Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[guanophore]

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Question:

**In view of the Pope saying - “*we will not ****know to whom to turn”… *my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

I am still amazed that you are offended by the pious devotional prayers of other Christians. You seem intent upon pulling out what you perceive as tares among the wheat.

I am curious, why do you suppose that the people hosting the wedding in Cana went to Mary, instead of Jesus with their problem?

 

[joshua_b]

If this has been brought up, I apologize for “thread jumping” and not reading the thread in it’s entirety.

I think the problem most non-catholic christians have with this is the word “prayer”. Catholic and Orthodox christians equate true and proper “worship” with SACRIFICE. Non-catholics do not hold this view, and since they lack valid Apostolic succession, they can not fulfill the qualifications of worship in this capacity anyway, so, their definition of “worship” is shifted to actions that equate to lauding, praise, prayer, and reflecting. This seems to be the non-catholic view of worship as best I can tell, and of course all worship is to be given to God alone.

Prayer, as I am sure has been pointed out, is a word who’s usage in context seems to have shifted over the times. Catholic and Orthodox christians would state rather simply that prayer, although an intgral part of true worship, does not in any way equate worship in and by itself by it’s plain academic definition.

If anyone is so obstinant as to refuse to acknowledge that the plain and simple definition of the word “pray” is not equivalent to “worship” then there will never be any understanding by non-catholics of this practice of “Mary worship”.

 

[RobHom]

P.S. I think a large part of the problem is that the phrase “praying to Mary and the saints” is very often ripped out of the context of the rest of Aquinas’ thought.

I myself don’t claim to be an expert on Thomism or Scholasticism, but one important point of it is that, for Aquinas, we are “praying to” the saints every time we ask them for prayers, hence Christians had already been “praying to the saints” for centuries (even if they didn’t call it that).

I would like to add that one needs to make clear that the word “pray” has more than one meaning:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pray
Main Entry:
pray Listen to the pronunciation of pray
Pronunciation:
\ˈprā\
Function:
verb
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgēn to ask, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asks
Date:
13th century

transitive verb 1 : entreat , implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea

2 : to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb

1 : to make a request in a humble manner

2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
*

Asking intercession (1) is not the same as addressing God.

Only when non-Catholics “grasp” that conceptually or otherwise, will they begin to understand how we as Catholics view this issue.

What I find so interesting about this entire subject…is that non-Catholics who claim adherence to Bible-only theology, make more of an issue of it than we do…even though intercessory praying is Bible directed>>>>

 

[RobHom]

If the Holy Father was addressing Catholics - and it seems he was - then he is following Jesus’ Own direction that we turn to Mary. In giving Mary to the Apostle John, as He was dying on the cross, He gave Mary to all of us as our mother. There can be no doubt that Mary is in heaven. Why shouldn’t we follow the directive of Jesus and approach Mary as our mother? As for the Apostles and whether they did or didn’t lead others to Mary, it’s irrelevant. She was alive among them. For us, she is present and alive forever in heaven. If people want to disregard the action of Jesus Himself in this matter, then such people have other problems that are much too complicated for addressing here.

AMEN!!!

 

[RobHom]

I do hope that LeeAnn’s original question has been answered. . .but then, I thought it was well and truly answered, many times over, on the original first thread, now resurrected.

The original question was answered, with repetitive redundancy…

Now, it may be that the answer isn’t what LeeAnn or others might want to accept --but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t answered. It just means the answer ‘isn’t accepted.’

Your last sentence says it all!! Sad, isn’t it?

 

[catharina]

AMEN!!!

Rob - thank you. I know my statement was strong, but TRUE!

 

[guanophore]

I think the biggest problem with the answers that have been given, my own included, is the lack of sources/references. I imagine their are papal statements, or statements from reputable Catholic theologians, elaborating on the “we wouldn’t know whom else to turn to” rhetoric, but I really wouldn’t know how to go about finding them.

I am not so sure. If a private devotion such as this prayer does not contradict the teaching of the church, there would be no need to write about it. Whenever one reads such things in the light of the Church teachings, it is clear that there is no dichotomy. Leeann apparently cannot do this.

 

[catharina]

I am not so sure. If a private devotion such as this prayer does not contradict the teaching of the church, there would be no need to write about it. Whenever one reads such things in the light of the Church teachings, it is clear that there is no dichotomy. Leeann apparently cannot do this.

Maybe Leeann hasn’t been able to do this yet.
At times, people trap themselves with hypothetical questions of their own devising.

(example: How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?)

 

[guanophore]

Maybe Leeann hasn’t been able to do this yet.
At times, people trap themselves with hypothetical questions of their own devising.

(example: How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?)

Yes, thanks for that correction. No, actually I think she developed a concern over this when certain loved ones of hers apparently carried their Marian devotions to the extent that Jesus was excluded.

 

[Leeann]

I haven’t been responding as much on this thread as I did on the original one, but I have been reading all the posts and appreciate the time and effort that has gone into the replies.

It is not difficult to get side-tracked into other areas, especially when comments are posted that tend to be directed at taking a swipe at other posters, for no other reason than self-gratification it would appear….(something like I’ve just done maybe? )……but that’s human nature and to be expected…sad but true.

Also - it is not so much a matter of the “question” being answered sufficiently by any “one” poster, as much as it is the way the views have been expressed by “various posters” - at times indicating a different understanding or acceptance of what has been taught or expounded and absorbed over the years by both Catholic and non-Catholic believers.

There have been new posters on this thread that have expressed their views wonderfully, and although I may not agree with them, it has been beneficial to be able to see a broader perspective in regards to this thread topic.

Thank you guanophore – for clarifying my interest and why I am here. I mean that sincerely.

 

[catharina]

Guanophore and leeann - thanks so much.
It helps to learn another’s frame of reference.

As for your relatives, leeann, if they are actually Catholic, then almost certainly they worship (and appreciate!) Our Lord during Mass and at Reconciliation. Maybe their Marian devotions seem excessive to you but that could be the case if you knew other folks with singular devotion to a saint - such as Jude or Therese of Lisieux. God leads each along his/her own path.

 

[Peter_J]

I would like to add that one needs to make clear that the word “pray” has more than one meaning:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pray

Yes, I’ve been thinking about that too. Quite a lot of the confusion on this topic comes, I believe, from people reading either too much or too little into the English word “pray”. (Wouldn’t it be nice if we all spoke Latin? )

 

[David47]

I have been reading all that has been said through all of the threads and a lot of the forums it is sad that as human beings we take a nut of information ( the essence) and expound it into planet size and then believe that others will understand what we have done. By faith we are saved and by continued faith we will be continued to be saved. Our Lord and our God gave us all we needed to know 2000 years ago, however we as humans continue to add to it and to add interpretations which we continue to debate and argue about. It is time to put this to rest and focus on the ONE who came to save us all, it was his job and he fulfilled it completely, anything else is superficial and is part of our human nature to make it better than it is. WOW what ego’s we have to make it better. He did his job it is now up to us to spread this word ( Gospel) to everyone who will listen. His job was perfect He saved us all who will listen. He has been and always will be there for all of us no matter who we are or what church we attend.
God Bless You All

My First and may be my Last Post

 

[Non_Serviam]

I’m seeing a lot of self-congratulation on this thread by a number of Catholics for “answering” the question, but I still don’t see any quotes posted to show the Apostles would have done this.

The church of “The Apostles Might Have Said That” seems to be gaining a lot of members from the Catholic ranks.

If you have quotes from the first couple of centuries of church history that show the Apostles praying to Mary or dead saints or encouraging such prayer, post them. If not, the congratulations are somewhat premature methinks.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m seeing a lot of self-congratulation on this thread by a number of Catholics for “answering” the question, but I still don’t see any quotes posted to show the Apostles would have done this.

The church of “The Apostles Might Have Said That” seems to be gaining a lot of members from the Catholic ranks.

I think we all need a chance to laugh at ourselves once in a while.

If you have quotes from the first couple of centuries of church history that show the Apostles praying to Mary or dead saints or encouraging such prayer, post them. If not, the congratulations are somewhat premature methinks.

If you don’t mind a little self-quotation:

I myself don’t claim to be an expert on Thomism or Scholasticism, but one important point of it is that, for Aquinas, we are “praying to” the saints every time we ask them for prayers, hence Christians had already been “praying to the saints” for centuries (even if they didn’t call it that).

Note those last 7 words: “even if they didn’t call it that”. Hence, I don’t see how I’m supposed to come up with “quotes from the first couple of centuries of church history that show the Apostles praying to Mary or dead saints or encouraging such prayer”, seeing as the phrase “praying to the saints” is 2nd-millennium terminology. :ehh:

To put it another way, if you don’t accept Aquinas’ claim that asking the saints for prayers implies “praying to the saints”, then I don’t see any way to convince you that “praying to the saints” happened in the 1st millennium.

 

[ferdie]

I’m seeing a lot of self-congratulation on this thread by a number of Catholics for “answering” the question, but I still don’t see any quotes posted to show the Apostles would have done this.

The church of “The Apostles Might Have Said That” seems to be gaining a lot of members from the Catholic ranks.

If you have quotes from the first couple of centuries of church history that show the Apostles praying to Mary or dead saints or encouraging such prayer, post them. If not, the congratulations are somewhat premature methinks.

How about the writings in the catachombs where Bishops and priest say mass? Do they count?

 

[Non_Serviam]

I think we all need a chance to laugh at ourselves once in a while.

If you don’t mind a little self-quotation:

Note those last 7 words: “even if they didn’t call it that”. Hence, I don’t see how I’m supposed to come up with “quotes from the first couple of centuries of church history that show the Apostles praying to Mary or dead saints or encouraging such prayer”, seeing as the phrase “praying to the saints” is 2nd-millennium terminology. :ehh:

To put it another way, if you don’t accept Aquinas’ claim that asking the saints for prayers implies “praying to the saints”, then I don’t see any way to convince you that “praying to the saints” happened in the 1st millennium.

Peter,

I noted your distinction when you first posted it-what I haven’t seen since is a text that shows an Apostle asking for prayers from a dead saint or recommending that others ask a dead saint for prayers. Show me a quote with the word "ask’ in it instead of “pray” that meets my above criteria and I’ll give it consideration.

If there’s something more to your distinction that I’m not seeing, please excuse me for not grasping it. I sense you’re trying to find common ground here, I’m just not sure what it would be.

Regards,

NS

 

[Non_Serviam]

How about the writings in the catachombs where Bishops and priest say mass? Do they count?

Ferdie,

These do seem to be one of the key pieces of evidence advanced for the belief-I don’t have access to most of the reference works I’ve seen mentioned regarding them (If someone knows of a web resource, please let me know). From what I can understand in the catholic Encyclopedia, such inscriptions were only found in Rome and not in other areas. (again, feel free to correct me on this)

Given this it’s unclear to me whether the practice is Apostolic in origin or whether some in the Roman church practiced it and with the later prominence of the Roman church it spread as a practice to other regions.

If you’ve got resources you can point me toward that would be great, thanks.

 

[guanophore]

t-what I haven’t seen since is a text that shows an Apostle asking for prayers from a dead saint or recommending that others ask a dead saint for prayers. Show me a quote with the word "ask’ in it instead of “pray” that meets my above criteria and I’ll give it consideration.

If there’s something more to your distinction that I’m not seeing, please excuse me for not grasping it. I sense you’re trying to find common ground here, I’m just not sure what it would be.

Regards,

NS

This is really very simple. The Apostles prayed for others:

2 Cor 13:8-9
9 For we rejoice when we are weak and you are strong. This is what we pray for, that you may become perfect.

The Apostles believed that those who were in Christ would never die.

John 6:58-59
But the one who eats this bread will live forever."

The Apostles believed in the communion of saints, that we are all members of One Body, and that everything one person does affects all the others.

1 Cor 12:26
26 If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it.

Col 2:4-5
5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, and I rejoice to see your morale and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

The Apostles believed and taught that being separated from the body (through physical death) meant being with God in the Spirit.

2 Cor 5:8-10
8 Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.

For them, there was no separation or distinction between asking the prayers of saints who are still here, and those who had gone to be with the Lord.

What evidence can you show that the Apostles would STOP praying for the Church after they left the body?

 

[ferdie]

Ferdie,

These do seem to be one of the key pieces of evidence advanced for the belief-I don’t have access to most of the reference works I’ve seen mentioned regarding them (If someone knows of a web resource, please let me know). From what I can understand in the catholic Encyclopedia, such inscriptions were only found in Rome and not in other areas. (again, feel free to correct me on this)

Given this it’s unclear to me whether the practice is Apostolic in origin or whether some in the Roman church practiced it and with the later prominence of the Roman church it spread as a practice to other regions.

If you’ve got resources you can point me toward that would be great, thanks.

Non Servian, when I was studying my way back to catholicism, there was no internet, so I borrowed books in the library or when I can afford a book, I bought them. But most of what I know, I copied from the books I borrowed. But sorry I am a poor researcher that I didn’t bother to copy the title of the book. But this is what I wrote down on my surviving notes;

This inscription writen down on a marble slab that sealed off the emains of the martyr Sabbatius buried in the catacomb of Saints Gordian and Epimachus.

SABBATI DVLCIS ANIMA PETE ET ROGA PRO FRATERS ET SODALES TVOS

‘O Sabbatius,sweet soul, ask and pray for your brothers and companions’