Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

(cont’d)

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Of course, but as you know, it doesn’t necessarily always follow that precept.

In this particular case that we were discussing - Peter immediately pointed everyone to JESUS. He didn’t say to them – “I’m glad you’re all here, gathered at the “church” or mention to them that they had come to the “church” – Peter stood up and pointed them to JESUS.

guanophore:

There is no distinction between Jesus and the Church. As many as were baptized into the Church were baptized into Christ.

How about this – as many as were baptized into CHRIST – were then a part of His Body of believers – His church?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Hi mercygate

What a beautiful example that is! Of course it was Christ Himself there with Paul – and the deed was done right there and then as far as Paul was concerned – no one had to point Paul to Jesus – He did it Himself – then the “church” was pointed too.

guanophore:
“The deed”?

Saul’s (Paul’s)- “sudden” realization of who Jesus was. (wouldn’t that be something!)

guanophore:
Actually, the Church did point Saul to Jesus. If he had not been pursuing the Church with such animosity and zeal, then he never would have been on the road to Damascus!

**It was the ongoing life of Christ **in His disciples that Saul was trying to exterminate.

So actually it *was *CHRIST that was indeed behind it all!

 

[onenow1]

onenow1:
What do you think Leeann, since St. Paul is not involved in this mass conversion of folks from the beginning ?

I have no idea what this comment means – could you please explain it more or expand on it for me please. Thanks.

Quote=onenow1: I’ll try Leeann.It was the Church under the leadership of St.Peter not Paul so, Pentecost is, if not explicit implicit explanation of these verses Leeann. Matthew 16​

16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

St.Paul was not the rock,that the Holy Spirit gave power to on Pentecost Leeann; Damascus hasn’t happened yet.
The pillar and fondation of truth Leann is the Church and not the bible. That’s the simple truth of Matthews verses.

Anyway these are my thoughts Leann, that I believe coincide with what the church teaches. There are others here who have explained this quite well and are more qualified then I.

Peace, onenow1opcorn:

 

[sandusky]

The pillar and fondation of truth Leann is the Church and not the bible.

The pillar and foundation hold up the truth, and the truth is found in the scripture. :yup:

 

[AshleyBelle]

The pillar and foundation hold up the truth, and the truth is found in the scripture. :yup:

Last I checked, “hold up” the truth was not in my Bible. Are you adding to the word of God? Just like you added “alone” to everything that is convenient for you?

My Bible clearly says “The church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

 

[ron77nyc]

The church had a beginning and it will have an end when its job is done. Jesus was and always will be and His word will never pass away so how could they be the same?

 

[AshleyBelle]

The church had a beginning and it will have an end when its job is done. Jesus was and always will be and His word will never pass away so how could they be the same?

The church won’t end at the second coming… it will be transformed Just as we will be transformed. The church’s purpose isn’t just to spread the gospel…it is also to worship and love God. There are three parts to the church; the church militant the church suffering, and the church triumphant. In the end, there will be no need for the church militant or the church suffering, because we will all be in the church triumphant, transformed.
The church has always been associated as the "body of Christ." And He is at the head. Just as Christ will never pass away, neither will His body, the church.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Ephesians 1: 13 -22

13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise,
14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, hearing of your faith that is in the Lord Jesus, and of your love towards all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making commemoration of you in my prayers,
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and of revelation, in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your heart enlightened, that you may know what the hope is of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power towards us, who believe according to the operation of the might of his power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, raising him up from the dead, and setting him on his right hand in the heavenly places.
21 Above all principality, and power, and virtue, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.
22 And he hath subjected all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church,
23 Which is his body, and the fulness of him who is filled all in all.

---

Leeann…you posted this passage to somehow refute the idea of Christ founding a church… But the very same passage supports the church.
I think you seem to be assuming Catholics feel “the church” is a building… But it is not! The Church is the Body of Christ. Christ is the HEAD of the church! The Church is that invisible connection between the faithful, that unites us in truth. It is also the visible body of Christ, meaning there should be both a physical and invisible UNITY of truth.

This is not unlike human bodies. We have a visible body, and we have an invisible soul. God is pretty clever about giving us physical paralelles to His truth like that

The Pope is not the Head of the church. He is a servant… Christ is referred to in scripture as “the Door to heaven.” It is not a coincidence that He then gave Peter the KEYS to the kingdom of heaven. You might say that the pope is simply the physical representation of the spiritual concept. He is the “next in charge” while the King is away… He’s not the leader of the Kingdom, but He is responsible for representing what the King expects of His people while He is away.

Our Lord knew what He was doing when He gave us a church with an authority on earth with the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth

 

[guanophore]

Exactly.How do you know that the Catholic Church’s authority is from God and not self appointed? Who tells you this? The Catholic Church itself?

I think this is a fair question, and I want to commend you for asking it, instead of using your previous formula of accusing Catholics of this. I have noted a distinct lack of sarcasm and snideness in your more recent posts, and it is quite refreshing!

Yes, the Church does teach this, but it did not originate with the Church, but Jesus. Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles, and they to their successors. Well, “give” is probably not the best word - shared rather. I don’t see how anyone can say that any of the Apostles were “self appointed”, or upon reading the Scriptural evidence, that Jesus was not the One who empowered and commissioned them.

Leeann Post 557

*But they do mention how every true and faithful believer is in Jesus, is sealed by the Holy Spirit…and if this be true… then when we humbly make a request…with the Spirit making intercession for us…we can believe that it will be answered according to His Will. *

*If that request is to be able to understand the bible and test the teachings from any priest/pastor/minister here on earth *against it…I believe He will honour that request.

Yes.

And since we are all fallible, human beings, this of course has to be taken into consideration for all churches that claim to have any authority. As individuals, living and believing and trusting in Jesus, the final authority rests in Him and His promises to us that He will hear our prayers and answer them according to His Will. I believe He keeps His promises.

Yes. We believe it was in keeping His very great and precious promises that the charism of infallibility exists. When He told the Apostles that He would lead them into all truth, we believe He meant it. It was a promise made to the Church, though, not the individuals. Those who remain in unity with His Teachings will be protected by the gift.

Well, for me personally, I’ve been trusting and believing in the Lord for a long time now and always go humbly in prayer in His name, asking that God’s truth will be revealed to me by the leading of the Holy Spirit - even if it is something that I may not want to know - (He knows me better than I do…) - and I ask that He enable me to apply it to my life according to His Will.

Your Christ centered passion is commendable. Had you considered that coming to CAF was an answer to prayer?

Well – so far He hasn’t let me down and has at times done more than abundantly I could ever imagine possible – spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically – He’s my all in all.

And may He continue to manifest Himself most powerfully in your life!

Beautiful verse above!

Ephesians 1: 13 -22
21 Above all principality, and power, and virtue, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.
22 And he hath subjected all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church,
23 Which is his body, and the fulness of him who is filled all in all.

Just wanted to make sure you noticed here that the Church, which is His body, is the fullness of Him who is filled all in all.

 

[guanophore]

The pillar and foundation hold up the truth, and the truth is found in the scripture. :yup:

Yes indeed, the Truth is found in the Scripture. It is found there because Jesus taught it to the Church, and the Church committed part of what He taught to writing. It would be an error to think that the Truth Jesus taught them “disappeared” after some of it was written.

The church had a beginning and it will have an end when its job is done. Jesus was and always will be and His word will never pass away so how could they be the same?

Are you asking how Jesus and the Church can be the same?

 

[guanophore]

Not sure if you’re referring to no distinction between Jesus and the church or Jesus and Mary - if it is the latter there is a distinction. See the scripture I posted to merickOWA: (portion here Eph Ch1)

Good point. No, Mary, the saints, Apostles, and Church all point us to Jesus. Jesus makes no distinction between Himself and His Bride:

22 And he hath subjected all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church,
23 Which is his body, and the fulness of him who is filled all in all.

Specifically Verse 22, where the Church is described as His Body, and the fulness of Him who is filled all in all.
Leeann;4394397:

Oh brother guanophore – are you deliberately mis-reading the context?

Gosh, I hope not! However, I do admit that I have some skewed perceptions.

The people Peter preached Jesus too – *were not yet *

joined to either Christ or the church when he preached to them. Afterwards – when they believed and were baptized in the name of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit – they were then a part of His Body – His church.

Yes, we are in agreeement. The Catholic Church teaches that her birthday occurred on Pentecost, when the Spirit fell. The fledgling church, of 120 or so, then went out to the people, and began to preach. Those who listened were those who “came to the church” to hear the Gospel.

The Catholic Church as we know it today and as it has developed over the centuries is nothing like the church that was present on and after the day of Pentecost-

You keep saying that, and I keep being mystified about what you mean…

It was my study of history that made me realize it was the same Church!
Leeann;4394397:

that you state “these elements were all present” really helps my point here – what about the “Marian Theology” and the “Marian Dogmas” that have been developed and integrated into the gospel message that was originally preached and taught for the salvation of all mankind –

I think this would make better sense when you have studied the early heresies. The Marian Dogmas were developed “backwards” from the development of the doctrines about Jesus. These had to be developed and clarified to address the Gnostic and Arian heresies that were not present in the NT times.

whereby now you yourself have come to the conclusion that there is no “separation” of Mary and Jesus – they are “inseparable” – when scripture itself makes a clear distinction and that is what was originally taught. See Ephesians verses again.

To clarify, my post above was ambiguous. I meant that Jesus is inseparable from His Church. However, Mary and the saints have the prayer of Paul in Eph. fulfilled in themselves. They always point to Christ, and cannot be separated from Him because they are freed from sin, their salvation is completed, and their wills have been perfectly conformed to His. This is God’s desire for all of us.

Oh! Sorry :blush:  – I know it gets difficult at times quoting and posting – I’m still not good at it myself.

I sense that you have a meticulous nature, and I am sure you will make sure that I do not leave out anything salient!

How about this – as many as were baptized into CHRIST

– were then a part of His Body of believers – His church?

well, yes…
Help me if I am missing something. I don’t see any difference.

So actually it *was *

CHRIST that was indeed behind it all!

Yes. We see Him manifesting Himself to the world through His Body.

 

[ron77nyc]

Getting back to the subject of the thread ------- the Pope’s words are very confusing “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.” I would have felt much better if he prayed to the Father. Jesus always prayed to the Father and taught that to his disciples.

 

[Leeann]

**onenow1: **
What do you think Leeann, since St. Paul is not involved in this mass conversion of folks from the beginning ?

Leeann
I have no idea what this comment means – could you please explain it more or expand on it for me please. Thanks.

onenow1:

I’ll try Leeann.It was the Church under the leadership of St.Peter not Paul so, Pentecost is, if not explicit implicit explanation of these verses Leeann. Matthew 16​

16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

St.Paul was not the rock, that the Holy Spirit gave power to on Pentecost Leeann; Damascus hasn’t happened yet.
The pillar and fondation of truth Leann is the Church and not the bible. That’s the simple truth of Matthews verses.

Anyway these are my thoughts Leann, that I believe coincide with what the church teaches. There are others here who have explained this quite well and are more qualified then I.

Thank you for clarifying this for me - I’m still a bit confused as to the direction it’s going in…there was no mention of Paul being considered what you refer to as “the rock” in any of my postings….???..Paul was brought into the dialogue by:

Post # 617 mercygate:
Even Our Lord points people “to the Church.” When He appears to Paul on the road to Damascus, he sends him straight to Ananias to be baptized and to receive his sight and to receive the Holy Spirit.

And my response was to that posting was:

Leeann:
“What a beautiful example that is! Of course it was Christ Himself there with Paul – and the deed was done right there and then as far as Paul was concerned – no one had to point Paul to Jesus – He did it Himself – then the “church” was pointed too.”

How in any way whatsoever has either of those postings got to do with what you’ve have posted ?

But thank you for taking the time to post.

 

[Leeann]

AshlyBelle:
Leeann…you posted this passage to somehow refute the idea of Christ founding a church… But the very same passage supports the church.

I feel like I’ve entered the “Twilight Zone”……………

I posted those verses “twice” – once in Post # 631 – in response to merickOWA’s posting of Proverbs – “Trust in the Lord with all your heart. And do not lean on your own understanding.”
I “highlighted” the verses that I feel go along with the “trusting” part – especially verses 17 and 18.

Again in Post # 634 – in response to guanophore’s posting – where I was showing that there is a distinction between Jesus and Mary – highlighted verse 21.

How do you get from those postings of these verses that I was “somehow refuting the idea of Christ founding a church”…???

 

[guanophore]

Getting back to the subject of the thread ------- the Pope’s words are very confusing “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.” I would have felt much better if he prayed to the Father. Jesus always prayed to the Father and taught that to his disciples.

If it is any consolation, I feel the same way!

 

[sandusky]

Last I checked, “hold up” the truth was not in my Bible. Are you adding to the word of God? Just like you added “alone” to everything that is convenient for you?

My Bible clearly says “The church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

You seem so angry.

What do pillars, and supports do, Ashley?

 

[eva6206213]

i think the answer is no~

 

[guanophore]

i think the answer is no~

You can’t answer an either/or question that way!

 

[Protestant101]

Falsehood #1

Praying to Mary IS praying to Jesus. And praying to Jesus IS praying to Mary. Mary only holds any significance or power BECAUSE she is the Mother of God, therefore her position as Queen of Heaven is dependant upon Jesus’ position as God in the Flesh and King of Heaven.

Mary is not Jesus. It is that simple. We pray to Jesus, and we are not praying to Mary at all, because they are two different beings. I look to Jesus direct, never Mary. Christians should not delude themselves in thinking they pray to Mary, she is dead. Only Jesus is alive.

It’s also pretty mixed up to say 1) that Jesus is “King of Heaven,” and 2) Mary is “Queen of Heaven,” for this gives the far out message that mother and son are married and also husband and wife. The closer I look at the Marian doctrines, the whackier they get.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Exactly.How do you know that the Catholic Church’s authority is from God and not self appointed? Who tells you this? The Catholic Church itself?

guanophore:
Yes, the Church does teach this, but it did not originate with the Church, but Jesus. Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles, and they to their successors. Well, “give” is probably not the best word - shared rather. I don’t see how anyone can say that any of the Apostles were “self appointed”, or upon reading the Scriptural evidence, that Jesus was not the One who empowered and commissioned them.

I know that Jesus gave authority to the Apostles to establish *His *church, I was asking how you know that the Catholic Church’s authority is from God.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
And since we are all fallible, human beings, this of course has to be taken into consideration for all churches that claim to have any authority. As individuals, living and believing and trusting in Jesus, the final authority rests in Him and His promises to us that He will hear our prayers and answer them according to His Will. I believe He keeps His promises.

guanophore:
Yes. We believe it was in keeping His very great and precious promises that the charism of infallibility exists. When He told the Apostles that He would lead them into all truth, we believe He meant it. It was a promise made to the Church, though, not the individuals.

I’m sorry, I disagree.
While it was indeed a promise made to His Apostles with regards to His commission when He sent them out to establish His church…it is also something that each individual, by being in communion with Him, by being “in” Him, as He is in the Father and true and faithful believers are joined in them as one….(John 17)…. A personal relationship where His truth is “there”, because He is “there”.

guanophore:
Those who remain in unity with His Teachings will be protected by the gift.

I’m assuming you mean the Catholic Church is in unity with His teachings and since you are aware that I don’t believe the Catholic Church of today, is the same as
the church His Apostles established, my question remains…then how can the Catholic Church
claim ‘authority’ when it hasn’t remained in unity with His teachings?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Well, for me personally, I’ve been trusting and believing in the Lord for a long time now and always go humbly in prayer in His name, asking that God’s truth will be revealed to me by the leading of the Holy Spirit - even if it is something that I may not want to know - (He knows me better than I do…) - and I ask that He enable me to apply it to my life according to His Will.

guanophore:
Had you considered that coming to CAF was an answer to prayer?

He knew my spirit was burdened for my friends (you know the story) and I asked for some way of understanding what had happened….or is this the “norm”.

The different responses that posters have offered – not just in this thread – but the others I stumbled around in - shows that there are various “levels” or “depths” …of adoration/worship/veneration/honor afforded to Mary by each individual and in some cases various understandings/interpretations of the actual teachings or the dogmas themselves.

I’ve learned that not all are as extreme to the point of being “exclusively” focused on Mary alone ….as are my friends.

My own focus has been directed more to the teaching and promulgation of this theology itself.

Hence the “thread question” – with regards to the Pope’s prayer – to/through – Mary.

Ephesians 1: 13 -22

21 Above all principality, and power, and virtue, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.
22 **And he hath subjected all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church, **
23 **Which is his body, and the fulness of him who is filled all in all. **

guanophore:
Just wanted to make sure you noticed here that the Church, which is His body, is the fullness of Him who is filled all in all.

Oh yes…He is head over all the church (universal) – His body, of all true and faithful believers, wherever they may worship……not necessarily the Catholic church. __________________

 

[Leeann]

Getting back to the subject of the thread ------- the Pope’s words are very confusing “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.” I would have felt much better if he prayed to the Father. Jesus always prayed to the Father and taught that to his disciples.

For what it’s worth…I agree!