Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[guanophore]

Here is a prayer that i will pray not only for you but everyone out on this forum. Its from Ephesians 3

**14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,

15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,

16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,

19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,

21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

**

 

[Church_Militant]

Ja4 seems to have missed a couple of crucial lessons in Catholic teaching (or just prefers to fool you guys by intentionally ignoring them, while hoping you will too) that she.has seen here many times.

1. Catholics are not adherents to the fundamental error of Sola Scriptura, which frees us from the silly notion that everything that we believe and practice has to be found somewhere in the Bible.
2. The Communion of Saints is definitively found in scripture as the excellent MP3 Bible study in that link shows. That communion is vital to the intercession of saints. Simple as that…

Maybe some day she’ll stop trying to get us to ignore what we have repeatedly told her we believe and either become Catholic and/or maybe go start posting over at that main atheistic forum.

 

[justasking4]

Ja4 seems to have missed a couple of crucial lessons in Catholic teaching (or just prefers to fool you guys by intentionally ignoring them, while hoping you will too) that she.has seen here many times.

1. Catholics are not adherents to the fundamental error of Sola Scriptura, which frees us from the silly notion that everything that we believe and practice has to be found somewhere in the Bible.
2. The Communion of Saints is definitively found in scripture as the excellent MP3 Bible study in that link shows. That communion is vital to the intercession of saints. Simple as that…

Maybe some day she’ll stop trying to get us to ignore what we have repeatedly told her we believe and either become Catholic and/or maybe go start posting over at that main atheistic forum.

Haven’t seen you in awhile and thought maybe you put me on your ignore list…View attachment 4477

Your fellow catholics here could sure use your help…

 

[sandusky]

The schism was not over the fact that the Bishop of Rome was called the “See of Peter.” Even Ecumenical Councils accepted by Orthodoxy understand it to be such.

According to an Eastern Orthodox text:

The schism has to do with the disagreement about what that primacy means, not whether or not that primacy exists.

One thing led to the other.

 

[sandusky]

I have to concur that your mere disagreement with authentic Christianity doesn’t amount to a compelling argument to cease praying as Christians of every century since the advent of Christ have prayed.

Here’s a prayer I’ll offer up on your behalf, one that comes from a 3rd century papyrus (ca. AD 250) which predates the canon of Scripture:

Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.

This proves only what the people were doing, and not that what they were doing was according to the testimony.

Israel engaged in similar practices, and they were punished for their sin.

 

[AshleyBelle]

This proves only what the people were doing, and not that what they were doing was according to the testimony.

Israel engaged in similar practices, and they were punished for their sin.

So are you saying that the very first Christians already had it wrong?

 

[sandusky]

So are you saying that the very first Christians already had it wrong?

:yup:

 

[AshleyBelle]

:yup:

Oh ok…then I guess I can’t trust the Bible. If they were already so far off track, how can I trust they chose the right books?

 

[sandusky]

Oh ok…then I guess I can’t trust the Bible. If they were already so far off track, how can I trust they chose the right books?

Even the wrong aren’t wrong all the time, but only when they don’t line up with scripture.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Even the wrong aren’t wrong all the time, but only when they don’t line up with scripture.

How could they line up or not line up with Scripture? They didn’t HAVE scripture until they chose it.
So... these Christians didn't have any Bible for a long time... But then one day the decided to put together a book that contradicted the traditions they'd been practicing all along! Now I understand!

 

[sandusky]

How could they line up or not line up with Scripture? They didn’t HAVE scripture until they chose it.

They had Scripture, Ashley, and they knew how to identify it (2 Pet 3:16).
AsleyBelle:

So… these Christians didn’t have any Bible for a long time… But then one day the decided to put together a book that contradicted the traditions they’d been practicing all along! Now I understand!

Scripture doesn’t suddenly become Scripture when it’s canonized, but, it’s canonized because
it is Scripture.

 

[AshleyBelle]

They had Scripture, Ashley, and they knew how to identify it (2 Pet 3:16).

Scripture doesn’t suddenly become Scripture when it’s canonized, but, it’s canonized because
it is Scripture.

Who came up with the criteria to identify what constituted itself AS Scripture?

And if they did indeed recognize these books… Why would they have ignored what they already KNEW to be scripture for 1500 years until Luther came along to clarify it for us?

For 1500 years… the church put together this book called the Bible… But had no idea what it really said. The infallibly put this book together despite the fact they were making all the contradictory mistakes with their man made traditions…

They can put together all these books for us INFALLIBLY without error, but make all these mistakes doctrinally about salvation, the authority putting the books together, and Christian practices?

So…the holy spirit was guiding them, but not REALLY guiding them until Luther? Was the Holy Spirit guiding them to put together the books of the Bible AND guiding them to make all these mistakes in practice… Or was the Holy Spirit not guiding them at all? In which case, how do we know they did ANYTHING right?

Good thing Luther came along to fill in the gaps for us!

 

[mercygate]

They had Scripture, Ashley, and they knew how to identify it (2 Pet 3:16).

Scripture doesn’t suddenly become Scripture when it’s canonized, but, it’s canonized because
it is Scripture.

2 Pet nearly didn’t make the canon.

As for Scripture being Scripture whether or not it is canonized, that cannot be true. The very definition of “canon” means that the included texts meet the measure. I.e., the writings met standards set by the Church.

 

[sandusky]

AshleyBelle:

Who came up with the criteria to identify what constituted itself AS Scripture?

God.

AshleyBelle:

And if they did indeed recognize these books… Why would they have ignored what they already KNEW to be scripture for 1500 years until Luther came along to clarify it for us?

What does Luther have to do with this?

AshleyBelle:

For 1500 years… the church put together this book called the Bible. But had no idea what it really said.

Limiting it to the topic of this thread, ISTM that’s right.

AshleyBelle:

The infallibly put this book together despite the fact they were making all the contradictory mistakes with their man made traditions…

Men are not infallible.

AshleyBelle:

They can put together all these books for us INFALLIBLY without error, but make all these mistakes doctrinally about salvation, the authority putting the books together, and Christian practices?

Men are not infallible, so yes, that’s a reasonable proposition.

AshleyBelle:

So…the holy spirit was guiding them, but not REALLY guiding them until Luther?

What does Luther have to do with this?

AshleyBelle:

Was the Holy Spirit guiding them to put together the books of the Bible AND guiding them to make all these mistakes in practice…

Obviously not, but even those in error, by God’s will, get some things right (Jn 11:49-52).

AshleyBelle:

Or was the Holy Spirit not guiding them at all? In which case, how do we know they did ANYTHING right?

Good question.

AshleyBelle:

Good thing Luther came along to fill in the gaps for us!

What does Luther have to do with this?

 

[sandusky]

2 Pet nearly didn’t make the canon.

Peter’s statement assumes a knowledge on his part, and on the part of his readers, of what constituted scripture at that time, the OT, and the writings of Paul, and by extension, the writings of the apostles.

mercygate:

As for Scripture being Scripture whether or not it is canonized, that cannot be true.

Not so, as I said above to Ashley. Scripture doesn’t miraculously become scripture when canonized, but is canonized because it is scripture.

mercygate:

The very definition of “canon” means that the included texts meet the measure. I.e., the writings met standards set by the Church.

Right.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Peter’s statement assumes a knowledge on his part, and on the part of his readers, of what constituted scripture at that time, the OT, and the writings of Paul, and by extension, the writings of the apostles.

Not so, as I said above to Ashley. Scripture doesn’t miraculously become scripture when canonized, but is canonized because it is scripture.

Right.

Did God directly give us the Bible?

Did Jesus hand us the scriptures before He ascended into heaven?

Or perhaps, the Holy Spirit, did INFALLIBLY guide the fallible men in the church so that we would have the scriptures God truly inspired in the canon. Either the Holy Spirit was guiding them or it wasn’t… If they weren’t guided, then we don’t have any gurantee that the Bible IS in fact the inspired word of God.

Why do you assume the Holy Spirit would guide them in FLAWLESSLY compiling the scriptures, and yet NOT guide them when making decisions about doctrine and practices? Especially when the traditions/doctrines/practices would EFFECT Christians more directly, considering that even WITH Scriptures, most couldn’t read, and most couldn’t get a copy of the Bible.

It was a great gift to Christianity when Sacred Scripture was finally in print and production enough for everyone to have their own copy of the Bible… But do you honestly believe the Holy Spirit wasn’t guiding the traditions and practices until 1500 years later when Luther suddenly discovered the REAL meaning of the text?

And I keep bringing up Luther, because he seems to be held right on par with the early church fathers as far as protestants are concerned.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Haven’t seen you in awhile and thought maybe you put me on your ignore list…View attachment 4477

Your fellow catholics here could sure use your help…
**
Even ChurchMilitant needs a break from you guys! Ref the OP~
To whom would the Apostles have pointed the Pope …Mary or Jesus? To Mary so she could intercede for the Pope to her son! **

 

[Leeann]

AshleyBelle:
But he didn’t correct them, or take back what he said… He asked Peter if He too would leave. And it was PETER who said "Lord where would we turn? You have the words of eternal life."

Interestingly….Peter asked the same question to Jesus as the Pope does in his prayer to Mary…except Peter answers it himself immediately, by expressing that he really knows that there is no one else to turn too…except Jesus.

So – to whom would the Apostles (Peter as an example), if he were standing by the Pope and heard the Pope ask in prayer…… “we will not know to whom to turn”… , to whom would Peter advise him to turn too……Mary….or Jesus?

 

[Leeann]

utunumsint:

Here is a quote from Paul Phillipians 3 7-

So here we have Paul who considers everything as loss compared to the unsurpased knowledge of Christ, inviting us to immitate himself (and not Christ!!), and he also invites us to immitate those who immitate him; and this even after he admits that he had not yet attained the goal. Why would he not say to immitate Christ? Why would he invite the Phillipians to look to his own human example? And if it is alright to immitate Paul, why can we not look at the lives of the saints and immitate them as well? Why can we not look to them for intercession, who are mature in the spirit, who are citizens of heaven?

Yes Paul does speak about himself and is a good example, as are those who the author of Hebrews mentions with regards to having faith – Hebrews 11 –Abel,Enoch,Noah,Sarah,etc.,
They were good examples to compare themselves too, to measure themselves against.

The difference is Paul never told them to pray to/through or commune with these individuals or to any other ‘saints’ that were in heaven as a way to build up their faith or as a way to ‘tap’ into any special graces. None of the Apostles ever did. However they did exhort and point them to Jesus in times of need.

Of course Hebrews 12 mentions Jesus’ example to follow.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
But there is still a chief pastor of the universal church that Jesus and His Apostles established - it’s HIM!

itsjustdave:
I agree. Jesus is the head of the Church. However, he charged Peter to “Tend my sheep.” Only Peter was called rock (kepha) by Christ in the NT. It was upon this kepha which Christ built his Church, and gave the “keys” of the kingdom, thereby making him the chief minister among all the other ministers. That Jesus is High Priest and Head does not mean that he did not also appoint other ministers, and a chief minister and give him the keys (authority).

Only the Catholic Church continues to be faithful to the NT ecclesiology of ONE GUY appointed as chief pastor for the Church universal, just as Jesus himself established, and God intended.

By stating that the Catholic church “continues to be faithful to the NT ecclesiology of ONE GUY appointed as chief pastor for the Church universal” – brings to mind the verses in Matthew Chapter 23 – all the woes to the scribes and Pharisees - where Jesus speaks of “religious appearance” and how it is not enough.

– all the woes to the scribes and Pharisees -