Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Good_Fella]

Okay leeann if you were going to ask anyone in this world to help pray with you. Who would you ask. Who do you think is any closer to the Jesus than his Mother.

Do you understand stand what the Pope meant now. He never said I will replace God with the Blessed Mother.

He was saying without her to pray with him and her prayers to help him he does not know who he would go to. The Pope understands that Jesus left us one other very important gift. HIS MOTHER. And he made her all of our Mother.

Who can you relate to more, and who besides God loves you anymore than your Mother.

A Mother will walk through fire for her child. A Mother is so close to a child like no other. A mother carried you inside of her. IT gets no closer than that. A Mothers Love. You understand. We are her kids and she will do whatever she can to help us.

But the child’s mother said, “As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you.” So he arose and followed her.
2 Kings 4, 30

When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son.” *And to the disciple, * “Here is your mother.” From that time on, ‘the disciple’ took her into his home.
John 19, 26-27

All true disciples of Christ take Mary, our Blessed Mother, into their hearts as she leads the way in the order of grace taking them by the hand to their heavenly home just as she took John’s hand and led the way to their home. By addressing his mother first, Jesus has actually entrusted Mary with taking care of us in our spiritual journey and pilgrimage of faith as his disciples and witnesses. Our Blessed Mother is certainly the caretaker of our souls in collaboration with the Holy Spirit who had overshadowed her. In the order of grace, and as a “steward of God’s grace”, Mary is God’s greatest “co-worker” in and through Christ.

We musn’t forget that the child in Elizabeth’s womb had leapt precisely at the sound of Mary’s voice just as David had leapt for joy at the sight of the ark of the Covenant. Mary has always served our heavenly Father by channeling his grace of salvation to the world through the Source of All Grace. We invoke Mary for her maternal intercession because we are confident that she will draw us to her divine Son with the help of God’s grace through her prayers. It is only fitting, since Mary was the one who was chosen to bring the Saviour to the world. Paul tells us that the we are called to share the graces we have received, according to the measure of our gifts, with others so that we can help lead them to God. Through the gift of her Divine Maternity, Mary shares with us the fullness of grace she has received, for she brings us the Source of All Grace. We have every cause to leap for joy at the sound of her prayers.

In the order of grace, Mary stands nearest to God among all the saints in heaven. In this sense she is our last hope, for by virtue of her Divine Maternity and Immaculate Conception she is the most influential among all the angels and saints in heaven. There wouldn’t be any other saints in heaven or on earth we could possibly turn to for their prayers if it weren’t for the divine favour Mary has been granted by God. The graces we receive through her meet the measure of grace she has received and has to share as God’s steward. The gift Mary has received is her divine Son through whom she shares with us the grace we need for our salvation.

“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne?”
Isaiah, 49, 15

"For if Mary, as those declare with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to his mother, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and not ‘Behold, you have this son also,’ then he virtually said to her, ‘Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.’ Is it not the case that everyone who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, ‘Behold, thy son, Christ?’ "
Origen, Commentary on John, 1:6 (A.D. 232)

“I love to call her [Mary] the Church. This mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a ‘woman’. But she is once virgin and mother – pure as a virgin, loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood.”
Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 1:6 (A.D. 202)

Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.
Revelation 12, 17

“Do whatever he tells you.”
John 2, 5

PAX :snowing:

 

[guanophore]

But the child’s mother said, “As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you.” So he arose and followed her.
2 Kings 4, 30

When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son.” *And to the disciple, * “Here is your mother.” From that time on, ‘the disciple’ took her into his home.
John 19, 26-27

All true disciples of Christ take Mary, our Blessed Mother, into their hearts as she leads the way in the order of grace taking them by the hand to their heavenly home just as she took John’s hand and led the way to their home. By addressing his mother first, Jesus has actually entrusted Mary with taking care of us in our spiritual journey and pilgrimage of faith as his disciples and witnesses. Our Blessed Mother is certainly the caretaker of our souls in collaboration with the Holy Spirit who had overshadowed her. In the order of grace, and as a “steward of God’s grace”, Mary is God’s greatest “co-worker” in and through Christ.

We musn’t forget that the child in Elizabeth’s womb had leapt precisely at the sound of Mary’s voice just as David had leapt for joy at the sight of the ark of the Covenant. Mary has always served our heavenly Father by channeling his grace of salvation to the world through the Source of All Grace. We invoke Mary for her maternal intercession because we are confident that she will draw us to her divine Son with the help of God’s grace through her prayers. It is only fitting, since Mary was the one who was chosen to bring the Saviour to the world. Paul tells us that the we are called to share the graces we have received, according to the measure of our gifts, with others so that we can help lead them to God. Through the gift of her Divine Maternity, Mary shares with us the fullness of grace she has received, for she brings us the Source of All Grace. We have every cause to leap for joy at the sound of her prayers.

In the order of grace, Mary stands nearest to God among all the saints in heaven. In this sense she is our last hope, for by virtue of her Divine Maternity and Immaculate Conception she is the most influential among all the angels and saints in heaven. There wouldn’t be any other saints in heaven or on earth we could possibly turn to for their prayers if it weren’t for the divine favour Mary has been granted by God. The graces we receive through her meet the measure of grace she has received and has to share as God’s steward. The gift Mary has received is her divine Son through whom she shares with us the grace we need for our salvation.

“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne?”
Isaiah, 49, 15

"For if Mary, as those declare with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to his mother, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and not ‘Behold, you have this son also,’ then he virtually said to her, ‘Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.’ Is it not the case that everyone who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, ‘Behold, thy son, Christ?’ "
Origen, Commentary on John, 1:6 (A.D. 232)

“I love to call her [Mary] the Church. This mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a ‘woman’. But she is once virgin and mother – pure as a virgin, loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood.”
Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 1:6 (A.D. 202)

Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.
Revelation 12, 17

“Do whatever he tells you.”
John 2, 5

PAX :snowing:

I love reading your posts, they are so clear and reasoned. You do such a great job of putting the Marian doctrines into perspective, and your scriptural support is delightful. I learn something new from you all the time! Thanks for your careful, consistent, and meticulous work.

 

[Leeann]

Question:
In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus ?

Tantum ergo:

Answer:

There is no such thing as Mary being ‘separate’ from Jesus such that she (or indeed any saint in heaven) is a focus, if you will, in and of herself/himself.

So Mary would not be standing ‘here’ and Jesus "there’ with the apostles saying to us, “Dudes, take your eyes from Mary here and turn to Jesus there”.

Mary is not ‘detached’ from Jesus as a semigod, demigod, hemidemisemisquaver god, what have you.

She is standing right there with Him–so close that she cannot be separated from Him, nor He separated from her (or indeed any other of the saints).

So if Mary is not ‘detached’ from Jesus, why is there a differentiation in the type of “worship” allowed to her…she must be “separate” in some regard to necessitate this….for if Mary is so closely attached to Jesus and vice versa as you claim….then when you are “venerating” Mary…you are “venerating” Jesus….it stands to reason also then, that when you are worshipping Jesus/GOD…you are worshipping Mary…yes?..as they cannot be separated.

Tantum ergo
Scripture tells us so.

Scripture tells us that we are all united, as true and faithful believers in spirit and are members of His Body and that no one can separate us from the love of God.
Scripture tells us about Jesus and how HE is above ALL things created…that EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess….on earth, in heaven….

tantum ergo
Why quibble with Scripture and attempt to paint a false picture or set up a ‘hypothetical situation’ that just can’t and won’t ever exist?

I’ll refer you to your own very first sentence of your post:

“There is no such thing as Mary being ‘separate’ from Jesus such that she (or indeed any saint in heaven) is a focus, if you will, in and of herself/himself.”

What about the all the shrines and statues….named for Mary, in honor of Mary……do they not qualify as being separate from Jesus in such that “she is the focus”.

Now who is attempting “to paint a false picture?”

 

[Leeann]

Good fella
The saints who are living members in the mystical body of Christ are as prayerfully active as the faithful members of the Church here on earth. Since the departed holy ones are alive and prayerfully active in Christ, united with us in the Spirit, we on earth invoke them in prayer. If the saints were actually “asleep”, separated from us in death, then there would be no point in asking them for their prayers. Not everything Jesus taught and did has been recorded in the Scriptures. The Gospels cover a span of about eighteen hours of our Lord’s three year ministry. And what has been handed down to us pertains to the fundamentals of faith and morals. The evangelists convey the essential truths of our faith which are necessary for us to know and observe.

The evangelists (the Apostles) were given, by Jesus, all authority when He commissioned and sent them out to baptize, heal and preach the gospel message of salvation for all mankind and when establishing the early church….all the necessary essential truths which were/ are necessary for the early believers/us to know and observe. They never mentioned “the Communion of Saints” as being a necessary essential truth…necessary for salvation. Whereby the Catholic Church teaches it is a necessary essential truth – for if a Catholic does not give their “sacred assent” as you call it below – in believing in this “dogma” – they are considered to be anathema. (see below comment also)

Good fella
Private devotion, such as invoking the departed saints, is more or less a sufficient exercise of faith. Although Catholics are obligated to give their sacred assent to the dogma of the Communion of Saints, they are not necessarily obligated to invoke the Saints beyond participation in the Sacred Liturgy of the Mass in a private capacity.

Catholics are obligated to believe in the dogma of the Communion of Saints in order to remain members of the Catholic Church….if they don’t… they are considered to be “anathema”. If they are anathema they cannot partake of the sacraments and therefore are not considered to be a part of “the Body of Christ”.
Not much of a choice is it – especially when they have been taught, by the Catholic Church, that if this is the case…. if they are outside of the Catholic Church……by not accepting the Catholic Church’s dogmas – including the Marian Dogmas their “salvation” may be at risk.

However, Jesus Himself never made this stipulation, nor did any of the Apostles when they went out to convey **the essential truths of the Christian faith **which are necessary for us to know and observe.

Good fella
And just because the Apostles haven’t explicitly instructed us in their occasional letters to ask the departed saints to pray for us…

Then why bother posting quotes from “their occasional letters” to support the Catholic teaching of “Communion of Saints”, as if they did instruct this…and now you state above that they haven’t explicitly instructed us……

Good fella
…it doesn’t necessarily mean that the early Christian community failed to practice this form of devotion.

But that doesn’t make it “correct”.

 

[Leeann]

Posted by Good Fella:
As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.
1 Corinthians 12-13, 26

Good fella
I see you’re still quibbling, Leeann.

Interesting your take on that…you can post anything you feel like, but if I disagree and respond or question what you say… it is considered “quibbling”…

Good fella
Paul’s understanding of the mystical body of Christ is that of the Catholic faith. All members of the Church are united in Christ by virtue of their common baptism. And death does not separate them from the love of Christ and his grace thereby separating some branches from other branches that are connected on the same vine. The above passage reveals that the departed saints or holy ones are as prayerfully active as the faithful on earth being a part of the same body of Christ as stewards of his grace through baptism. This passage indicates that Paul would have expected the faithful to invoke the departed saints or holy ones for their prayers, since he exhorted the faithful to pray for each other and he himself asked the Christian community to pray for him and all the disciples who were engaged in their ministries, unless you think Paul actually believed that the departed saints or holy ones were asleep for the time being, which obviously he didn’t. We need no exhortation explicitly put down in writing to understand what Paul must have believed and expected.

How convenient that must be for all of you.

Good fella
Again, all living members of the one body of Christ include the living on earth and the living in heaven by virtue of their common baptism. We all pray for one another on earth, while the saints or holy ones who have preceded us and have been made perfect in heaven pray for us who must still persevere in faith to reach our heavenly goal.

As I stated before – the verse you quoted in no way indicates that they/we are to pray to/through the saints that are in heaven.

Response Leeann:
Paul was obviously exhorting the believers of that time to pray for one another right there…to be watchful and in perseverance for all the saints……he wasn’t exhorting them to pray to/through the saints that had already gone before.

Good fella
Of course he was. I’m not denying that. Indeed, he wasn’t exhorting the faithful then and there to petition the departed saints. On this occasion he was strictly concerned with asking members of the Christian community to pray for him, encouraging the prayerful support we the faithful here on earth should give for one another.
But as I pointed out above, he would have expected and appreciated that the faithful invoke the help of the departed saints or holy ones to join in their prayers to God on his behalf.

I understand that this is what you believe based on the Catholic Church’s teachings and I thank you for taking the time to post it.

Good fella
The point is that all members of the mystical body of Christ serve as intercessors or factual mediators by praying together on behalf of others.

The point is, is that there is no evidence that this is an Apostolic teaching in regards to **praying to/through **them.

 

[Leeann]

Scripture posted by Good fella:

Indeed I shall continue to rejoice, for I know this will result in deliverance for me through your prayers and support from the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1, 19

Response Leeann:
Paul – rejoicing with the knowledge that the believers (on earth) were upholding him and his ministry in prayer.

But Paul did not encourage or teach that the early believers (us) should go to/through these saints (here you have used the term “holy ones”) in prayer.

Good fella
Again, it isn’t a question of whether Paul was exhorting the faithful to invoke the intercession of the departed saints or holy ones. The lesson we learn here is that Paul did not isolate himself from the Christian community but placed his hope in the prayers of others…

Yes…well that’s a lesson that most understand I’m sure, however it begs the question to be raised as to why you initially posted all those verses to support your claim that Paul somehow was exhorting the early believers (us) that the “Communion of Saints” is an acceptable teaching of the Catholic Church.

Good fella beginning paragraph Post 273 (a continuing response from the original postings and scriptures that were posted)The saints who are living members in the mystical body of Christ are as prayerfully active as the faithful members of the Church here on earth. Since the departed holy ones are alive and prayerfully active in Christ, united with us in the Spirit, we on earth invoke them in prayer.

Good fella
According to your reasoning, he should have been content with praying directly to the Father or Jesus in the privacy of his own room instead of asking other members of the Church to pray for him.
Either read my posts more carefully or refrain from deliberately creating a straw man argument.

hhhmm… …apparently you yourself haven’t been reading *my *posts carefully enough, or you would have realized that all my refutations with regards to the scripture verses….or portions of their “occasional letters” as you refer to them….have been pointing out how Paul not only requested the early believers to uphold him in prayer, but encouraged all the early members of the churches (us) to pray for one another also.

No matter how carefully I read your posts…your dialogue and the way you attempt to present your views appear duplicitious in nature.

 

[Leeann]

Rinnie

Okay leeann if you were going to ask anyone in this world to help pray with you. Who would you ask. Who do you think is any closer to the Jesus than his Mother.

Do you understand stand what the Pope meant now. He never said I will replace God with the Blessed Mother.

He was saying without her to pray with him and her prayers to help him he does not know who he would go to. The Pope understands that Jesus left us one other very important gift. HIS MOTHER. And he made her all of our Mother.

Who can you relate to more, and who besides God loves you anymore than your Mother.
Are you implying that the Pope relates more or better to Mary than to God…or that you do?

A Mother will walk through fire for her child. A Mother is so close to a child like no other. A mother carried you inside of her. IT gets no closer than that. A Mothers Love. You understand. We are her kids and she will do whatever she can to help us.

I can appreciate and have indeed received the wonderful love of a mother, as many others have here on earth. I can also appreciate and have experienced that same love from actually being a mother myself. However to compare that….to knowing and experiencing the love of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit and His presence within my spirit, my body, my mind, my whole being…well all I can say is that NOTHING “gets closer than that.”

 

[Good_Fella]

Maybe this could sum it up:

Hail Mary FULL OF GRACE, the LORD is WITH THEE! Think about it the Lord is with her. :newidea:

“Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our petitions in necessity, but deliver us from danger, O you alone pure and alone blessed.”
‘Sub Tuum Praesidium’, From Ryland’s Papyrus, Egypt (c.A.D. 250)

O Mary, God has given you the plenitude of all His benefits, to show us that all hope, all grace, all salvation come from your superabundance. Grant, therefore, O Mary, you who have found grace and have given us life, that through you we may approach your divine Son, O Blessed Mother of Salvation."
Ephraem of Syria (c. A,D. 370)

“Hail, O desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace; Hail, most venerable memory.”
Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily, 4:3 (ante A.D. 446)

“O Virgin all holy, he who has said of you all that is honorable and glorious has not sinned against the truth, but remains unequal to your merit. Look down upon us from above and be propitious to us. Lead us in peace and having brought us without shame to the throne of judgment, grant us a place at the right hand of your Son, that we may be borne off to heaven and sing with angels to the uncreated, consubstantial Trinity.”
Basil of Seleucia, ‘PG 85:452’ (ante A.D. 459)

“Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son.”
Theoteknos of Livias, Assumption 291 (ante A.D. 560)

O, how marvelous it is! She acts as a mediatrix between the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh, and becomes the Mother of the Creator."
Andrew of Crete, Homily 1 on Mary’s Nativity (ante A.D. 740)

“She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she surpassing the cherubim, exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God.”
John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity, 9 (ante A.D. 749)

“Let us entrust ourselves with all our soul’s affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin: let us all with all our strength beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints benefit by her favour those who have received deliverance.”
Ambrose Autpert, Assumption of the Virgin (ante A.D. 778)

“For she who brought forth the source of mercy, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, receiving from him all things, will and through him, grant the wishes of all.”
Paul the Deacon (ante A.D. 799)

“And how does this happen, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Luke 1, 43-45

PAX :winter:

 

[Tantum_ergo]

LeeAnn, you appear to be confused into thinking that because Mary and the saints are not separated from Jesus as part of the Body of Christ, that they are thus no longer individuals in themselves.

Mary did not ‘disappear’ into Jesus. She is present with Jesus, not separated from Him but not ‘swallowed up’ by Him.

I would recommend you opening up a separate thread regarding your query about ‘statues’. I hope you’re not veering into the iconoclastic heresy that would consider statues ‘idols’. . .

I also hope that you don’t think that having a statue of Mary (whom we do not worship) means that having that statue is ‘taking away’ from Jesus. That any focus on Mary (the Mother of Jesus, thus Jesus is the ultimate focus of any attention on Mary, who is acknowledged AS the mother of Jesus) is not ‘denying’ focus on Jesus.

I had thought we were hopefully finally making it clear that, for example, acknowledgement of St. Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles didn’t ‘take away’ from Jesus. That we could speak of and acknowledge that people, in their cooperation with God’s will, could be given credit for that cooperation without ‘taking away’ from Jesus. . .

 

[Leeann]

Tantum ergo
So, of all the ‘not-Jesus’ people on the earth or in the heavens, do you, LeeAnn, have a candidate whom you think is more qualified, or ‘closer’ to the Lord than His own Mother?

All that are “in HIM” and all those that “HE is in”…how much closer do you need to get?

Tantum
If any child had done something wrong, and was going to go ‘face his father’ (who certainly loves him and will not ‘reject’ him but may indeed require him to make restitution for the wrong), don’t you think any child would want “Mom” to come along? Remember, the father is the authority. He will listen to the mother, though, with respect as his wife and helper, as the mother of the child.

God is our Father, Mary is our Mother (yes, Scripture and the Church tell us so). God is perfectly just and he does not need to ‘listen’ to others but Scripture also tells us that, when approached by ‘the righteous’, God listened to them.

Who is more righteous among human beings than the Mother of God?

But Mary is not among human beings, she is in heaven.

Tantum
Did God decide to ‘stop listening to people?’ (Scripture certainly doesn’t support that idea).

Who said that it does?

Tantum
A huge emphasis is often made by some Protestants that we ‘need not fear’ God which is true in a sense but (as is so often the case) is so distorted in the practice that it actually becomes an untruth when carried as far as to imply that God ‘saves’ us in spite of ourselves or is like some cosmic ‘grandpa’ who only wants people to ‘enjoy’ and ‘love’ without any sort of responsibility or effort.

You are right in what you have stated above.

Pride propels all humans at times to extremes….some in the way you described above, where they loose all sight of the fact that God is Holy and Just and they forget that we will all have to stand before Him one day and be Judged….and then there are those who go to extremes in the other direction and believe that He is some cosmic ‘ogre’ who only wants people to be ‘scared’ and ‘guilty’ and ‘unworthy’ to approach His throne of Grace – even after they proclaim that they believe and have been baptized and trust and have faith in the efficacy of the blood sacrifice of His Son. This belief is so distorted that they have to devise practices in how to “navigate more gently” into His presence and place their hope and faith and focus in or through the efficacy of Mary’s or other special “Saint’s” prayers to do so. (both Mary and these “Saints” having their own special “righteousness” now afforded to them by these people, in order to make this practice viable in their reasoning).

Scripture posted by Tantum

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” as Scripture tells us. That so many have lost a sense of sin and a corresponding humility that is the prerequisite of our approaching God in the first place is tragic.

Oh I do agree with you on that Tantum…and that’s why I thank God for sending His only begotten Son…so that…whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life…and then those can approach God/Jesus…boldly…by the virtue of His blood sacrifice…yet still humbly in spirit – just as it states in:

Heb 4:

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need

And – to make reference to the “accountability” of every believer, we are still to enter boldly……

Heb 10:

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 and having a high priest over the house of God;
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

( just left these verses out to save room….continues on to say

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said,
Vengeance belongeth unto me,
I will recompense, saith the Lord.
And again,
The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

---

 

[Leeann]

guanophore
You are assuming that all these have to do with those saints who are still on earth. Paul acknowledged the Holy Ones that had gone on to be with the Lord also. They are separated from their bodies, but not their love of the disciples of Christ.

What does that specifically have to do with regards to praying to/through Mary…
the Apostles never taught or encouraged this practice and none of the scriptures quoted do either.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

LeeAnn, with respect, how can you say the apostles never taught this? You were not there for all their sermons, you are not aware of all the teachings which Jesus gave, nor of what teachings He specifically imparted to the apostles before His resurrection, etc. etc. etc.

YOU personally ‘don’t see this’ when you look at Scripture. . .but Scripture itself does not claim to contain ‘every apostolic teaching’ within it, especially not ‘explicitly’.

That doesn’t mean that it didn’t and doesn’t exist. Have you forgotten the Holy Spirit??

Ignoring Sacred Tradition and other historical evidence as well as the continued practice of this as shown in everything from the writings of the ECFs to the catacombs, and insistence that "if it isn’t laid out in KJV English in the Scriptures, forget it’ limits Christ to ‘what’s in the book according to LeeAnn’s personal interpretation’.

 

[Leeann]

Thread Topic: Just a friendly reminder

Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?​

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”
Question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, a friendly reminder. . .when one states that apostolic teaching ‘does not show’ X, one is obligated to give the source for that statement.

The topic is 'who would the apostles point to, Mary or Jesus".

But statements have been made by the original poster herself in regard to her own topic:

What does that specifically have to do with regards to praying to/through Mary…
the Apostles never taught or encouraged this practice and none of the scriptures quoted do either.

This is germane to the topic in that the implication by the OP is that praying to/through Mary as Catholics do is not taught by the apostles or noted in Scripture.

I repeat, where is the proof of this assertion?
Where is the proof that the apostles did not teach this? Where is the proof that prayer to Mary and the saints is NOT in Scripture (actually, we believe and have given notation that it IS).

If you’re going to argue as your main ‘prong’, LeeAnn, that prayer to Mary is verboten as it isn’t apostolic or Scripture, you need to provide proof. Right now, all we have is your ‘private interpretation’.

 

[Leeann]

Yes, a friendly reminder. . .when one states that apostolic teaching ‘does not show’ X, one is obligated to give the source for that statement.

The topic is 'who would the apostles point to, Mary or Jesus".

But statements have been made by the original poster herself in regard to her own topic:

This is germane to the topic in that the implication by the OP is that praying to/through Mary as Catholics do is not taught by the apostles or noted in Scripture.

I repeat, where is the proof of this assertion?
Where is the proof that the apostles did not teach this? Where is the proof that prayer to Mary and the saints is NOT in Scripture (actually, we believe and have given notation that it IS).

If you’re going to argue as your main ‘prong’, LeeAnn, that prayer to Mary is verboten as it isn’t apostolic or Scripture, you need to provide proof. Right now, all we have is your ‘private interpretation’.

I will answer this AND a previous post together here:

Tantum

LeeAnn, with respect, how can you say the apostles never taught this? You were not there for all their sermons, you are not aware of all the teachings which Jesus gave, nor of what teachings He specifically imparted to the apostles before His resurrection, etc. etc. etc.

YOU personally ‘don’t see this’ when you look at Scripture. . .but Scripture itself does not claim to contain ‘every apostolic teaching’ within it, especially not ‘explicitly’.

That doesn’t mean that it didn’t and doesn’t exist. Have you forgotten the Holy Spirit??

Ignoring Sacred Tradition and other historical evidence as well as the continued practice of this as shown in everything from the writings of the ECFs to the catacombs, and insistence that "if it isn’t laid out in KJV English in the Scriptures, forget it’ limits Christ to ‘what’s in the book according to LeeAnn’s personal interpretation’.

You’re **repeating **yourself Tantum…just go back and read through all the posts.

 

[Leeann]

Tantum

LeeAnn, you appear to be confused into thinking that because Mary and the saints are not separated from Jesus as part of the Body of Christ, that they are thus no longer individuals in themselves.

Mary did not ‘disappear’ into Jesus. She is present with Jesus, not separated from Him but not ‘swallowed up’ by Him.

I’m not confused at all with regards to Mary and the saints….but keep reasoning it out, I’m sure you’ll get there……

tantum
I would recommend you opening up a separate thread regarding your query about ‘statues’. I hope you’re not veering into the iconoclastic heresy that would consider statues ‘idols’. . .

I’ll rephrase it then…not as question, but as a statement and then that way it can stay right here in this thread in response to :

*Original Tantum
“There is no such thing as Mary being ‘separate’ from Jesus such that she (or indeed any saint in heaven) is a focus, if you will, in and of herself/himself.” *

Leeann’s question “rephrased”

That would then explain all the shrines and statues that are named…for Mary….in honor…of Mary….which would qualify as being “separate” from Jesus as the focus is on ….Mary….or these shrines and statues would be named …for Jesus….in honor of Jesus.

tantum
I had thought we were hopefully finally making it clear that, for example, acknowledgement of St. Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles didn’t ‘take away’ from Jesus. That we could speak of and acknowledge that people, in their cooperation with God’s will, could be given credit for that cooperation without ‘taking away’ from Jesus. . .

There was never any need to make that clear, no one was disputing that we can speak of and acknowledge that people, in their cooperation with God’s will, could be given credit for that cooperation without taking away from Jesus….that was just something that was pumped into dialogue in an attempt to divert from - the Pope “praying to/through” Mary – which is quite a leap from acknowledging that people can be given credit for cooperating with God’s Will without taking away from Jesus.

**That’s why it’s best to just stick to the “topic question” itself…and if you feel you have answered the question sufficiently by your own standards and viewpoints and understanding….then fine.

Thank you for taking the time to post.**

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Dear LeeAnn:

I repeat myself only because **you **continue to repeat **yourself **and I continue to try to respond to your repeated ‘questions’.

I note also that you continue to evade the question,

How do YOU know what the apostles taught about Mary SINCE you are limiting yourself to your personal interpretation of Scripture alone?

Where is the Scripture that says that all the apostles taught is contained in Scripture alone?

And where is the Scripture that says that the Catholics who claim to see that evidence in Scripture (as well as Sacred Tradition) are wrong, and that LeeAnn’s personal interpretation of Scripture as 'showing that the apostles never taught or practiced prayer to Mary or the saints" is the correct interpretation??

 

[Good_Daughter]

Leann,

I find that our dialogue gets “convoluted” very quickly. Despite the fact that our exchanges can make my head spin , I do appreciate your responses!

My point, simply stated, is that creation tends to reveal its creator. (A creator may be revealed in other ways, but creation remains an important source of revelation.) On the level of divine creation, Mary stands as a masterpiece, not of her own making, but a wonderful example of the work God desires to do in each of us. In that way, she serves to reveal more fully who He is.

Another thought for your consideration:

Our Lord was more than capable of coming to us directly. He needed the “yes” of no human to become flesh. Despite that, He chose specifically and intentionally to come to us through Mary.

Maybe the Pope is less interested in apostolic example than divine example.

 

[Leeann]

Tantum

Dear LeeAnn:

I repeat myself only because you continue to repeat yourself and I continue to try to respond to your repeated ‘questions’.

Hi Tantum -just for the record – you initiated discussion in the very beginning, it was your choice.

Tantum
I note also that you continue to evade the question,

Your question has been answered in all the posts and dialogues we and others have been posting Tantum - you just choose not to see that…whether it’s because I haven’t clearly stated myself, or whether you’ve run out of answers to my and other people’s responses, or whether you are beginning to second guess yourself with regards to some of the responses you have received from me or other posters….I don’t know, but it’s come full circle for you…and you start over again….

Tantum
How do YOU know what the apostles taught about Mary SINCE you are limiting yourself to your personal interpretation of Scripture alone?

I am not limiting myself to “my personal interpretation of Scripture alone”…that is how you like to see it and that is understandable, as this is what you have been taught by your Church, however,
I am not bound, nor is any true and faithful believer in Jesus Christ, bound by the Catholic Church’s teaching that they alone have the authority and the ability to interpret scripture. Only members of the Catholic are bound to believe that.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is a great “teacher” and “interpreter” and is alive and well and indwelling all those who put their belief and faith and trust where it should be…in God the Father/Jesus/The Holy Spirit…not in the Catholic Church itself and its own claim to be the only Church able to interpret God’s scriptures.

Tantum
Where is the Scripture that says that all the apostles taught is contained in Scripture alone?

I don’t believe anyone, myself included, has ever claimed that to be so, even the scripture below makes reference to the fact that the Apostles had taught the traditions both by word of mouth and by their epistle.

2Thess 2

12 But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth: 13 Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

The gospel had been preached and the traditions had been learned, either taught face to face or by the Apostle’s letter. Complete.

Tantum
And where is the Scripture that says that the Catholics who claim to see that evidence in Scripture (as well as Sacred Tradition) are wrong…….

In regards to the first portion of your question above - Christians are warned about following “the tradition of men” in Colossian 2: and exhorted to remember that He is above ALL powers, especially verses 9 and 10 and where we stand with Him. This verse would apply to any traditions or teachings that the Apostles themselves didn’t encourage or teach, as is evidenced by the lack of any mention whatsoever by them with regards to praying to/through anyone else other than Jesus/God.

1 For I would have you know, what manner of care I have for you and for them that are at Laodicea, and whosoever have not seen my face in the flesh: 2 That their hearts may be comforted, being instructed in charity, and unto all riches of fulness of understanding, unto the knowledge of the mystery of God the Father and of Christ Jesus: 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 Now this I say, that no man may deceive you by loftiness of words. 5 For though I be absent in body, yet in spirit I am with you; rejoicing, and beholding your order, and the steadfastness of your faith which is in Christ. 6 As therefore you have received Jesus Christ the Lord, walk ye in him; 7 Rooted and built up in him, and confirmed in the faith, as also you have learned, abounding in him in thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ: 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally; 10 And you are filled in him, who is the head of all principality and power:

Tantum
…and that LeeAnn’s personal interpretation of Scripture as 'showing that the apostles never taught or practiced prayer to Mary or the saints" is the correct interpretation??

I don’t believe there is any scripture pertaining to “Leeann’s personal interpretation as being the correct interpretation”….but then again, I’ve never claimed that. I’ve just stated what I know to be the truth, based on what scripture, which is the Holy Spirit inspired word of God, DOES say.

Thanks again for taking the time to post Tantum.

 

[Leeann]

Good daughter

Leann,

I find that our dialogue gets “convoluted” very quickly. Despite the fact that our exchanges can make my head spin , I do appreciate your responses!

I know! :hypno:
I do appreciate you taking the time to post your insights and thoughts, it’s good to see a variety of viewpoints and how they’re understood and expressed.

Good daughter
My point, simply stated, is that creation tends to reveal its creator. (A creator may be revealed in other ways, but creation remains an important source of revelation.) On the level of divine creation, Mary stands as a masterpiece, not of her own making, but a wonderful example of the work God desires to do in each of us. In that way, she serves to reveal more fully who He is.

Another thought for your consideration:

Our Lord was more than capable of coming to us directly. He needed the “yes” of no human to become flesh. Despite that, He chose specifically and intentionally to come to us through Mary.

Yes He did choose Mary and by the Catholic teachings, it is apparent that Mary herself had a “head start” on the rest of the human race, having already been born “without sin” . To take that into consideration and then to say that Mary is a “masterpiece” - a wonderful example of what God desires to do in each of us (which He obviously didn’t do in each of us with regards to “sin” right from the word go)….well it just doesn’t add up …if one is to believe what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary….she does not fall into the same category of being “human” when compared to you or me.

Good daughter
Maybe the Pope is less interested in apostolic example than divine example.

The Apostles, were also chosen by Jesus to establish HIS Church – and they were empowered with His full authority and with the Holy Spirit and with all the necessary information that would best enable both the early believers at that time as well as those who would believe later.

The Apostles, were in this respect a “divine example” to follow …unless of course you are attributing to Mary a different kind “divinity” – something that elevates her above being human, a normal creation of God’s, in which case, as I stated above, it would be futile for mere humans, including the Pope, to try and follow her example…unless of course he too was born without sin.

Paul points to himself as being an example to follow, and Peter points to Jesus as being an example – it is the Catholic Church with its developed Marian theology that points to Mary.

2 Thess 3

15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded; and if in any thing you be otherwise minded, this also God will reveal to you.16 Nevertheless whereunto we are come, that we be of the same mind, let us also continue in the same rule. 17 Be ye followers of me, brethren, and observe them who walk so as you have our model.

1 Peter 2:

21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps. 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. 23 Who, when he was reviled, did not revile: when he suffered, he threatened not: but delivered himself to him that judged him unjustly. 24 Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree: that we, being dead to sins, should live to justice: by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were as sheep going astray; but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls.