Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[justasking4]

I will take Christ’s words, and the interpretation handed down through the apostles of His words over Ja4’s interpretation

Where has the church infallilby interpreted this passage to mean what you claim it does?

 

[sandusky]

We can pray to Mary because we are praying through her son, always

You pray to Mary through her Son?

I thought the CC taught it the other way 'round—you pray to the Son through Mary?

 

[AshleyBelle]

You pray to Mary through her Son?

I thought the CC taught it the other way 'round—you pray to the Son through Mary?

Through her son, we are are all joined in the communion of Saints. You knew exactly what I meant, and yet you still decided to twist it around and claim I’m saying something else!

Your tactics are getting old, and honestly OFFENSIVE.

We wouldn’t be able to pray to mary at all or any of the saints without Christ… We wouldnt’ be connected as the body of Christ, the communion of Saints without Christ.

So yes… I am able to pray to mary for her intercession, for her help because of Christ.

Jesus is the ONLY Mediator…

If you want to take my words and try to make them mean something I didnt’ say, I really can’t take you seriously any more, and I’m wasting my time trying to dialogue with you.

Really why are you here? You obviously dont’ agree with anything we say, and you continue to try and make us believe things we dont’ believe. Are you here to learn about what the church teaches, or to teach US what YOU think it teaches?

 

[guanophore]

So to whom would the Apostles advise the Pope to turn too…Mary or Jesus?

A false distinction and separation. God joined Mary to Himself when the HS overshadowed her. From that moment He was formed in her womb, after that, suckled from her breast, slept in her lap, and to this day she has been right by His side. One who turns to Christ will find Mary there with Him, and one who turns to Mary will find her standing next to Him.

If Jesus meant that He was giving Mary to the John to mean that Mary was now to be the mother of the church then why did not John mention this in his 3 letters?

The letters were specific correspondence for specific problems, just like the other letters. None of them were intended to contain all the teachings of the Church. John references this in His Gospel and the Revelation where He writes about Mary.

I’ve also been thinking of giving this to all members on Christmas day as a gift :christmastree1:

That will be the happiest Christmas ever! Will that include your attendance at Divine Liturgy?

Its a good place to start. If we can’t find it there then we can look elsewhere.

Not really. It won’t help much if you are reading it with anti-catholic glasses.

These words were only spoken to John. Secondly, did Jesus speak anywhere else in the Gospels that Mary was to be the mother of the church?

Yes. Jesus is noted by John to have referred to his mother with the title “Woman”. She is the new Eve, the Woman He created Eve to be, but from which state she fell. Mary is blessed because she heard the Word of God, and obeyed it, unlike Eve, who was disobedient.

No doubt Jesus gave Mary to John to take care. What i dispute is the catholic interpretation that Jesus meant she was to be the mother of the church and all Christians.

That is ok. You can dispute the existence of Pluto also, because you cannot see it with your naked eye, but that will not make Pluto go away, and your dispute does not subtract from Mary’s role as mother to the Church.

Mary was given at the foot of the Cross to the Disciple whom Jesus loved. This was written by an apostle who deliberately does not identify himself as the author. We know he is the author because of sacred tradition, the same tradition that gives us to understand how the author understood the gift.

 

[guanophore]

You make another claim here that its in “Sacred Oral Tradition” or something like that. How do you know that if you have no record of it but all you do with others is to assert it without proof?

Easy! It is an article of faith. It was handed down to us from the Apostles. However, the best “record” is that which you hold in your hands and over our heads delight to thump, the New Testament. this was produced entirely from Sacred Tradition. Until you can accept that, there is very little else you will be able to grasp, I fear.

Part of the reason is that same assertions are framed in such a way as to sound like there are facts to support it and when i ask for the support for it i usually find catholics start with personal insults etc…:crutches:

No, it is just that you don’t accept the evidence that exists. That is your perogative. God created you with the freedom to deny His gospel.

Where has the church infallilby interpreted this passage to mean what you claim it does?

Why would that matter, since you reject all of the infallible proclamations, except the Bible, which you only accept because you rationalize to yourself that it is not the result of an infallible proclamation: tsktsk: .

 

[utunumsint]

This quote from Augustine in his work against Faustus pretty much encapsulates the Catholic teaching on prayers to the saints (see section 21).

newadvent.org/fathers/140620.htm

It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers. But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints’ burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to you, O Peter! or O Paul! or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. The emotion is increased by the associations of the place, and love is excited both towards those who are our examples, and towards Him by whose help we may follow such examples. We regard the martyrs with the same affectionate intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life, when we know that their hearts are prepared to endure the same suffering for the truth of the gospel. There is more devotion in our feeling towards the martyrs, because we know that their conflict is over; and we can speak with greater confidence in praise of those already victors in heaven, than of those still combating here. What is properly divine worship, which the Greeks call latria, and for which there is no word in Latin, both in doctrine and in practice, we give only to God. To this worship belongs the offering of sacrifices; as we see in the word idolatry, which means the giving of this worship to idols. Accordingly we never offer, or require any one to offer, sacrifice to a martyr, or to a holy soul, or to any angel. Any one falling into this error is instructed by doctrine, either in the way of correction or of caution. For holy beings themselves, whether saints or angels, refuse to accept what they know to be due to God alone. We see this in Paul and Barnabas, when the men of Lycaonia wished to sacrifice to them as gods, on account of the miracles they performed. They rent their clothes, and restrained the people, crying out to them, and persuading them that they were not gods. We see it also in the angels, as we read in the Apocalypse that an angel would not allow himself to be worshipped, and said to his worshipper, “I am your fellow-servant, and of your brethen.” Revelation 19:10 Those who claim this worship are proud spirits, the devil and his angels, as we see in all the temples and rites of the Gentiles. Some proud men, too, have copied their example; as is related of some kings of Babylon. Thus the holy Daniel was accused and persecuted, because when the king made a decree that no petition should be made to any god, but only to the king, he was found worshipping and praying to his own God, that is, the one true God. Daniel vi As for those who drink to excess at the feasts of the martyrs, we of course condemn their conduct; for to do so even in their own houses would be contrary to sound doctrine. But we must try to amend what is bad as well as prescribe what is good, and must of necessity bear for a time with some things that are not according to our teaching. The rules of Christian conduct are not to be taken from the indulgences of the intemperate or the infirmities of the weak. Still, even in this, the guilt of intemperance is much less than that of impiety. To sacrifice to the martyrs, even fasting, is worse than to go home intoxicated from their feast: to sacrifice to the martyrs, I say, which is a different thing from sacrificing to God in memory of the martyrs, as we do constantly, in the manner required since the revelation of the New Testament, for this belongs to the worship or latria which is due to God alone. But it is vain to try to make these heretics understand the full meaning of these words of the Psalmist: “He that offers the sacrifice of praise glorifies me, and in this way will I show him my salvation.” Before the coming of Christ, the flesh and blood of this sacrifice were foreshadowed in the animals slain; in the passion of Christ the types were fulfilled by the true sacrifice; after the ascension of Christ, this sacrifice is commemorated in the sacrament. Between the sacrifices of the Pagans and of the Hebrews there is all the difference that there is between a false imitation and a typical anticipation. We do not despise or denounce the virginity of holy women because there were vestal virgins. And, in the same way, it is no reproach to the sacrifices of our fathers that the Gentiles also had sacrifices. The difference between the Christian and vestal virginity is great, yet it consists wholly in the being to whom the vow is made and paid; and so the difference in the being to whom the sacrifices of the Pagans and Hebrews are made and offered makes a wide difference between them. In the one case they are offered to devils, who presumptuously make this claim in order to be held as gods, because sacrifice is a divine honor. In the other case they are offered to the one true God, as a type of the true sacrifice, which also was to be offered to Him in the passion of the body and blood of Christ.

God bless,
Ut

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4387892]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I’ve also been thinking of giving this to all members on Christmas day as a gift.:christmastree1:

guanophore
That will be the happiest Christmas ever! Will that include your attendance at Divine Liturgy?

You know i’m here to make catholics happy… If you could get Church Miltant to do this on the forum that would help

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Through her son, we are are all joined in the communion of Saints. You knew exactly what I meant, and yet you still decided to twist it around and claim I’m saying something else!

Your tactics are getting old, and honestly OFFENSIVE.

Give her a break, she is only playing. She can’t be serious with some of the statements she makes!

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We wouldn’t be able to pray to mary at all or any of the saints without Christ… We wouldnt’ be connected as the body of Christ, the communion of Saints without Christ.

That is so true. He provides the connecting grace needed to make us one body one Faith!

So yes… I am able to pray to mary for her intercession, for her help because of Christ.

Jesus is the ONLY Mediator…

She knows that and she knows we believe that also!

If you want to take my words and try to make them mean something I didnt’ say, I really can’t take you seriously any more, and I’m wasting my time trying to dialogue with you.

**OMG you were taking her seriously? Didn’t you know she was playing with you all the time? You should dialog with her to entertain yourself or learn from her mistakes that God won’t save everyone, even though he wants to. **

Really why are you here? You obviously dont’ agree with anything we say, and you continue to try and make us believe things we dont’ believe.

**That is why she is here! I think JA4 and she gets “paid” to do this. Maybe we sould ask the CC to pay us a little something. We really do deserve it. At least we tell the Protestants the truth! **

Are you here to learn about what the church teaches, or to teach US what YOU think it teaches?

Maybe she is here as part of her community service? Some judges are making them do things like that now. maybe her time is up soon?
freesmileys.org/smileys/bounce017.giffreesmileys.org/smileys/bounce017.giffreesmileys.org/smileys/bounce017.gif

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[sandusky]

AshleyBelle:

Through her son, we are are all joined in the communion of Saints. You knew exactly what I meant, and yet you still decided to twist it around and claim I’m saying something else!

I’ve noticed that when you make a gaff such as you did, you can’t just say, ”I made a mistake.”

AshleyBelle:

Your tactics are getting old, and honestly OFFENSIVE.

Hey, you just made a mistake, that’s all, just say it.

AshleyBelle:

We wouldn’t be able to pray to mary at all or any of the saints without Christ… We wouldnt’ be connected as the body of Christ, the communion of Saints without Christ.

So yes… I am able to pray to mary for her intercession, for her help because of Christ.

Jesus is the ONLY Mediator…

He is the only mediator in Scripture, but in your faith, He also has a co-mediator—Mary—right?

AshleyBelle:

If you want to take my words and try to make them mean something I didnt’ say, I really can’t take you seriously any more, and I’m wasting my time trying to dialogue with you.

C’mon, Ashley, you just made a mistake. You lose nothing by simply saying, ”Hey, I made a mistake.”

AshleyBelle:

Really why are you here? You obviously dont’ agree with anything we say, and you continue to try and make us believe things we dont’ believe. Are you here to learn about what the church teaches, or to teach US what YOU think it teaches?

Sigh…

 

[AshleyBelle]

I’ve noticed that when you make a gaff such as you did, you can’t just say, ”I made a mistake.”

Hey, you just made a mistake, that’s all, just say it.

He is the only mediator in Scripture, but in your faith, He also has a co-mediator—Mary—right?

C’mon, Ashley, you just made a mistake. You lose nothing by simply saying, ”Hey, I made a mistake.”

Sigh…

My mistake was in hoping you were here for true ecumenical reasons:(

 

[sandusky]

My mistake was in hoping you were here for true ecumenical reasons

Oh, Ashley.

 

[Leeann]

This quote from Augustine in his work against Faustus pretty much encapsulates the Catholic teaching on prayers to the saints (see section 21).

newadvent.org/fathers/140620.htm

God bless,
Ut

Thank you for taking the time to post this Ut.

 

[Leeann]

Leean…we’ve answered your question I’m not sure why you continue to ask. Are you hoping that maybe some catholic here isn’t as “lost” as you seem to think the rest of us are?

It’s the “thread topic”!!!

 

[justasking4]

Hey, they gotta get their practice in apologetics in too y’know. They’re gonna encounter all this jive on their own from time to time and in the long run I’m glad they faced this stuff here because all JA4 & sandusky and Leeann do is sharpen their skills, so that ultimately, their arguments here work against their own cause.

That’s how it worked with me!
Manny does just fine. He’s come a VERY LONG way since he first got on CAF and seems to improve noticeably every time I see one of his posts. He also knows that if he needs me, I’ve got his back in a flash, just as I do yours.
Don’t think I would’ve gone there though. These folks are not swine…they’re people just like us…

If and when they turn on me and try to tear me, then I’ll deal with 'em and say, http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/thbye.gif

That’s great picture (i could sure use it)… one picture is worth a thousand words or something like that…

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
So to whom would the Apostles point the Pope too…Mary…or Jesus?

mercygate:
After the Ascension, they point people to the Church. Where does the Holy Spirit first descend in power on the disciplies: when they are together, of one mind, in constant prayer WITH Mary . . .

Just as prior to the day of Pentecost - when Jesus actually ascended into heaven…there is no record of Mary being present at that momentous event…He spoke to the Apostles…they returned to the place they were staying and remained in one accord there…with the women and Mary His mother and His brethren.

Acts 1 (DouayRheims online)

9 And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they were beholding him going up to heaven, behold two men stood by them in white garments.
**11 **Who also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand you looking up to heaven? This Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, as you have seen him going into heaven. 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount that is called Olivet, which is nigh Jerusalem, within a sabbath day’s journey. 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James. 14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Many days passed before the day of Pentecost

Douay Rheims bible (online)

• Subheading: The disciples receive the Holy Ghost. Peter’s sermon to the people. The piety of the first converts. *

Acts 2

**1 **And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place: **2 **And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them: 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.

These verses in no way record that Mary was with the Apostles when they were all together in one place on the day of Pentecost.She may have been…and most likely was…along with the other women and brethren…but there is no significance given to her being present or not.

And immediately, (Acts 2: 14 - 38 ) Peter stands up to preach/teach and he points the people that have assembled in wonder to JESUS - not the church.

 

[mercygate]

Just as prior to the day of Pentecost - when Jesus actually ascended into heaven…there is no record of Mary being present at that momentous event…He spoke to the Apostles…they returned to the place they were staying and remained in one accord there…with the women and Mary His mother and His brethren.

Acts 1 (DouayRheims online)

9 And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they were beholding him going up to heaven, behold two men stood by them in white garments.
**11 **Who also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand you looking up to heaven? This Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, as you have seen him going into heaven. 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount that is called Olivet, which is nigh Jerusalem, within a sabbath day’s journey. 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James. 14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Many days passed before the day of Pentecost

Douay Rheims bible (online)

Subheading: The disciples receive the Holy Ghost. Peter’s sermon to the people. The piety of the first converts.

Acts 2

**1 **And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place: **2 **And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them: 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.

**These verses in no way record that Mary was with the Apostles when they were all together in one place on the day of Pentecost.**She may have been…and most likely was…along with the other women and brethren…but there is no significance given to her being present or not.

And immediately, (Acts 2: 14 - 38 ) Peter stands up to preach/teach and he points the people that have assembled in wonder to JESUS - not the church.

Since the list of the disciples is given “with Mary . . .” and the reference follows “when they were all together,” it points strongly to Mary’s presence. I have never seen the passage parsed to exclude her. There were only 9 days from the Ascension to Pentecost.

Mercygate’s personal, non-Magisterial theory: Our Lady spent the time between the Resurrection and Pentecost at the Bethany house with Lazarus, Mary & Martha. Nazareth was a long walk for a grieving mother. Her friends – especially Martha – would have seen to it that she was cared for until the big feast. As you know, Shavuot is major, and Jews wanted to be in Jerusalem. Acts 20 even mentions that "Paul decided to sail past Ephesus . . . for he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day ofPentecost.

 

[Leeann]

Mercygate(1st post)
After the Ascension, they point people to the Church. Where does the Holy Spirit first descend in power on the disciplies: when they are together, of one mind, in constant prayer WITH Mary . . .

mercygate: (2nd post)
Since the list of the disciples is given “with Mary . . .” and the reference follows “when they were all together,” **it points strongly **to Mary’s presence. I have never seen the passage parsed to exclude her. There were only 9 days from the Ascension to Pentecost.
Mercygate’s personal, non-Magisterial theory: Our Lady spent the time between the Resurrection and Pentecost at the Bethany house with Lazarus, Mary & Martha. Nazareth was a long walk for a grieving mother. Her friends – especially Martha – would have seen to it that she was cared for until the big feast. As you know, Shavuot is major, and Jews wanted to be in Jerusalem. Acts 20 even mentions that "Paul decided to sail past Ephesus . . . for he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost.

The only reason I parsed this passage this way, was to point out that there is a considerable difference from stating with “assurance” as to something being factual when there is no definite evidence for it being so. As indicated by your first post above where you state with assurance that the HS first descended in power on the disciples when they are together, of one mind, “in constant prayer WITH Mary”….indicating it is a “given fact” that she indeed was there and that this lends credence somehow to her significance.

In contrast, in your post in response to mine, (after I posted scripture indicating that Mary “may or may not” have been present at the time), you then state -“ *it points strongly to Mary’s presence *“.

Whether Mary was there or not is not of any great importance– as there were others listed with the disciples….in fact “the other women” are mentioned first…then Mary, His mother…and then His brethren….these too were all together in one accord, when the Apostles returned after Jesus’ ascension.

To some - 9 days may be a short time – to others, waiting in anticipation of such a great promise from their Lord that they had just witnessed ascending into heaven – may have seemed like an eternity. I know to me it would.

**mercygate:**After the Ascension, they point people to the Church.

As stated previously in my post – The Apostles – specifically Peter – immediately preached and taught “JESUS” after the HS came upon them……He didn’t point them “to the church.”

Acts2: 40- 46

38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. **40 **And with very many other words did he testify and exhort them, saying: Save yourselves from this perverse generation.
41 They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: many wonders also and signs were done by the apostles in Jerusalem, and there was great fear in all. 44 And all they that believed, were together, and had all things common. 45 Their possessions and goods they sold, and divided them to all, according as every one had need.
46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart; **47 **Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord increased daily together such as should be saved.

 

[AshleyBelle]

The only reason I parsed this passage this way, was to point out that there is a considerable difference from stating with “assurance” as to something being factual when there is no definite evidence for it being so. As indicated by your first post above where you state with assurance that the HS first descended in power on the disciples when they are together, of one mind, “in constant prayer WITH Mary”….indicating it is a “given fact” that she indeed was there and that this lends credence somehow to her significance.

In contrast, in your post in response to mine, (after I posted scripture indicating that Mary “may or may not” have been present at the time), you then state -“ *it points strongly to Mary’s presence *“.

Whether Mary was there or not is not of any great importance– as there were others listed with the disciples….in fact “the other women” are mentioned first…then Mary, His mother…and then His brethren….these too were all together in one accord, when the Apostles returned after Jesus’ ascension.

To some - 9 days may be a short time – to others, waiting in anticipation of such a great promise from their Lord that they had just witnessed ascending into heaven – may have seemed like an eternity. I know to me it would.

As stated previously in my post – The Apostles – specifically Peter – immediately preached and taught “JESUS” after the HS came upon them……He didn’t point them “to the church.”

Acts2: 40- 46

38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. **40 **And with very many other words did he testify and exhort them, saying: Save yourselves from this perverse generation.
41 They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: many wonders also and signs were done by the apostles in Jerusalem, and there was great fear in all. 44 And all they that believed, were together, and had all things common. 45 Their possessions and goods they sold, and divided them to all, according as every one had need.
46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart; **47 **Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord increased daily together such as should be saved.

I’m not sure how you’re saying this passage means they did not point to the church after Christ’s assension?

 

[AshleyBelle]

*They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls. * What were they added TO?

• And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart; **47 **Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord increased daily together such as should be saved. *
  
  This sounds very much like an assembly of body of believers… Much like a “church.” Or THE church… They were teaching their “doctrines” and “baptizing” and “breaking bread…” How do you interpret this to not mean church? Where does it imply that after the ascension they all searched the scriptures for themselves, and let the Holy Spirit lead them to their own interpretations of doctrines and what Christ wanted them to know? It sounds to me that “three thousand souls” were added to the BODY of Christ…The church.

 

[guanophore]

You know i’m here to make catholics happy… If you could get Church Miltant to do this on the forum that would help

No, I dont’ think Church Militant, talented and passionate he is, will be able to do Divine Liturgy on the forum.