Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[mercygate]

V 2, 3 & 4.

According to Christ, they were.

They personally make their teachings official.

In Mt 15:1:11, and Mk 7:6-13, Jesus uses the scripture to condemn the Jews “traditions.”

And uses Scripture to establish Apostolic Succession under the leadership of Peter.

 

[sandusky]

And uses Scripture to establish Apostolic Succession under the leadership of Peter.

As in a “Papacy?”

 

[mercygate]

As in a “Papacy?”

Why not? Petrine primacy is scriptural. There are three very strong passages pointing to it and several other references that gesture in that direction (such as the passage where Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat).

Nothing in scripture precludes the development of the papacy as it now stands.

Those who object to Petrine primacy have a much more difficult time demonstrating that it does NOT have a scriptural foundation than the Church as demonstrating that it does. In fact, in order to deny it, you have to torture the text.

 

[MerickOWA]

V 2, 3 & 4.

According to Christ, they were.

Christ said that the leaders didn’t follow their own teaching. Christ didn’t condemn the fact that the teaching were heavy. He condemned the fact that the leaders “will not lift a finger to move them.” Meaning that they didn’t following their own teaching as they should have.

They personally make their teachings official.

Again, all we have in this passage of the Bible is that they taught things which are to be done and obeyed but that the leaders themselves didn’t follow their own teaching.

In Mt 15:1:11, and Mk 7:6-13, Jesus uses the scripture to condemn the Jews “traditions.”

If Jesus was condemning all, shouldn’t Jesus have condemned the “chair of moses” too? Wouldn’t that be contradictory to his statement in Matthew 23.

Jesus didn’t condemn “the chair of moses” because this tradition was not contrary to God’s law, even though it was not in the Scriptures.

How then can you say that we should test everything against the Bible and reject what is not found in the Bible. There is proof that even Jesus didn’t reject everything just because it was not found in the Bible. He rejected things that contradicted the Bible.

 

[sandusky]

Christ said that the leaders didn’t follow their own teaching. Christ didn’t condemn the fact that the teaching were heavy. He condemned the fact that the leaders “will not lift a finger to move them.” Meaning that they didn’t following their own teaching as they should have.

Again, all we have in this passage of the Bible is that they taught things which are to be done and obeyed but that the leaders themselves didn’t follow their own teaching.

If Jesus was condemning all, shouldn’t Jesus have condemned the “chair of moses” too? Wouldn’t that be contradictory to his statement in Matthew 23.

Jesus didn’t condemn “the chair of moses” because this tradition was not contrary to God’s law, even though it was not in the Scriptures.

How then can you say that we should test everything against the Bible and reject what is not found in the Bible. There is proof that even Jesus didn’t reject everything just because it was not found in the Bible. He rejected things that contradicted the Bible.

I believe I answered this on this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=276435&page=37

Check it out, and we’ll keep it over there.

 

[sandusky]

Why not? Petrine primacy is scriptural. There are three very strong passages pointing to it and several other references that gesture in that direction (such as the passage where Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat).

Nothing in scripture precludes the development of the papacy as it now stands.

Those who object to Petrine primacy have a much more difficult time demonstrating that it does NOT have a scriptural foundation than the Church as demonstrating that it does. In fact, in order to deny it, you have to torture the text.

We all know what verses the CC uses to make her case for the papacy. We also know that there’s disagreement and denial regarding the papcay.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

the OP~
To whom would the Apostles have pointed the Pope …Mary or Jesus? To Mary so she could intercede for the Pope to her son!

"JustAsking4The100thTime:

I am surprised you would agree with this!

JustAsking4The100thTime:

i was referring to “Even ChurchMilitant needs a break from you guys! Ref the OP~”

Yea guan, I thought that we finally got through to them. HAHAHAHA how dumb could I be? **I should convert if I am that easily fooled! **
freesmileys.org/smileys/shocked016.gif

 

[Realcatholicgk]

MerickOWA and sandusky.

AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE! BOTH OF YOU ARE:

freesmileys.org/smileys/forum/offtopic.gif

Why not share telephone numbers and call each other to argue, It shouldn’t carry across threads!

freesmileys.org/smileys/shocked015.gif

OP: Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?

Mary of course!

 

[justasking4]

Yea guan, I thought that we finally got through to them. HAHAHAHA how dumb could I be? **I should convert if I am that easily fooled! **
freesmileys.org/smileys/shocked016.gif

There is one way to admit your right about this. I have a policy that on a person’ person birthday i will admit you are right for a day. If today is your birthday i’ll pretend i’m converted for one day…

View attachment 4482

 

[Leeann]

To guanophore:

Utunumsint #482
So here we have Paul who considers everything as loss compared to the unsurpased knowledge of Christ, inviting us to immitate himself (and not Christ!!), and he also invites us to immitate those who immitate him; and this even after he admits that he had not yet attained the goal. Why would he not say to immitate Christ? Why would he invite the Phillipians to look to his own human example? And if it is alright to immitate Paul, why can we not look at the lives of the saints and immitate them as well? Why can we not look to them for intercession, who are mature in the spirit, who are citizens of heaven?

God bless,
Ut
I just wanted to complete this thought. For me immitation is a form of veneration. For me the cult of the saints is a cult of immitation. We try to tap into the special way in which God’s grace has transformed the life of particular individuals in various points in time. We commune with them because we believe they are part of the body of Christ and through Christ they can interceed for us, both to help us come closer to Christ and also to help us in our temporal needs. I consider the saints as friends in Christ, whom I can admire and immitate.

**Originally Posted in response to Ut by Leeann **

*Yes Paul does speak about himself and is a good example, as are those who the author of Hebrews mentions with regards to having faith – Hebrews 11 –Abel,Enoch,Noah,Sarah,etc.,
They were good examples to compare themselves too, to measure themselves against.

The difference is Paul never told them to pray to/through or commune* with these individuals or to any other ‘saints’ that were in heaven as a way to build up their faith or as a way to ‘tap’ into any special graces.
None of the Apostles ever did.
However they did exhort and point them to Jesus in times of need.

Of course Hebrews 12 mentions Jesus’ example to follow.

guanophore:
You are making a distinction that does not exist. Paul is not separated from all those he names in ch. 11 as examples in the faith, or from Christ, whom he strives to emulate.

Nobody says he is, as you will see from the response to utunumsint’s posting – I am distinguishing between what Paul actually “did” – using himself and those others as examples for us to imitate. And answering utunumsint’s question: “ Why can we not look to them for intercession, who are mature in the spirit, who are citizens of heaven?”

Paul at no time instructed the early believers to “pray to/through” those, but to regard their lives and try to imitate them. No mention of “intercession”, etc.

guanophore:
Paul would point someone no where else but Christ, just as does Mary, and all the Apostles, prophets, and saints. Their will is completely conformed to that of their Lord, and their ministry completely aligned with His. Mary eternally says “do whatever He tells you”, so turning to her results in obedience to Christ.It is the divinding and “replacing” that gets you off track with a prayer like this. In your mind, somehow, those who have been eternally joined with the Lamb can somehow be divided from Him, and this is not the case.

While we are joined in spirit with Him there is a distinction which places Him above us all and even those that are there now with Him:

Philippians 2: 5 – 11

5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.
8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.
9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

 

[Leeann]

To guanophore:

itsjustdave:
I agree. Jesus is the head of the Church. However, he charged Peter to “Tend my sheep.” Only Peter was called rock (kepha) by Christ in the NT. It was upon this kepha which Christ built his Church, and gave the “keys” of the kingdom, thereby making him the chief minister among all the other ministers. That Jesus is High Priest and Head does not mean that he did not also appoint other ministers, and a chief minister and give him the keys (authority).

Only the Catholic Church continues to be faithful to the NT ecclesiology of ONE GUY appointed as chief pastor for the Church universal, just as Jesus himself established, and God intended.

Originally Posted in response to itsjustdave by Leeann
By stating that the Catholic church “*continues to be faithful to the NT ecclesiology of ONE GUY appointed as chief pastor for the Church universal” *– brings to mind the verses in Matthew Chapter 23 – all the woes to the scribes and Pharisees - where Jesus speaks of “religious appearance” and how it is not enough.

guanophore:
You will have to help me with this, because I am not making the connection. Jesus took great care to single Peter out, and restore him from his trifold denial, then give him a unique mission and gift. I don’t see that Peter was at all concerned about appearance.

I think that Peter carries the gift which was entrusted to him by Christ with great humility.

I totally agree that Peter was not at all concerned about appearance,as were none of the other Apostles at that time as well, or any of the other disciples that the Lord sent out when they were establishing all the churches under the Apostles’ authority.

In my response above to itsjustdave, I was referring specifically to the last sentence, where he states: “Only the Catholic Church continues to be faithful to the NT ecclesiology of ONE GUY appointed as chief pastor for the Church universal, just as Jesus himself established, and God intended.”

As you know I don’t believe that the Catholic Church of today or even over the centuries is the same in anyway as to the church that the Apostles established - about the only thing that they do have is “the ONE GUY appointed as chief pastor” thing.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Interestingly….Peter asked the same question to Jesus as the Pope does in his prayer to Mary…except Peter answers it himself immediately, by expressing that he really knows that there is no one else to turn too…except Jesus.

So – to whom would the Apostles (Peter as an example), if he were standing by the Pope and heard the Pope ask in prayer…… “we will not know to whom to turn”… , to whom would Peter advise him to turn too……Mary….or Jesus?

onenow1:
Hi, Leann;Maybe this will point you to Mary as Jesus pointed John to Mary.

John 19:
25 So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag’dalene.
26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

Hi onenow1

Thanks for posting.

I believe at some point earlier in this thread these verses have come up in discussion, the result being that my understanding is different to the Catholic Church’s significance allotted to these verses. Jesus was trusting John to take care of His mother and treat her as his own and vice versa.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Hi onenow1

Thanks for posting.

I believe at some point earlier in this thread these verses have come up in discussion, the result being that my understanding is different to the Catholic Church’s significance allotted to these verses. Jesus was trusting John to take care of His mother and treat her as his own and vice versa.

So how do we know which interpretation is the right one?

 

[mercygate]

We all know what verses the CC uses to make her case for the papacy. We also know that there’s disagreement and denial regarding the papcay.

So? Disagreement and denial take nothing from the strength of the position.

 

[Leeann]

So how do we know which interpretation is the right one?

Well, for me personally, I’ve been trusting and believing in the Lord for a long time now and always go humbly in prayer in His name, asking that God’s truth will be revealed to me by the leading of the Holy Spirit - even if it is something that I may not want to know - (He knows me better than I do…) - and I ask that He enable me to apply it to my life according to His Will.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Well, for me personally, I’ve been trusting and believing in the Lord for a long time now and always go humbly in prayer in His name, asking that God’s truth will be revealed to me by the leading of the Holy Spirit - even if it is something that I may not want to know - (He knows me better than I do…) - and I ask that He enable me to apply it to my life according to His Will.

That’s a beautiful answer, and something we should all strive to do

But I also, pray and trust in the Lord that He will reveal His truth to me by His leading.. And that is precisely how He led me into the Catholic church:)

And the more I pray, the more alive that particular passage of scripture becomes to me. I see my Lord, suffering, crucified. And I see the great love in His eyes. I feel immensely with all my being that when he “turns to the disciple whom He loved” that He is turning to me… to all of us for whom he bleeds, suffers, cruicifed to save. And I see Him crying out with all His heart as He gives me His mother… to be MY mother. The woman whom he loved, He gives to me, his last request being that I accept her as my own mother.

 The Holy Spirit cannot guide us both into "two versions" of the truth. Truth is not something that changes because somebody else feels "differently" in their heart.

So… how do we know which interpretation to believe?

 

[Leeann]

That’s a beautiful answer, and something we should all strive to do

But I also, pray and trust in the Lord that He will reveal His truth to me by His leading.. And that is precisely how He led me into the Catholic church:)

And the more I pray, the more alive that particular passage of scripture becomes to me. I see my Lord, suffering, crucified. And I see the great love in His eyes. I feel immensely with all my being that when he “turns to the disciple whom He loved” that He is turning to me… to all of us for whom he bleeds, suffers, cruicifed to save. And I see Him crying out with all His heart as He gives me His mother… to be MY mother. The woman whom he loved, He gives to me, his last request being that I accept her as my own mother.

 The Holy Spirit cannot guide us both into "two versions" of the truth. Truth is not something that changes because somebody else feels "differently" in their heart.

So… how do we know which interpretation to believe?

Well - I answered your question the best I could, with what I know to be true and of God. So I guess you’ll just have to go to God and ask Him for peace and assurance that you’ve got it right.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Well - I answered your question the best I could, with what I know to be true and of God. So I guess you’ll just have to go to God and ask Him for peace and assurance that you’ve got it right.

I have found that peace, Leeann.....but it seems like you won't accept the reason.

I didn’t find peace because of my own interpretation. I found peace because God brought me to the one church with the authority of Christ Himself. I found peace because I accepted, humbly, to be a part of His church. And I chose to obediantly, faithfull, and lovingly embrace the Body of Christ. To put HIS truth above my own understanding

I found that I “do not need a church that’s right when I am right… But a church that’s right when I am wrong.”(C. Newman)

And I accepted His mother as My mother. I can say with confidence that I would lovingly turn to mary. And the pope could lovingly turn to Mary. Because loving her has drawn me closer to the heart of Jesus
So I ask you.. .Why shouldn't the apostles point to Mary?

 

[Leeann]

I have found that peace, Leeann…but it seems like you won’t accept the reason.

I didn’t find peace because of my own interpretation. I found peace because God brought me to the one church with the authority of Christ Himself. I found peace because I accepted, humbly, to be a part of His church. And I chose to obediantly, faithfull, and lovingly embrace the Body of Christ. To put HIS truth above my own understanding

I found that I “do not need a church that’s right when I am right… But a church that’s right when I am wrong.”(C. Newman)

And I accepted His mother as My mother. I can say with confidence that I would lovingly turn to mary. And the pope could lovingly turn to Mary. Because loving her has drawn me closer to the heart of Jesus

So I ask you.. .Why shouldn't the apostles point to Mary?

I believe this has been posted a few times, but - because they never preached or taught the early Christians to do so - even when she was still alive - or to turn to anyone else in heaven in prayer - and Jesus never taught this either. The Apostles always directed them to go to/through Jesus. This is throughout their gospel message and in the gospel books/epistles.

 

[AshleyBelle]

I believe this has been posted a few times, but - because they never preached or taught the early Christians to do so - even when she was still alive - or to turn to anyone else in heaven in prayer - and Jesus never taught this either. The Apostles always directed them to go to/through Jesus. This is throughout their gospel message and in the gospel books/epistles.

The problem is that you don't believe they taught this, but I believe they do.

You turn to yourself and your view of the scriptures… (though with good intention, believing you are only turning to God.)

I turn to the church which I believe was instituted by Christ…so that while I may read the scriptures and pray for the Holy Spirit to lead me…I will not come up with a false interpretation.

Do you think God wants us to read the same scriptures and believe two different things?