Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[itsjustdave1988]

But there is still a chief pastor of the universal church that Jesus and His Apostles established - it’s HIM!

I agree. Jesus is the head of the Church. However, he charged Peter to “Tend my sheep.” Only Peter was called rock (kepha) by Christ in the NT. It was upon this kepha which Christ built his Church, and gave the “keys” of the kingdom, thereby making him the chief minister among all the other ministers. That Jesus is High Priest and Head does not mean that he did not also appoint other ministers, and a chief minister and give him the keys (authority).

Only the Catholic Church continues to be faithful to the NT ecclesiology of ONE GUY appointed as chief pastor for the Church universal, just as Jesus himself established, and God intended.

 

[guanophore]

Presbeuteros in both the Gospels and epistles is translated Elder, while in those same Gospels and epistles the word Priest is the Greek word hierues.

See your own Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible, Mt 27:12, as an example: both high priest (archiereus), and “ancients” (presbeuteros) in the same verse.

I agree. “Priest” is a Latinization of preseuteros.

There’s no NT priesthood such as you have in your church.

There is, but I can understand why you cannot see it in the NT writings.

And there are others who say that prior to 300 ad there’s no certainty.

I think the roles that we see in the NT have been developing ever since they were established. I have also been told that there was “never” a “deaconess” in the sense of ordained deacons, either. The Latin Rite prefers that this role be perceived as a nun, not an ordained individual.

However, the monastic traditions have also developed slowly, and the Mother Superior has always functioned like a Bishop or Abbess of the community.

according to Irenaeus, the successors were those of the apostles, and not just Peter.

Yes. Apostolic succession can be traced back historically to all of them.

The Gospel was rediscovered and recovered in the 16th century; that’s all I care about.

Clearly.

 

[utunumsint]

I think you misunderstood what I meant in the quote you posted of mine above, which was in reference to your own personal relationship with Him first and foremost and the needs that you expressed in your previous post.

I agree that “Christ does not operate alone” when it comes to being involved and concerned for our neighbours. When we are in union with Him in spirit, the desire to serve others in His honour and in His name and by His enabling power….should flow automatically from and through us to everyone we come in contact with.

If our own personal union is not firmly established in Him,……anything that we attempt to do is by our own human effort.

Agreed, however, would you not agree with me that there are others among us that have a higher degree of personal union with him than you and I? For me, that is all that a saint is: someone who is so closely united to Christ that he or she does nothing (or very little) to squander the graces they have received from their lord.

For me, the communion of saints is a very comforting doctrine, because it provides me with shining examples of people who have been transformed by God’s grace. They are the work of God, which inspires me and helps me to believe that God will transform my evil will in the same way, if only I cleave to him. We all need recourse to such examples as this, for the example and also for their prayers!!

Here is a quote from Paul Phillipians 3 7-

(But) whatever gains I had, these I have come to consider a loss because of Christ. More than that, **I even consider everything as a loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. **For his sake I have accepted the loss of all things and I consider them so much rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having any righteousness of my own based on the law but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God, depending on faith to know him and the power of his resurrection and (the) sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death, if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus). Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead, I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus. Let us, then, who are “perfectly mature” adopt this attitude. And if you have a different attitude, this too God will reveal to you. Only, with regard to what we have attained, continue on the same course. **Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us. **For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction. Their God is their stomach; their glory is in their “shame.” Their minds are occupied with earthly things.
But our citizenship 13 is in heaven, and from it we also await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. He will change our lowly body to conform with his glorified body by the power that enables him also to bring all things into subjection to himself.

So here we have Paul who considers everything as loss compared to the unsurpased knowledge of Christ, inviting us to immitate himself (and not Christ!!), and he also invites us to immitate those who immitate him; and this even after he admits that he had not yet attained the goal. Why would he not say to immitate Christ? Why would he invite the Phillipians to look to his own human example? And if it is alright to immitate Paul, why can we not look at the lives of the saints and immitate them as well? Why can we not look to them for intercession, who are mature in the spirit, who are citizens of heaven?

God bless,
Ut

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Nonsense. The pope is expressing not only his belief in Mary and what she can do but also what the Catholic church does in fact teach and promote. This is not slander. You are mistaken again…

Realcatholicgk;
Nosense, guanophore is correct. JA4 you are:thumbsup: wrong again!

Are you saying that the pope does not believe Mary is not a helper for the church and the church does not teach this?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4370472]
Originally Posted by justasking4
It is not biblical to “request (pray to) the angels and saints so that they join us in praise of God?” There are no such passages to support this.

guanophore
Wow. You have been very deprived. Try Jesus’ Prayer Book, aka, the Psalms. Try reciting them all every day, as the early monastics did. You will change your tune!

Would you happen to know a psalm where the psalmist exhorts praying to angels?

 

[guanophore]

Are you saying that the pope does not believe Mary is not a helper for the church and the church does not teach this?

The pope definitely believes that Mary can help Him. The Church teaches that all members of the Body of Christ can both help and hurt one another by our actions. Those in heaven are perfected in grace, and therefore, since they no longer struggle with sin, are the best prayer warriors. The Church teaches that Jesus came to get His mother when her days on earth were completed, and that she was assumed by Him to be with Him there for eternity. The Church teaches that Jesus gave Mary to “the faithful disciple that Jesus loved” at the foot of the cross, and in doing so, gave her to all who will stand with Him at the foot of the cross.

Would you happen to know a psalm where the psalmist exhorts praying to angels?

Given that we have different understandings about what prayer is, probably not. It is likely that you would not see any of the communication humans have with angels as prayer.

 

[justasking4]

AshleyBelle;4370316]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Does the truth the matter? If a person has good reasons to believe something is not true do they have a responsibility to address that?

AshleyBelle
Our only resonsibility is to share the truth. Not to belittle others who hold a truth different from our own.

i have never belittled anyone for doing this.

If you sincerely believe catholics do not have the “truth” in this matter as you do…then perhaps you should defend YOUR truth as much as you are demanding us to do.

I have. I have continually exhorted catholics and others to pray only to the Lord Jesus and have backed it up with Scripture. What has not been done by those who pray to Mary is that they have failed to show from Scripture anyone praying to her.

Why is it wrong to pray to Mary so that we may grow in devotion to Christ? Why is it wrong to ask our fellow saints (brothers and sisters) in heaven to pray for us?

The Scriptures do not teach this but rather our devotion and prayer is to be focused on Christ alone.

 

[AshleyBelle]

i have never belittled anyone for doing this.

I** have. I have continually exhorted catholics and others to pray only to the Lord Jesus and have backed it up with Scripture. What has not been done by those who pray to Mary is that they have failed to show from Scripture anyone praying to her. **

The Scriptures do not teach this but rather our devotion and prayer is to be focused on Christ alone.

THIS is what I meant by demanding a defense from us but on YOUR terms.

You want us to defend our faith with scripture alone, because that suits YOUR truth, and YOUR lense of viewing Christianity. But when we defend our faith with Scripture, tradition, and magisterium, it’s “not good enough” because you place this un-documentable demand on us that all tenants of faith must be IN THE BIBLE.

That is the unreasonable and belittling nature of your attacks on our faith. If you want us to defend what we believe, we are going to defend with WHAT WE BELIEVE.

You can’t ask us to fit our beliefs into YOUR parameters of how belief may be defined.

And if you want us to use your parameters, you need to show us where the Bible tells us all truth is in the Bible alone.

 

[justasking4]

The pope definitely believes that Mary can help Him. The Church teaches that all members of the Body of Christ can both help and hurt one another by our actions. Those in heaven are perfected in grace, and therefore, since they no longer struggle with sin, are the best prayer warriors. The Church teaches that Jesus came to get His mother when her days on earth were completed, and that she was assumed by Him to be with Him there for eternity. The Church teaches that Jesus gave Mary to “the faithful disciple that Jesus loved” at the foot of the cross, and in doing so, gave her to all who will stand with Him at the foot of the cross.

Mary is a special case and is a far far greater help than your average saint in Catholic theology. Just look at all the articles i have posted that demonstrate her role in the church. Only Mary is being considered **“the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ **on behalf of the human race.”

The other saints may help to a small degree but it is Mary who is almost god-like in her powers. She is by far the most prayed to of all the saints.

 

[justasking4]

AshleyBelle;4373667]THIS is what I meant by demanding a defense from us but on YOUR terms.

You want us to defend our faith with scripture alone, because that suits YOUR truth, and YOUR lense of viewing Christianity. But when we defend our faith with Scripture, tradition, and magisterium, it’s “not good enough” because you place this un-documentable demand on us that all tenants of faith must be IN THE BIBLE.

I have demonstrated that Marian devotions cannot be grounded in the Scriptures. There just is no exhortations or teachings in the Scriptures that tells Christians to pray to her.
Secondly, if its not in Scripture its not apostolic which means its the teachings of men. It is the idea of men.

That is the unreasonable and belittling nature of your attacks on our faith. If you want us to defend what we believe, we are going to defend with WHAT WE BELIEVE.

i don’t belittle but am exhorting you to look closely at the foundations of these doctrines and its this that i think causes such problems.

You can’t ask us to fit our beliefs into YOUR parameters of how belief may be defined.

Do you think its absolutely important for your beliefs to be grounded in the Scriptures? Do you think your church does?

And if you want us to use your parameters, you need to show us where the Bible tells us all truth is in the Bible alone.

i did not say all truth is. Rather in regards to matters of doctrine and practice it is only those that can be grounded in the Scriptures that are known to be true. To say that Mary and the saints can hear your prayers may sound reasonable but its not a biblical doctrine. Secondly, you have no way to know with any certainity that certain saint can hear you and can do what you ask. Thirdly as i have stated before its absolutely unnecessary since the Lord Jesus is our Great High Priest and Advocate. He alone is our “Helper” in the time of need. He alone is sufficent. This is solid Scripture teaching.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Mary is a special case and is a far far greater help than your average saint in Catholic theology. Just look at all the articles i have posted that demonstrate her role in the church. Only Mary is being considered **“the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ **on behalf of the human race.”

The other saints may help to a small degree but it is Mary who is almost god-like in her powers. She is by far the most prayed to of all the saints.

You are the one reading “god-like” into this statement, not the Catholic church.
Please read the description again:

“The Spiritual Mother of All Humanity” - We know straight from the Sacred Scriptures that Christ Himself gave us Mary, as OUR mother…the mother of all Christians. Not in a “god-like” way, but in a “spiritual mentor” way. Why do you think nuns are called sister, and mother?

“Co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer” - This is not implying that Mary had any power to redeem us, as Christ did. This is speaking of her special role in our Salvation. Without her “yes” to God, Christ would not have come into the world. That is how she “cooperaters” with our redemption, because she COOPERATED with Christ

Mediatrix of all graces with Jesus, the ONE mediator - Again, you are reading into this statement something that isn’t there. Notice that the “ONE mediator” is modifying the person of JESUS in this sentence. Not Mary. We acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the one mediator between us and the Father. “Mediatrix of all graces WITH Jesus” is emphasizing that Mary is eternally CONNECTED to Jesus, because of her role in participating in His humanity. Mary participated in the birth, life, suffering, death, and ressurection of Christ. She can “mediate graces WITH Jesus” because She is His and Our mother… She participates in all the works of Christ perfectly, giving us a perfect model of obedience and faithfulness to our Lord.

Note that none of these descriptions attribute ANY power to Mary that is her own! Everything that we honor in Mary, is because it is a GIFT of God! We honor Mary because of Christ working THROUGH her life and example to us. We honor Mary because she is our spiritual mother, our spiritual mentor of what it truly means to live a life DEVOTED to her son
Why are you able to read all of this and STILL come to the conclusion that it is idolotry or worship? It is right there in front of your eyes.. and you seem SET on twisting anything we tell you, because you are AFRAID to be WRONG about Catholics!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Mary is a special case…

YES she is!

…and is a far far greater help than your average saint in Catholic theology.

An average Saint? What a unique term! The Blessed Mother does hold a higher place than any other creature made by God!

Just look at all the articles i have posted that demonstrate her role in the church. Only Mary is being considered **“the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ **on behalf of the human race.”

The other saints may help to a small degree but it is Mary who is almost god-like in her powers. She is by far the most prayed to of all the saints.

No she isn’t “almost god-like”! she is a humble woman and real servant of God. Shet will intercede for us if we pray to her for help. She can do nothing on her own! But with the help of God she, like us can do allthings! Yes, more people pray to her due to her special status as the Mother of God than any other saint. Do you have a problem with that? I don’t think she does!

 

[guanophore]

The other saints may help to a small degree but it is Mary who is almost god-like in her powers. She is by far the most prayed to of all the saints.

I am just so puzzled why this bothers you so much. You are finding fault with the private writings, devotionals, and prayers of other Christains. What is it in you that compels you to do this?

I have demonstrated that Marian devotions cannot be grounded in the Scriptures.

Indeed, you seem to have done so. You are the only one that is convinced, but that is ok. So, since you are fully pursuaded that these devotions cannot be found in your bible, now what? Something apparently prevents you from going your way in peace. You feel compelled to zoom about here in CAF like a buzzing fly.

There just is no exhortations or teachings in the Scriptures that tells Christians to pray to her.

Such a statement belies a false premise.

Secondly, if its not in Scripture its not apostolic which means its the teachings of men. It is the idea of men.

Didn’t you just tell me yesterday that you did not say this? Yet, here you are saying it again.

My curiosity is, why does this “idea of men” that we pray to Mary bother you so much?

i don’t belittle but am exhorting you to look closely at the foundations of these doctrines and its this that i think causes such problems.

It causes problems only to you, ja4, and if you stopped bringing them up, you would probably forget about it, and it wouldn’t bother you any more! ARe you getting outside to play at all?

Do you think its absolutely important for your beliefs to be grounded in the Scriptures? Do you think your church does?

No. Catholics know that the faith, as delivered by Jesus to the Apostles, was whole and entire before any of it was written down. We also know that the Bible was never intended to be a complete compendium of everything that was taught and practiced.

This is only a problem for SS people.

i did not say all truth is. Rather in regards to matters of doctrine and practice it is only those that can be grounded in the Scriptures that are known to be true.

So, you have established what is true for you. yet, you feel it necessary to ignore the log in your own eye, and pick at the speck of sawdust that is in ours?

To say that Mary and the saints can hear your prayers may sound reasonable but its not a biblical doctrine. [/quot

I understand that you cannot “see” it in your Bible, darn to se anti-Catholic reading glasses! However, we do. But, even if we didn’t that would not be a concern either, since Catholicism is not a “bible” church.
justasking4;4373720:

Secondly, you have no way to know with any certainity that certain saint can hear you and can do what you ask.

Only those that have been revealed to us by God.

Thirdly as i have stated before its absolutely unnecessary since the Lord Jesus is our Great High Priest and Advocate. He alone is our “Helper” in the time of need. He alone is sufficent. This is solid Scripture teaching.

Interesting that scripture teaches differently. That is ok, though, we read it differently. Why not just skip the prayers to Mary, and find another devotional prayer that suits you better? Whey criticize the way others pray?

 

[AshleyBelle]

I have demonstrated that Marian devotions cannot be grounded in the Scriptures. There just is no exhortations or teachings in the Scriptures that tells Christians to pray to her.
Secondly, if its not in Scripture its not apostolic which means its the teachings of men. It is the idea of men.

 If this is the case, please show me where SCRIPTURE tells us that "if it's not in scripture it's not apostolic"

i don’t belittle but am exhorting you to look closely at the foundations of these doctrines and its this that i think causes such problems.

The foundation for our doctrines is through scripture, and the traditions handed to us THROUGH the apostles! Scripture supports THIS as you have been shown repeatedly, but continue to ignore.

Do you think its absolutely important for your beliefs to be grounded in the Scriptures? Do you think your church does?

I think it is absolutely important that doctrines not contradict scripture, and I know that scripture may not contradict doctrines or traditions. Please show me ONE tradition and doctrine of the Catholic church that is SPECIFFICALLY contradicted in scripture.

i did not say all truth is. Rather in regards to matters of doctrine and practice it is only those that can be grounded in the Scriptures that are known to be true. To say that Mary and the saints can hear your prayers may sound reasonable but its not a biblical doctrine. Secondly, you have no way to know with any certainity that certain saint can hear you and can do what you ask. Thirdly as i have stated before its absolutely unnecessary since the Lord Jesus is our Great High Priest and Advocate. He alone is our “Helper” in the time of need. He alone is sufficent. This is solid Scripture teaching.

If this is what you believe… Please show me where scripture says that all doctrine must be specified IN Scripture. I see plenty of scripture which points to the idea that doctrines and teachings must allign with the AUTHORITY Christ gave to the church, and that Sacred Scripture is the inspired word of God. But I can’t find anywhere that says all doctrine must be speciffically addressed in scripture.

Lastly, it is absolutely IMPLIED in scripture, which posters have shown you repeatedly! And again…you just ignore those passages or tell us that YOUR interpretation of those passages is the correct one.
So again. you have given us NO basis, to define doctrines and traditions based on YOUR parameters of the Bible alone.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

…i did not say all truth is. Rather in regards to matters of doctrine and practice it is only those that can be grounded in the Scriptures that are known to be true.** To say that Mary and the saints can hear your prayers may sound reasonable but its not a biblical doctrine. **

Yes, it is. And it is the Catholic Bible, "I meant the real bible, all books as we decreed it wsas before you “borrowed” t and erased many parts and distorted many verses. But, I am sure you have been told that hundreds of times before, So lets just disregard it again!

Secondly, you have no way to know with any certainity that certain saint can hear you and can do what you ask.

We have what we call miracles which prove they did hear us! So yes we do have a way!

Thirdly as i have stated before its absolutely unnecessary since the Lord Jesus is our Great High Priest and Advocate.

You might think it is unnecessary. Thank you for your opinion. I wrote it down. If we need any help with our religion we will refer to the list of people who’s opinion doesn’t matter and see if we can use anything you provided!

He alone is our “Helper” in the time of need.

No we have the angels, the saints, and also each other as “helpers” in times of need!

He alone is sufficent.

Of course, He is! I am rteally sure we never said he wasn’t! So, I am not sure what you are saying? Can you clarify?

This is solid Scripture teaching.

Who’s scripturtes? Not sure exactly what you mean by that. Can you clarify? Up top you said that all truth wasn’t contained in the bible. Now it is again?

 

[guanophore]

You might think it is unnecessary. Thank you for your opinion. I wrote it down. If we need any help with our religion we will refer to the list of people who’s opinion doesn’t matter and see if we can use anything you provided!

I love that. The List! LOL

.

Of course, He is! I am rteally sure we never said he wasn’t! So, I am not sure what you are saying? Can you clarify?

Who’s scripturtes? Not sure exactly what you mean by that. Can you clarify? Up top you said that all truth wasn’t contained in the bible. How it is again?.

I think you got it!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I am just so puzzled why this bothers you so much. You are finding fault with the private writings, devotionals, and prayers of other Christains. What is it in you that compels you to do this?

It may stem from a love/hate relation with a mother figure. We should pray to the Blessed Mother, for Justasking4’s healing. She can help heal his wounds.

Indeed, you seem to have done so. You are the only one that is convinced, but that is ok. So, since you are fully pursuaded that these devotions cannot be found in your bible, now what? Something apparently prevents you from going your way in peace. You feel compelled to zoom about here in CAF like a buzzing fly.

Or like a roaring lion, attempting to devour our souls?

Such a statement belies a false premise.

I know you previously told him there were no exhortations or teachings in the Scriptures that tells Christians not to pray to her.

Didn’t you just tell me yesterday that you did not say this? Yet, here you are saying it again.

Guan, you know there are more than one of them right? It may have been one of the others that said that! Maybe they don’t talk to each other?

My curiosity is, why does this “idea of men” that we pray to Mary bother you so much?

guan, Did you ever consider, maybe their mothers withheld love from them as babies? I imagine that it is hard to escape the after effects of a narcissistic mother. It is a Mental Health issue best left to experts in that field! Let’s pray to the Blessed Mother that they seek help! They can be healed!

It causes problems only to you, ja4, and if you stopped bringing them up, you would probably forget about it, and it wouldn’t bother you any more! Are you getting outside to play at all?

Their doctrines don’t have any firm foundations, that is what I think causes JA4 such problems.

No. Catholics know that the faith, as delivered by Jesus to the Apostles, was whole and entire before any of it was written down. We also know that the Bible was never intended to be a complete compendium of everything that was taught and practiced.

AMEN!

This is only a problem for SS people.

Do you think they realize that all our beliefs are firmly grounded in the Scriptures? Do you think their church really thinks their’s are?

So, you have established what is true for you. yet, you feel it necessary to ignore the log in your own eye, and pick at the speck of sawdust that is in ours?

Are we missing a log, in addition to some of our books? (looks around!)

I understand that you cannot “see” it in your Bible, darn to see anti-Catholic reading glasses! However, we do. But, even if we didn’t that would not be a concern either, since Catholicism is not a “bible” church.

guan, a question. Are we allow to tell Protestants that? Won’t they twist it and say we aren’t obeying God. Since they don’t have Sacred Tradition they don’t actually know him. I mean they have only read about Him in the Book!
Also, do Protestants consider the bible to be like a mini god? Let’s say on the same level with, hmmm… Luther? I really need to study more about them! But with over 1,375 different beliefs that could take me years!

Sigh! I wish they were like us! But then if they were, they would be a part of us! They wouldn’t be lost, practicing erroneous beliefs and spreading their corrupted doctrines. Oh, forget that I asked! I just got myself confused, without reading anything JustAsking4 wrote!

Only those that have been revealed to us by God.

Yea, I do love to hear about miracles!

Interesting that scripture teaches differently. That is ok, though, we read it differently. Why not just skip the prayers to Mary, and find another devotional prayer that suits you better? Why criticize the way others pray?

Because, their master demands obedience?

 

[guanophore]

guan, a question. Are we allow to tell Protestants that? Won’t they twist it and say we aren’t obeying God. Since they don’t have Sacred Tradition they don’t actually know him. I mean they have only read about Him in the Book!

I know, it is a bit of hyperbole, and I have been criticized for it in the past. You are right, it does get twisted, but they twist the Scripture anyway, and they already say we are not obeying God, so what is lost?

Also, do Protestants consider the bible to be like a mini god?

Most of them think that the Word of God is limited to Sacred Scripture. You are right, it is all they have,a nd they cannot imagine Christianity without it, because, in truth, they would not have any.

Sigh! I wish they were like us! But then if they were, they would be a part of us! They wouldn’t be lost, practicing erroneous beliefs and spreading their corrupted doctrines.

I believe that ja4 is very sincere in the mission of trying to show Cahtolics the wrongs of their faith, and to get Catholics to come to be “true Christians” (bible only Christians"). They remind me of Appollos. He was very fervent, though he only had part of the truth.

 

[sandusky]

itsjustdave1988:

Elder and priest are both what “presbyter” means. You might not like the fact that the English word “priest” derives from the word presbyter, but your lack of assent doesn’t change this fact. According to Merriam-Webster:
priest
Pronunciation: \ˈprēst\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English preist, from Old English prēost, ultimately from Late Latin presbyter — more at presbyter.
pres•by•ter
Pronunciation: \ˈprez-bə-tər, ˈpres-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin, elder, priest, from Greek presbyteros,

The writers of the Gospels and epistles had both words at their disposal, and they made the distinction between them. Did CC inaugurate a NT priesthood? No doubt. Do they have a NT precedent for it? No, they believed the church replaced Israel, and inherited all the promises made to Israel by God, right down to a priesthood.

"… we cannot leave the old standard so long as we see it to be the very standard which floated in the hand of Paul, and which was handed by him through divers generations, through Chrysostom to Augustine…" (CH Spurgeon, War, War, War, Sermon 250, May 1st, 1859]

You’re taking that out of context; if I’m not mistaken, he was talking about justification in that quote.

Here are a few quotes from Spurgeon on the priesthood.

(Warning: Some may be offended by what Spurgeon says; nevertheless, I believe it right to correct itsjustdave1988’s implication that the Spurgeon quote he offered was in reference to the RCC Priesthood, and that, as an old standard, it should be embraced, which was not Spurgeon’s position on the priesthood.)

itsjustdave1988:

Yes, it is a quibble, as the Church of Rome was everywhere known as the “See of Peter,” as documented in the writings of the early Church fathers and early councils.

A quibble that caused a schism.

itsjustdave1988:

Since the downfall of Popery and the cessation of excommunications and spiritual penalties, the people have learned to despise the word of God. They no longer care for the churches; they have ceased to fear and honor God…After throwing off the yoke of the Pope, everyone wishes to live as he pleases. [They say] ‘we will spend the day like Lutherans. Drunkenness has come upon us like a deluge.’ If God had not closed my eyes, and if I had foreseen these scandals, I would never have begun to teach the gospel." (WL 6, 920)

“I confess… that I am more negligent than I was under the Pope and there is now nowhere such an amount of earnestness under the Gospel, as was fomerly seen among monks and priests.” (WL 9. 1311)

Luther’s lament is sad indeed, but his amazing theological acumen is the joy of multitudes. :extrahappy:

 

[guanophore]

i have never belittled anyone for doing this.

We see it differently, ja4. Maybe, from your point of view, coming to a Catholic Forum and telling Catholics who are fervent about their faith that they are “doing it wrong” is not belittling, but it is from our perspective. If we wanted your spiritual direction, we would come to YOUR forum, and ask for it. CAF is a venue where sincere persons can ask genuine questions, not an opportunity for you to find fault with the faith practices of others.

Every time you say “the bible never…” it is belittling.

I have. I have continually exhorted catholics and others to pray only to the Lord Jesus and have backed it up with Scripture. What has not been done by those who pray to Mary is that they have failed to show from Scripture anyone praying to her.

Here is a good example. We don’t need, or want, your “exhortation”, thanks. CAF is not provided as an opportunity for you to “exhort” us about our faith, and try to interfere with our prayer lives.

The Scriptures do not teach this but rather our devotion and prayer is to be focused on Christ alone.

Then do so, and let us do it the way it was taught to us by the Apostles. Make a decision to be tolerant, and allow others to believe differently than you.