Prayer is an illusion

[LilyM]

Historicity? That is disputed, at best. And also, searching historical and archaeological evidence to support what? The gospel accounts? Try explaining this. There is no evidence for which the texts contradict each other. Really, what did happen at easter? In a court of law, when someone is contradicting him/herself telling their account, they usually declare the account untrustworthy and discard it.

None of the witnesses contradict THEMSELVES - though they may contradict other witnesses. And yes, contradictory evidence means a legal case fails. We’re not talking legal standards of proof here, but historical ones.

And historical standards of evidence are a little more forgiving. Even the four somewhat different gospel accounts are normal - try reading four different independent ancient accounts of any historical event written more than 20 years after the events they describe!

 

[LogosSokratikos]

prayer is appreciation and happiness.

That is slighting the argument. The bible says “ask and thou shalt recieve”. I am not easily confused, believe me. That’s what the thread is about. Reducing prayer to “appreciation and happiness” is to sidetrack the obvious conundrum.

Something atheists are so upset about, because they’re searching for meaning in themselves. and never find it. because thats not where the meaning is.

You are assuming I haven’t found meaning in my life. I find meaning in love, learning, and quite simply, living.

I find it that many christians have that weird unfounded belief that atheists find no meaning in their lives. Believe me, I’d find my life unbearable if it didn’t have any meaning. I’d hate to spend my life watching football on sundays, doing nothing but bother the wife scratching my fat belly (just a phrase, I don’t have a wife nor a fat belly). My life is intense, I do my best to take advantage of every minute, seek happiness and wellfare for me and the greatest number of people around me. I have goals and cherished values. My life is very meaningful.

Just because Christians can’t find meaning except in a deity, doesn’t mean others have that necessity. Assuming others to be like oneself is an form of hasty generalization.

 

[caille]

Anytime you try to use scientific means to prove or disprove anything about religious matters you’ve set yourself up for failure. Stephen Jay Gould referred to nonoverlapping magisteria, which is as good an explanation as I’ve heard yet.
Absence of evidence should never be used to prove evidence of absence.

 

[thechrismyster]

You are assuming I haven’t found meaning in my life. I find meaning in love, learning, and quite simply, living.

I’m not sure if your familiar with the 1972 movie “Deliverence” with Burt Reynolds, Ronny Cox, Jon Voight, and Ned Beatty…

right now in this thread, on Catholic Answers forum’s website is the Cahulawassee River…

I can only thing of Lewis asking Ed…

Ed: Well, the system’s done all right by me.
Lewis: Oh yeah. You gotta nice job, you gotta nice house, a nice wife, a nice kid.
Ed: You make that sound rather s–tty, Lewis.
Lewis: Why do you go on these trips with me, Ed?
Ed: I like my life, Lewis.
Lewis: Yeah, but why do you go on these trips with me?

---

Why are you on this river right now? you are so filled with certainty in what you believe… why did you seek us out?

was it to deliver us? or you?

 

[thechrismyster]

My life is very meaningful.

and yet, by not a single merit of your own do you continue to draw a breath or a heartbeat.

yet you are the master of yourself. you can’t even make a single cell by your own power. yet you are your master and the pentultimate measure of your own belief.

The lightbulb that screams it lights up on its own accord because of its own magnificence just because it can’t see the electricty that makes it glow.

i don’t understand that logic. Good luck in your search. you’ll be taken where you need to go.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

Absence of evidence should never be used to prove evidence of absence.

I’m not coming from an absence of evidence standpoint. I’m approaching this issue focusing on the negative outcome test of a hypothesis, namely, the failed promise of “ask and thou shalt recieve”. It is a positive approach (“there’s something wrong here”) rather than a negative approach (“there’s nothing here”).

Anytime you try to use scientific means to prove or disprove anything about religious matters you’ve set yourself up for failure. Stephen Jay Gould referred to nonoverlapping magisteria, which is as good an explanation as I’ve heard yet.

I’m not interested in the pretty rationalizations of Stephen Gould.
When Catholic and Protestant apologists confront each other and argue for or against sola scritpura, papal authority, authority of tradition, etc, they are attempting to approach from critical thinking. When a Christian apologist (of whatever persuation) argues for a historic Jesus, they’re appealing to evidence. When a process of canonization or in the event of a supposed miracle, the church is there to examine the evidence.

An appeal to the empirical and the rational when it’s convenient, and “nonoverlapping magisteria” when it is expedient?
Give
me
a
break.

That’s got “Rip-off!” written all over it.

 

[cheeto1]

the failed promise of “ask and thou shalt recieve”.

An appeal to the empirical and the rational when it’s convenient, and “nonoverlapping magisteria” when it is expedient?
Give
me
a
break.

That’s got “Rip-off!” written all over it.

I don’t even know what all that means. I guess you’re a lot
smarter than I am. But I did ask for faith, and I received.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

…] yet you are the master of yourself. you can’t even make a single cell by your own power. yet you are your master and the pentultimate measure of your own belief.

I do not set myself as the measure of my own belief as much as you do. The measure of my beliefs I lay at the feet of testable reality. I refuse to subscribe to unwarranted tenets out of dusty old books wriiten by ignorant men hundreds and even thousands of years ago.

and yet, by not a single merit of your own do you continue to draw a breath or a heartbeat.

Merits do not create body cells. I don’t believe I am alive by my own merits or those of anyone else’s, but because one night approximately nine months before a certain october, my parents got playful. Furthermore, I cannot create a single cell by my own, but my single cells do. In fact they’re the only ones that can. Amoebas generate amoebas, e. coli generate e. coli, liver cells generate liver cells, bone marrow cells create blood cells. Also, merits don’t make heart pumps, but synchronized mioelectrical discharges. Biology 101.
I am part of the great dance of life, I am but a part of this great universe, stardust from millions of years ago and millions and millions of miles away. Ok, I’ll stop the Carl Sagan bit here, enough is enough, you probably got the picture.

The lightbulb that screams it lights up on its own accord because of its own magnificence just because it can’t see the electricty that makes it glow.

i don’t understand that logic. Good luck in your search. you’ll be taken where you need to go.

Me neither, I do not understand that logic. You set up a strawman, intending us to believe I believe myself to be “magnificent”, when I do not. I’m great, not magnificent. I bet you’re great too. If you don’t think so, I’m sorry for your low self esteem. I recommend to you the reading of desiderata, for you are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars, you have the right to be here.
You are not a sad little roach that deserves damnation. I denounce the sad theologies that deny men inherent dignity to be loved and cherished in stead of being coaxed, threatened and demanded ascetic extremes, I denounce any theology that belittles human intelligence and intends to convince that we are all culpable for the sin of a mythical ancestor far away, of which we didn’t have any part nor parcel, and that we “deserve” to die and perish in eternal damnation lest we feel guilty for just being human because of it. And BTW, that’s no “good news” (evangelion), it’s a tragic threat to intelligence and to overall wellbeing.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

I don’t even know what all that means. I guess you’re a lot
smarter than I am. But I did ask for faith, and I received.

You were indoctrinated from a very small age into believing that the stuff of tall tales (walking on water, virgin births, winged beings, etc) were real, at an age when you didn’t even have the most basic notions of reality yet (commonly called the preoperational stage), then you grew up, and then you asked for faith and got it (got it, not out of the blue, as you can see).

Just ponder on this: Would you pray to Vishnu (hindu deity) if you weren’t indoctrinated into believing it first? Of course not. Hindu kids pray to Vishnu, American kids pray to Jesus. You prayed for faith, and you already had it. Mystery solved. No spooks, just verbal conditioning.

 

[thechrismyster]

I refuse to subscribe to unwarranted tenets out of dusty old books wriiten by ignorant men hundreds and even thousands of years ago…

well, enjoy your journey. I believe we all walk the journey alone with God. if you don’t, thats your belief.

which you vehemently defend.

making that a belief.

so you’re just like us, on the other side of the coin.

welcome.

and i have to know, why did you seek us out at a Catholic forum board? Why do you waste your time on us people who believe things found in dusty old books?

 

[thechrismyster]

You set up a strawman.

on a tangent, one thing i HATE about atheistic sites is they throw the ‘strawman’ defense around like it’s rice at a wedding. that and ‘ad hominem’ attacks are their favorite chants.

if it wasn’t for all the ‘freethought’ sites, those words wouldn’t be in popular usage.

and there is nothing less ‘free’ than ‘freethought’… go to 100 freethinker pages… it’s the same 3 paragraphs just rewritten over and over and over ad naseum…

 

[thechrismyster]

Just ponder on this: Would you pray to Vishnu (hindu deity) if you weren’t indoctrinated into believing it first? Of course not. Hindu kids pray to Vishnu, American kids pray to Jesus. You prayed for faith, and you already had it. Mystery solved. No spooks, just verbal conditioning.

wow, we’ve never thought about that before…

you’re a bore. there have been dozens before you, and there will be dozens after you with the same ‘just think about this’…

what year of high school or college are you in?

 

[Bennie_P]

If Christian prayer has no special effect, then God does not answer prayers at all. If God does not answer prayers, God does not exist.

I’m now convienced. Truth

 

[LogosSokratikos]

well, enjoy your journey. I believe we all walk the journey alone with God. if you don’t, thats your belief.

which you vehemently defend.

making that a belief.

so you’re just like us, on the other side of the coin.

welcome.

and i have to know, why did you seek us out at a Catholic forum board? Why do you waste your time on us people who believe things found in dusty old books?

Of course it’s a belief. Everything in one’s head is. But I’m a tad different than you. The difference is that my beliefs I put them to reality test, instead of wondering what the guy on Vatican hill (or any other location) thinks I should believe. And yes, I defend my sense of reality “vehemently”, because I find it a moral value to avoid getting scammed and helping others to do so too.

And I agree that journeys with God are lonely. Quite lonely. Curiously lonely. Suspiciously lonely. Lonely lonely.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

wow, we’ve never thought about that before…

you’re a bore. there have been dozens before you, and there will be dozens after you with the same ‘just think about this’…

what year of high school or college are you in?

Numero uno: Fallacia per argumento ad hominem.

you’re a bore.

Thank you. So kind. In contrast, I think you’re all right, even if critical thinking and divergent ideas bore you. I find it exciting, and I’m sure others here do too, which isn’t surprising, coming from a church that produced scholasticism.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

Originally Posted by LogosSokratikos
You set up a strawman.

If it has the tail of a cat, four legs like a cat, whiskers like a cat, and meows like a cat, you can be sure it’s not a parakeet. If you don’t like to be told “it’s a strawman”, well, then, don’t make them. Simple as that.

if it wasn’t for all the ‘freethought’ sites, those words wouldn’t be in popular usage.

I am sure that if they heard that, they would thank you for the compliment. I am sure education in logic is one of their primary goals.

and there is nothing less ‘free’ than ‘freethought’… go to 100 freethinker pages… it’s the same 3 paragraphs just rewritten over and over and over ad naseum…

You’re exagerating. They’re just 2 paragraphs written over and over.

And yes, there’s nothing free in “freethought”. It’s all dogma fixed by councils spanning from the late Roman Empire to our day.

 

[Benedictus]

on a tangent, one thing i HATE about atheistic sites is they throw the ‘strawman’ defense around like it’s rice at a wedding. that and ‘ad hominem’ attacks are their favorite chants.

if it wasn’t for all the ‘freethought’ sites, those words wouldn’t be in popular usage.

The fact remains that they are logical fallacies.

 

[Diddi]

Wonderful stories like those come into my inbox all month. They’re anecdotes. Their value is just the same as me saying, “Hey, ETs from Orion’s Belt just contacted me…” etc, you know what I mean.

If I believed in those anecodtes I’d be five different religions already! I would’t feel sorry for those atheists God didn’t throw them a Chevy at the right moment and went to hell, 'cause dang, I’m saved and I’m going to heaven with a “loving” God with no sense of Justice.

Remember, there’s no salvation except in the Catholic Church. Therefore, nearly all these folks:

http://religion-cults.com/Overview/rel_pie.gif
… most of the pie don’t get their Chevy, won’t find the saving faith. Will you look at the pie, consider your chances of having found the saving faith, and think “Oh how God loves me”? Why not wonder why God hates everyone else! (Clue: Maybe theism doesn’t hold water, and following it creates these preposterous paradoxes, scenarios or whatever you want to call them… they’re still squarely contradictions).

And I wonder if God would through in a Chevy in infidel Somalia, they could sell them for food and go to heaven.

It just doesn’t happen. Also, why would an atheist pray? Because society brainwashes us into that, and therefore is actually doubting of the fact?

God saying “Oh I’m going to test these dumb, faulty humans, give them no evidence, hundreds of competing religions, and then hold them accountable for not believing” is like me testing a remote control car with worn out batteries, and then kicking the shoot out of it for not running. Should that god exist, it could be considered to be suffering from a personality disorder.

Hi Logos (Greek for “thought”),

You’re doing well. Nice argument. I could make the same types of arguments and did so all the time when I was atheist. God answers all sorts of peoples’ prayers, all the time, not just Catholics. I felt just like you do until one day, I abandoned my precious logic and gave myself to Christ. I screamed my prayer at Him, told him He was a hoax, then on a whim, gave myself to Chist and meant it. Then real miracles happened – to me (the skeptic with the science degrees), but you wouldn’t believe them. You haven’t abandoned yourself to God yet. You still have to be in control. There is nothing I can do or say if you are unwilling to let go, but at least I’m trying. It’s really up to you.

The purpose of my story was to point out that even when (if you are looking for God, I expect you to find Him) you, LogosSokratikos, behold a miracle that finally convinces you that God is real, then even you, the mighty Logos will find it impossible to convince Exalt or someone else like you that it really happened. Yes, real miracles happened in my life. It makes my wife and I giddy to think about them but it will take your own miracles to convince someone like you. I will pray for you. God bless.

In Christ,

Diddi

 

[tdgesq]

And yes, there’s nothing free in “freethought”. It’s all dogma fixed by councils spanning from the late Roman Empire to our day.

Right. Your dogmas are just much more recent than ours, which somehow makes them more legitimate. If this isn’t immediately obvious to everyone, they are clearly fools. Btw, how many of your “free” thinking friends are determinists? Lol!

Anyway, to the topic at hand. The study is ridiculous and was doomed to failure from the outset. They should have paid me the millions and I could have told them that God doesn’t grant every request that’s made of him. I also find it interesting that anyone would presume that they could find a statistically significant correlation between prayer and the decision of a perfectly free entity, especially when the entity is claimed to be omniscient. Even if the study established a correlation, you can bet that causation would be attributed to the suggestive power of the mind or something else other than God. What a waste of time. I am interested in seeing the actual paper though for my own amusement.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

Hi Logos (Greek for “thought”),

You’re doing well. Nice argument. I could make the same types of arguments and did so all the time when I was atheist. God answers all sorts of peoples’ prayers, all the time, not just Catholics. I felt just like you do until one day, I abandoned my precious logic and gave myself to Christ. I screamed my prayer at Him, told him He was a hoax, then on a whim, gave myself to Chist and meant it. Then real miracles happened – to me (the skeptic with the science degrees), but you wouldn’t believe them. You haven’t abandoned yourself to God yet. You still have to be in control. There is nothing I can do or say if you are unwilling to let go, but at least I’m trying. It’s really up to you.

The purpose of my story was to point out that even when (if you are looking for God, I expect you to find Him) you, LogosSokratikos, behold a miracle that finally convinces you that God is real, then even you, the mighty Logos will find it impossible to convince Exalt or someone else like you that it really happened. Yes, real miracles happened in my life. It makes my wife and I giddy to think about them but it will take your own miracles to convince someone like you. I will pray for you. God bless.

In Christ,

Diddi

I understand that it won’t sound nice at all, but, in general, if you throw away logic any belief is possible.

Thanks for the “powerful”, but I wouldn’t put someone like me on that pedestal. I’m just doing some socratic dialogue. Do you mean I’m doing it well? If so, thanks!

Your prayers are appreciated, notwithstanding the title of the thread, they reveal goodwill and a warm, open heart.

Cheers,
Lógos Sokratikós