present: He is present truly, substantially, as a person, and he is present in his entirety, as Son of God and a human being."

If’ I’m wrong I need someone to show me where. It even seems to present ways to get around the ordination of women which some Lutherans accept.

It hasn’t been formally approved by the entire bishops conference but who’s going to stop it? If I were a Lutheran I certainly wouldn’t see any reason to become Catholic.

I think it says that on the doctrinal points listed, Lutherans and RCs agree on the nature of the Eucharist. It doesn’t seem to say that there is agreement on whether both Lutherans and RCs each receive the Eucharist, as defined there. Which, it would seem, would require some sort of statement saying that they agree that both the Lutheran and the RC sacrament of the Eucharist is confected and received, in each Church, as described, not that each Church believes that it is.

 

[Peter_J]

If I were a Lutheran I certainly wouldn’t see any reason to become Catholic.

As a Catholic, I certainly – certainly – don’t see any reason that I should become Lutheran.

 

[Peter_J]

I think it says that on the doctrinal points listed, Lutherans and RCs agree on the nature of the Eucharist.

To a point. IIUC Lutherenas believe that the bread and the wine continue to be present.

 

[GKC]

To a point. IIUC Lutherenas believe that the bread and the wine continue to be present.

If so, amended to say that on the points listed, there is agreement, as stated. It’s at a high level of abstraction, not down to the working level of how does it do all that.

 

[Peter_J]

It’s at a high level of abstraction, not down to the working level of how does it do all that.

You may be right. In any case, I trust my shepherds (one of the nice things about being Catholic, in case that hasn’t been mentioned to you in your decades of doing this ).

 

[GKC]

You may be right. In any case, I trust my shepherds (one of the nice things about being Catholic, in case that hasn’t been mentioned to you in your decades of doing this ).

Decade and a quarter, roughly.

Seems I’ve read something along those lines, yes.

 

[R_H_Benson]

“The Mass is the greatest blasphemy of God, and the highest idolatry upon earth, an abomination the like of which has never been in Christendom since the time of the Apostles.”

-Martin Luther

 

[SyroMalankara]

On the face of it, it is more than a bit odd that the Pope accepted this invitation. Would the ELCA celebrate Split off Day to commemorate the LCMS/WELS restoration? This is a one sided article, however, it almost highlights the point that one or the other leader in this Lutheran-Catholic lovefest is in denial either about the cause of division or the current reason for continued divide: theaquilareport.com/elca-has-biggest-split-in-american-church-history/

Would the TEC celebrate ACNA Formation Day? Or the PCUSA join in the Orthodox Presbyterian Day BBQ?

In India the Marthoma Church likes to revel in their Reformation Day festivities by highlighting how they restored themselves from the “corrupt” “unbiblical” practices of both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. They don’t celebrate the Creation of the St. Thomas Evangelical Church/Fellowship Day since many of their clergy and parishioners still feel it’s sting

 

[Peter_J]

In India the Marthoma Church likes to revel in their Reformation Day festivities by highlighting how they restored themselves from the “corrupt” “unbiblical” practices of both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

Sad, I’d say, but not outside the realm of possibilities – just as it would not be outside the realm of possibilities if the Pope chose to revel about Lutherans “falling into error”, being “unhistorical” and so on. (But I have a feeling he won’t. )

 

[steido01]

On the face of it, it is more than a bit odd that the Pope accepted this invitation. Would the ELCA celebrate Split off Day to commemorate the LCMS/WELS restoration? This is a one sided article, however, it almost highlights the point that one or the other leader in this Lutheran-Catholic lovefest is in denial either about the cause of division or the current reason for continued divide: theaquilareport.com/elca-has-biggest-split-in-american-church-history/

Only tangentially related, but terrifically informative link. Thanks for the new blog to follow.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Sad, I’d say, but not outside the realm of possibilities – just as it would not be outside the realm of possibilities if the Pope chose to revel about Lutherans “falling into error”, being “unhistorical” and so on. (But I have a feeling he won’t. )

Here’s how the Marthoma Reformation Day was hailed in 2011 by the WCC:
christianmessenger.in/wcc-chief-calls-for-reformation-of-mar-thoma-church/

REV. Olav Fyske Tveit, general secretary of the Geneva-based World Council of Churches, has called for reformation and renewal in church by going ‘back to the basics’ and to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Describing the reformation in the Mar Thoma Church as a return to the “purity of the life and practice of the early church”, he pointed to the preaching of the word of God which led to the reformation of thought and revival. “Reformation requires a unity in which we challenge one another,” Rev. Tveit said. He was speaking at a valedictory meeting to celebrate the 175th anniversary of reformation in the Mar Thoma Church.

The Mar Thoma church traces its faith to St. Thomas the Apostle who is said to have reached Kerala in A.D. 52 with spice merchants from the Middle East and died a martyr in 72 A.D. at Mylapore. The church treats August 16, 1836 as its ‘reformation’ day and later assumed the name Mar Thoma (church of St. Thomas) after breaking away from the Orthodox fold under the influence of Anglican theology. He said, “It has been recorded that the reformation in the Malankara Church brought powerful currents of change in church and society, and it helped the church disown practices that needed to be corrected and break off the fetters of spiritual and moral bankruptcy.” “The gift of the cross binds us together. Our open arms can be a sign of the ecumenical movement of the cross, showing that we need one another,” said the general secretary.
Tveit hailed the Mar Thoma church’s “blending of two characteristic traits of the eastern ecclesial tradition and ethos as well as your reformation ideals corresponding to … reformation movements in the Western Church.” “The ancient roots of your church are always reminding you how the church must go back to the basic, to the Gospel of the crucified and risen Jesus Christ, for which St. Thomas went to India,” he said.

Something for Catholics and Orthodox to celebrate, our remaining in “spiritual and moral bankruptcy,” another reason to let the WCC do it’s own thing without any Orthodox support or Catholic “observers”. Ironically, or incidentally, Olav Fyske Tveit is a Norwegian Lutheran theologian, and his bio states “at the time of his election, Tveit was the general secretary of the Church of Norway Council on Ecumenical and International Relations (2002-09).” The disdain comes from the top and even especially from smiling glad-handers.

 

[GKC]

On the face of it, it is more than a bit odd that the Pope accepted this invitation. Would the ELCA celebrate Split off Day to commemorate the LCMS/WELS restoration? This is a one sided article, however, it almost highlights the point that one or the other leader in this Lutheran-Catholic lovefest is in denial either about the cause of division or the current reason for continued divide: theaquilareport.com/elca-has-biggest-split-in-american-church-history/

Would the TEC celebrate ACNA Formation Day? Or the PCUSA join in the Orthodox Presbyterian Day BBQ?

In India the Marthoma Church likes to revel in their Reformation Day festivities by highlighting how they restored themselves from the “corrupt” “unbiblical” practices of both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. They don’t celebrate the Creation of the St. Thomas Evangelical Church/Fellowship Day since many of their clergy and parishioners still feel it’s sting

Would you want the Pope emulating the TEC?

 

[Peter_J]

Here’s how the Marthoma Reformation Day was hailed in 2011 by the WCC:
christianmessenger.in/wcc-chief-calls-for-reformation-of-mar-thoma-church/

REV. Olav Fyske Tveit, general secretary of the Geneva-based World Council of Churches, has called for reformation and renewal in church by going ‘back to the basics’ and to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Describing the reformation in the Mar Thoma Church as a return to the “purity of the life and practice of the early church”, he pointed to the preaching of the word of God which led to the reformation of thought and revival. “Reformation requires a unity in which we challenge one another,” Rev. Tveit said. He was speaking at a valedictory meeting to celebrate the 175th anniversary of reformation in the Mar Thoma Church.

The Mar Thoma church traces its faith to St. Thomas the Apostle who is said to have reached Kerala in A.D. 52 with spice merchants from the Middle East and died a martyr in 72 A.D. at Mylapore. The church treats August 16, 1836 as its ‘reformation’ day and later assumed the name Mar Thoma (church of St. Thomas) after breaking away from the Orthodox fold under the influence of Anglican theology. He said, “It has been recorded that the reformation in the Malankara Church brought powerful currents of change in church and society, and it helped the church disown practices that needed to be corrected and break off the fetters of spiritual and moral bankruptcy.” “The gift of the cross binds us together. Our open arms can be a sign of the ecumenical movement of the cross, showing that we need one another,” said the general secretary.
Tveit hailed the Mar Thoma church’s “blending of two characteristic traits of the eastern ecclesial tradition and ethos as well as your reformation ideals corresponding to … reformation movements in the Western Church.” “The ancient roots of your church are always reminding you how the church must go back to the basic, to the Gospel of the crucified and risen Jesus Christ, for which St. Thomas went to India,” he said.

Exactly.

It would be nice if we had a copyright on all polemics and polemical arguments. The royalties would probably make up for all unpaid tithes.