Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

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No. You are piling a lot of things into one heap and labeling it according your personal observation. Catholic soteriology is not centered in Mary. True devotion to Our Lady is entirely derivative from the Person of Jesus Christ. You are allowing your own limited experience to overshadow the facts.
Take a look at this website. This is what Leeann is talking about.
eucharisticlife.org/queenship_mary.html

These quotes are from this website:

Would it be bordering on the heretical to say, that as Christ first came into the world physically in, of and through the womb of Mary and by her will, that He permits himself to be spiritually and mysteriously reborn in every Mass only in, of and through Mary and by her will?" John Cardinal O’Connor (1920 - 2000 A.D.)

We can only go to Him through her. The more we love the Eucharist, the more we must love Mary." St. Peter Julian Eymard
 
I am expressing what is evident in my friends’ experiences and how they have embraced the Marian Theology to the point that their devotion and their faith in Mary, has overshadowed Christ.
Exactly. And you allow what you describe as a practice inconsistent with Churh teaching to overshadow what the Church actually believes. I realize that you are sincere, but I believe that you are capable of greater intellectual honesty than this.
I believe the Incarnation is about Jesus paying a debt that He *did not *owe……on behalf of us.
We need Him.
Ah. I see you need to brush up on the hypostatic union.
God doesn’t “need” any of us in the sense that if we don’t co-operate with Him, His plan will ultimately fail…
Hmmm. I’m thinking about this. I’m not sure that the plan CAN fail. Yet certainly, we must cooperate with the grace of the Cross in order to receive it . . . . As Our Lady did. And Simon of Cyrene – even though he had no idea what he was doing . . .
 
Take a look at this website. This is what Leeann is talking about.
eucharisticlife.org/queenship_mary.html

These quotes are from this website:

Would it be bordering on the heretical to say, that as Christ first came into the world physically in, of and through the womb of Mary and by her will, that He permits himself to be spiritually and mysteriously reborn in every Mass only in, of and through Mary and by her will?" John Cardinal O’Connor (1920 - 2000 A.D.)

We can only go to Him through her. The more we love the Eucharist, the more we must love Mary." St. Peter Julian Eymard
OK. I don’t find that problematic, nor would I have found it problematic as a Protestant. Once you get it that the Holy Spirit and Our Lady have a relationship that is unique in creation because of the Incarnation, it makes perfect sense to understand that whenever Christ is born in the human heart, He is “conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.” The economy of salvation is not found as a collection of fragments but a unity of will.
 
So, one thousand posts later, where are we …
Good question. . .
There are none so blind as those who will not see, and none so deaf as those who will not hear.

I sincerely wish Leeann and ron well, though I am saddened that they have embraced error as truth and have closed eyes, ears, and minds when many, many Catholics such as I have given them legitimate, authoritative answers to their errors. I know that of course they must feel about their own ‘beliefs’ much as I do. . . despite all their attempts to make me accept THEIR beliefs as truth I never would. The only difference is that my Catholic beliefs don’t just rest on me (I’m just a fallible human). They rest on Christ, and not just because I ‘think’ they do. . .because I can actually look to a legitimate authority, the Church established by Christ and given that authority. That’s why along with St. Paul I can be sure that the gospel I know is the ‘real’ one, and that those who preach against it, even if they claim theirs is from God, even if they ‘look’ or sound like ‘angels of light’, are preaching error. And that’s why if I were in Leeann’s shoes, at some point, intellectual honesty and the Holy Spirit would have me saying, “on what authority am I denying the Catholic Church and how can I be sure I’m right?” And again, intellectual honesty and the Holy Spirit would, at some point, have me (were I Leeann) acknowledging that a person in denying the Catholic Church is actually denying Christ’s authority and elevating his or her own self to be the ultimate authority. Leeann is saying then not only that the Catholic Church is wrong, but that she, somehow, is ‘right’. . .and thus, she is claiming herself as ultimate authority, but not giving any proof of that authority other than that on HER Scriptural cherry picking, or opinions regarding her friends words or actions, she ‘feels’ that she is right.

Now see, I couldn’t do that. Lord knows as a younger woman struggling with church teachings (specificially Humanae Vitae) I often ‘felt’ that the teachings went against the intellectual climate of the day, but it was obvious to me that the ‘intellectual climate’ was not any kind of ultimate authority. "intellectual climates’ are relative, not absolute. And they can be wrong (and were). The more I examined the Church’s teachings, the more obvious it was that any ‘difficulty’ I had in accepting their authority was due to MY lack, not THEIRs.

If one has no authority other than one’s ‘relative’ feelings and ‘beliefs’, one is building on a foundation of sand. Because any ‘difficulties’ with things like Scriptural texts (John 6) don’t rest on the TRUTH of the Scripture, as they do for Catholics, but on an ‘interpretation’ which can differ from individual to individual, as they do for Protestants. Thus one given Protestant can believe in consubstantiation, another can feel Jesus is present in ‘some kind of way’, yet another can feel it’s symbolic, and yet another can find the whole subject ultimately not important enough to even mention at a service. Same Scripture but many DIFFERENT interpretations, and not just different but actually CONTRADICATORY. . .and all claiming ‘authority’.

Protestant theology and teachings which contradict Catholic theology and teachings ultimately just don’t make sense, Biblically or otherwise.
 
OK. I don’t find that problematic, nor would I have found it problematic as a Protestant. Once you get it that the Holy Spirit and Our Lady have a relationship that is unique in creation because of the Incarnation, it makes perfect sense to understand that whenever Christ is born in the human heart, He is “conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.” The economy of salvation is not found as a collection of fragments but a unity of will.
I know you don’t really believe that. You’re too smart. You just don’t want to say Cardinal O’Connor & St. Peter Julian Eymard are doctrinally incorrect. Christ was born from a woman only once and we can go to Jesus without an intercessor if we want to. If we need an intercessor…nothing wrong with that.
 
I know you don’t really believe that. You’re too smart. You just don’t want to say Cardinal O’Connor & St. Peter Julian Eymard are doctrinally incorrect. Christ was born from a woman only once and we can go to Jesus without an intercessor if we want to. If we need an intercessor…nothing wrong with that.
Please do not attribute motives to me. O’Connor and Eymard are not incorrect. If you love Jesus, you love His Mother; the Holy Spirit holds the entire enterprise together in love.

We are all intercessors when we pray for one another.

The unique Mediation and reconciliation of God to man through the Incarnation is by the hypostatic union; this is not intercessory but a mediation of and through the flesh of Christ, as the Athanasian Symbol asserts: “not by God taking on flesh but by taking the manhood into God.”

Christ “ever lives to intercede for us” but others also intercede. Such intercessory ‘mediation’ is the mediation of simple advocacy – which all of us can do. This is not the ONE mediation that ONLY Christ achieves through His Incarnation by the outpouring of His precious blood on Calvary.
 
So, one thousand posts later, where are we …
Catholics are following the teaching of the visible Church on earth, the CC; and the folks Christ left in charge, the Apostles and their successors, the Bishops in full communion with the see of Rome that make up the Magisterium of the CC throughout the world who have fought hearsies for going on 2000yrs.

On the other hand as you can readily see in some responses on this thread and others, that are of the same genere- topic, there are very many little wanna be popes with many different understandings in the whole of sacred scripture.

Kingship is what it is, under the Authorship Authority] of Jesus Christ. He left us a prime minister in Peter, whether you believe it or not, so the preponderence of evidence, lies in the apostolic succession of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as teachers of Christ and his Mother.

1 Kings 2: 19 So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.

20 Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.”

I wonder if any think of the marriage feast at Cana after these verses would not Jesus, without sin honor his mother as Soldmon did.🤷

Peace, onenow1:coffee:
 
**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I am expressing what is evident in my friends’ experiences and how they have embraced the Marian Theology to the point that their devotion and their faith in Mary, has overshadowed Christ.
Exactly. And you allow what you describe as a practice inconsistent with Churh teaching to overshadow what the Church actually believes. I realize that you are sincere, but I believe that you are capable of greater intellectual honesty than this.
So are you saying that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe that praying to/through Mary is proper – that they don’t teach this – and that they don’t vigorously support and present this as well as other abilities afforded to Mary in their teachings – even though Jesus and the Apostles never taught or preached or suggested it?
Leeann:
I believe the Incarnation is about Jesus paying a debt that He did not owe……on behalf of us.
We need Him.
mercygate:
Ah. I see you need to brush up on the hypostatic union.
I was making reference to the end part of you statement:
“The Incarnation is about man paying the debt he, and only he owes but cannot pay.”

mercygate:
God doesn’t “need” any of us in the sense that if we don’t co-operate with Him, His plan will ultimately fail…
Hmmm. I’m thinking about this. I’m not sure that the plan CAN fail.
I’m with you on that - it can’t…we’ve got the book, we know the outcome!
mercygate:
Yet certainly, we must cooperate with the grace of the Cross in order to receive it . . . . As Our Lady did. And Simon of Cyrene – even though he had no idea what he was doing . . .
There you go – Simon cooperated without any special “blessings” – just as other believers have and will do…. __________________
 
Would it be bordering on the heretical to say, that as Christ first came into the world physically in, of and through the womb of Mary and by her will, that He permits himself to be spiritually and mysteriously reborn in every Mass only in, of and through Mary and by her will?" John Cardinal O’Connor (1920 - 2000 A.D.)
Not by the Catholic Church’s teachings….it wouldn’t be “bordering on the heretical”….it’s just one more statement that dilutes and diminishes Christ’s pre-eminence.
We can only go to Him through her. The more we love the Eucharist, the more we must love Mary." St. Peter Julian Eymard
So no one can come to Jesus, except through Mary?
 
So are you saying that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe that praying to/through Mary is proper – that they don’t teach this – and that they don’t vigorously support and present this as well as other abilities afforded to Mary in their teachings – even though Jesus and the Apostles never taught or preached or suggested it?

You tell us you have friends whose devotion is EXCLUSIVELY to Mary. This is inconsistent with Catholic doctrine. She is inseparable from the salvific enterprise but Christ is the Redeemer. Period.
I was making reference to the end part of you statement:
“The Incarnation is about man paying the debt he, and only he owes but cannot pay.”
I was making reference to what I thought was your misunderstanding of the hypostatic union.
There you go – Simon cooperated without any special “blessings” – just as other believers have and will do…. __________________
I disagree. Everyone cooperates via grace. The Incarnation is unique.
 
The original question makes the fundamental (no pun intended) error of creating a false dichotomy–an ‘either-or’ situation is hypotheized which does not exist.

The whole idea that Catholic teaching separates Mary and Jesus into two opposing beings and then asks its adherents to choose ‘between’ them is a flawed idea in the first place.

Praying to Mary is not done ‘instead of’ praying to Jesus. It never was and it never will be.

Therefore, those who seek Jesus do not seek Mary ‘instead of’ Him, but find her there pointing to Him.

I
 
Also, Leeann, you have never given us proof that the Apostles and Jesus ‘never taught the Catholic teaching about Mary’.

In fact, they did. It is you and those like you who disregard 2000 years of Catholic teaching in order to teach a man-made gospel.
 
I bagsy the last post 😛 😛 😛 😛 😛 😛

Interesting thread some of the time, but gosh it was migraine inducing in places 😃
 
Not by the Catholic Church’s teachings….it wouldn’t be “bordering on the heretical”….it’s just one more statement that dilutes and diminishes Christ’s pre-eminence.

So no one can come to Jesus, except through Mary?
That’s one of the erroneous doctrines the expound.
 
I pray that Jesus will bring us all together one day–where we will be with Him --and His Father AND mother-- forever and ever.
 
Did Jesus come to us through being born of Mary, or not?

A simple yes or no will suffice.
 
Not at all. . .I simply recognize that Mary did not stop being Jesus’ mother at any point.
 
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