Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

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elijio said:
First, the article also says, ''With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

Note: '‘With the words of Bartolo’'

It doesn’t say that the pope said that or believes that.
Peace.
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Why did Bartolo say that? Didn’t he know he could turn to God?

Why did the pope quote it?
 
Of course the Pope knows he can turn to God. . .and he also knows that in turning to say a prayer to Mary (which, be it noted, was opened with the trinitarian formula of offering said prayer to Mary “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”) he is by no means excluding God, not turning to God, ignoring God ‘in lieu of’ Mary, etc.

It simply cannot be emphasized enough, it seems, that in offering prayer to the saints Christians are always praying with God as the ultimate focus of those prayers. . .

In other words, instead of wrongly insisting that an individual (alone) approaches God (and nobody else is permitted, not even those explicitly said in Scripture to be part of His Body, not even though in striving for heaven this is exactly what all Christians hope to achieve ourselves), the Catholic follows Scripture by UNITING his or her prayer to God (again, note that all prayers have God as their ultimate aim) along WITH the saints and angels etc.

IOW, Catholics are complete in their worship as Christ Himself taught us, including ‘all’ the Body of Christ in any individual offering of prayer to God with, in, and through that Body.
 
elijio said:
It doesn’t say that the pope said that or believes that. It says he said it ‘‘With the words of Bartolo’’. It’s a quote. The article explains that the prayer the pope read was **’‘a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) **’’ which is the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary. They are not the words of Pope Benedict XVI or are they in any of the speeches I have found.
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You raise an important issue, elijio. Namely saying:
  • “If you will not help us” etc.
is different than saying:
  • "Blessed Bartolo Longo said to Mary ‘If you will not help us’ " etc.
So the question is, which was it? I believe it was the former (i.e. what we have all been assuming he said). I’m basing this on a short description I found at catholicnewsnet.com/Nov08.html

Italy, Pompeii: The Holy Father placed the world in the hands of the Blessed Mother during his visit to Pompeii as his said, “We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to Your heart; if You will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of Your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.” He then left the Madonna a golden rose. Pompeii, you will recall, was the site of an incredible volcanic eruption in 79 AD that caused terrible devastation to that city, as the United States has been the site of severe devastation from nature today.
 
I was researching Bartolo Longo. I don’t doubt at all his sincere conversion but it is definitely a clash between scripture and tradition.

catholictradition.org/Children/pompeii.htm

One day in October 1872, while he paused in the fields near Pompeii, he began to reflect on his previous consecration as a priest of Satan. He tells us:
I thought that perhaps as the priesthood of Christ is for eternity, so also the priesthood of Satan is for eternity. So, despite my repentance, I thought that I was still consecrated to Satan, and that I am still his slave and property as he awaits me in Hell. As I pondered over my condition, I experienced a deep sense of despair and almost committed suicide. Then I heard an echo in my ear of the voice of Friar Alberto repeating the words of the Blessed Virgin Mary:
**“One who propagates my Rosary shall be saved.” **These words certainly brought an illumination to my soul. Falling to my knees, I exclaimed: “If your words are true that he who propagates your Rosary will be saved, I shall reach salvation because I shall not leave this earth without propagating your Rosary.” Like an answer to my promise, the little bell of the parish church of Pompeii rang out, inviting the people to pray the Angelus. This incident was like a signature to my firm decision.
Without delay, Bartolo organized a parish mission and invited a group of priests to speak about devotion to the Holy Rosary.

This is scripture:

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!
 
And why did the rosary come into practice? It was set forth as a tool of prayer in which, in its original forms, a person focused on the Our Father, the "angelic salutation’, and the Glory Be as an ‘antidote’ to the Albigensian heresies which sought to deny Christ. By the use of the Our Father and of the words of the angel announcing to Mary that she had been chosen to be mother to the Son of God, the people of that time were given the tools which confirmed in them the truth of Christian teaching–Christ is son of God and son of Mary.

IOW, this wasn’t some ‘glorification’ dreamed up by Mary–or the devil in disguise–to confuse people, but a private revelation given to those who were seeking God’s help against His foes. . .a private relevation given, as is so often, not by God Himself but by His angels or saints whom He sends to us. . .a private revelation which was given with the intention that it could and should be made public because of the help which God intended it to give, but made privately in order that no one be ‘forced’ to recite it under it being made a dogmatic order. In fact, had it come even as a private relevation to a person but given by the hand of Jesus, that could have been construed as Christ ‘forcing’ the prayer onto all, something which He did not do on earth and certainly will not do in heaven.
 
The key to the Scripture in Galatians is that it refers to a teaching which is ‘contradictory’ to the teachings of Christ.

Since the rosary is not contradictory to those teachings, it is not ‘against’ the teachings, therefore it is not to be considered as ‘against the gospel.’

Now other things which ARE against the gospel are many and sundry. . . but are not taught by Catholics. By the process of elimination I’m sure you understand to what groups I’m referring as teaching ‘contradictory’ and man-made gospels. . .😃
 
ron77nyc said:
I was researching Bartolo Longo. I don’t doubt at all his sincere conversion but it is definitely a clash between scripture and tradition.

catholictradition.org/Children/pompeii.htm

One day in October 1872, while he paused in the fields near Pompeii, he began to reflect on his previous consecration as a priest of Satan. He tells us:
I thought that perhaps as the priesthood of Christ is for eternity, so also the priesthood of Satan is for eternity. So, despite my repentance, I thought that I was still consecrated to Satan, and that I am still his slave and property as he awaits me in Hell. As I pondered over my condition, I experienced a deep sense of despair and almost committed suicide. Then I heard an echo in my ear of the voice of Friar Alberto repeating the words of the Blessed Virgin Mary:
**“One who propagates my Rosary shall be saved.” **These words certainly brought an illumination to my soul. Falling to my knees, I exclaimed: “If your words are true that he who propagates your Rosary will be saved, I shall reach salvation because I shall not leave this earth without propagating your Rosary.” Like an answer to my promise, the little bell of the parish church of Pompeii rang out, inviting the people to pray the Angelus. This incident was like a signature to my firm decision.
Without delay, Bartolo organized a parish mission and invited a group of priests to speak about devotion to the Holy Rosary.

This is scripture:

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!
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Ron,

I think what you just did, is to explain the reason (or at least a possible reason) that Pope Benedict chose not to quote that portion of Bartolo’s writings.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
The key to the Scripture in Galatians is that it refers to a teaching which is ‘contradictory’ to the teachings of Christ.

Since the rosary is not contradictory to those teachings, it is not ‘against’ the teachings, therefore it is not to be considered as ‘against the gospel.’

Now other things which ARE against the gospel are many and sundry. . . but are not taught by Catholics. By the process of elimination I’m sure you understand to what groups I’m referring as teaching ‘contradictory’ and man-made gospels. . .😃
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I see what you mean. We will know them by their fruit. Many who quote the bible are in conflict with the Holy Spirit. Many who don’t know the bible are in harmony with the Holy Spirit.
 
ron77nyc said:
I was researching Bartolo Longo. I don’t doubt at all his sincere conversion but it is definitely a clash between scripture and tradition.

catholictradition.org/Children/pompeii.htm

One day in October 1872, while he paused in the fields near Pompeii, he began to reflect on his previous consecration as a priest of Satan. He tells us:
I thought that perhaps as the priesthood of Christ is for eternity, so also the priesthood of Satan is for eternity. So, despite my repentance, I thought that I was still consecrated to Satan, and that I am still his slave and property as he awaits me in Hell. As I pondered over my condition, I experienced a deep sense of despair and almost committed suicide. Then I heard an echo in my ear of the voice of Friar Alberto repeating the words of the Blessed Virgin Mary:
**“One who propagates my Rosary shall be saved.” **
Click to expand...
From wikipedia:
He remembered what Father Alberto had told him - that the Virgin Mary had told Saint Dominic, “he who propagates my Rosary will be saved.”
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Rather interesting how rumors can get started. As best as I can tell, Blessed Bartolo (or Friar Alberto rather) is here referring to one of the “15 Rosary Promises”.

No need to be embarrassed if you’ve never heard of them before. You see, the Dominican monk Alanus de Rupe tells us that the Blessed Virgin Mary made these 15 promises to St. Dominic. Interesting thing is that Alanus was not a companion of St. Dominic – in fact, St. Dominic died in 1221, whereas Alanus lived in the 15th century. As near as I can tell, Alanus de Rupe claimed to have had a vision (or some other kind of revelation) which revealed to him that St. Dominic had a vision of Mary, in which she made these 15 promises to him.

Secondly, the promise that Blessed Bartolo was (presumably?) referring to actually say “All those who propagate the holy rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities”, not “One who propagates my Rosary shall be saved.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_rosary_promises
 
elijio said:
I would like to share something with you about this and maybe you can help. I have read the article you posted from zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

The problem with the article is that it conflicts with your question and the actual speeches that I found in the Vatican’s website.

First, the article also says, ''With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

Note: '‘With the words of Bartolo’'

It doesn’t say that the pope said that or believes that. It says he said it ‘‘With the words of Bartolo’’. It’s a quote. The article explains that the prayer the pope read was **’‘a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) **’’ which is the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary. They are not the words of Pope Benedict XVI or are they in any of the speeches I have found.

The speech Pope Benedict XVI gives on October 19, 2008 here: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/october/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20081019_pompei_en.html

and also here : vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20081019_pompei_en.html

Can you get me the actual speech that the article mentions? I can’t find it anywhere.

Peace.
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Bartolo’s words must be qualified. And I pointed this out in the original thread: He means that none of the Saints in heaven could possibly help us with their intercessory prayers if by any chance Jesus denied his mother the power to intercede for us as our human advocate in and through Christ. The OP is making “much ado about nothing” taking Bartolo’s words entirely out of context.

PAX :harp:
 
Peter_J said:
Saying that we have the Bible to judge the Pope’s ex cathedra statements is like saying the we have the Gospel of Matthew to judge the Epistle to the Hebrews.

Once we agree that the Epistle to the Hebrews is part of Sacred Scripture, we automatically know that it isn’t in conflict with any book of the Bible.

Same with a papal ex cathedra statement.
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If only that were true.
 
diggingdeeper said:
I would still like someone to answer that question–What would be the signs that someone was actually worshipping Mary?
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Perhaps you should read what the catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about it:

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation,** depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it**."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514
 
Good_Fella said:
Then how do you explain the major differences in essential doctrines among the countless conflicting Protestant denominations? The one Spirit of truth cannot possibly be guiding them in their private interpretations of Scripture and be the cause of division. Let us not presuppose that there is more than one Spirit. But there are many fallen angels roaming about in our midst. Martin Luther, John Calvin, Zwingli, etc. each had his own guiding demon. 😉

The Church’s invocation of Mary as co-Redemptrix is biblical.

“And you yourself a sword will pierce, ‘so that’ the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2, 35

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of the body, which is the church.
Colossians 1, 24

In her flesh Mary filled up what was lacking in the afflictions of Christ by her spiritual suffering for the sake of our salvation. The Gospel of Luke reveals that Mary, by virtue of her Divine Maternity, had immersed herself in Christ’s redemptive sacrifice. But she has no redemptive role of her own neither “with” nor “under” Christ. She acts “in” and “through” Christ in God’s plan of salvation. Her role is subordinate to that of Christ’s, but in itself it is not redemptive. Only Christ could have redeemed the world for, unlike Mary, he is in no need of redemption.

Still Mary is presented as significantly participating in our Lord’s redemptive sacrifice through the spiritual sufferings she would have to endure on account of the love she has for her divine Son, who terribly suffered and died for our salvation. In the faithful spirit of Abraham she willingly offered her Son back to the Father in the temple for our salvation. God chose no path other than the Incarnation to save us from sin. Hence, the Catholic Church does not teach that Mary’s role is co-redemptive, for she has no power to redeem and save the world. She has contributed to the redemption that Christ alone has achieved by helping our Lord save souls in like manner of the Apostles which calls for suffering together with our Lord and exemplified by him. By our baptism, we are called to immerse our acts in those of our Lord and Master in the work of salvation.

Jesus told his apostles at the Last Supper: “What I have done for you, so you must also do for each other.” Although we are saved strictly by the merits of Christ, our Lord desires that we assist him in his great sacrificial Act in the salvation of souls now that he alone has redeemed the world. Mary collaborates with God in his plan of salvation, and she is more closely associated with Jesus than any other of his disciples by virtue of her Divine Maternity. She did help redeem the world, without having to redeem the world herself together with Christ, by faithfully and lovingly obeying the will of God in the Annunciation. The Father spared Isaac, but not Jesus. Mary had to suffer the agony of witnessing the cruel death of her only beloved Son. She suffered so that Christ ‘would’ redeem us. But our Lord could have redeemed us without Mary’s participation if his heavenly Father had not willed that His Only-begotten Son be “made of a woman”.

The unbiblical Protestant concepts Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, and Sola Christu emerged from the deep pit. :yup:

Then the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. It was given the ‘key’ for the passage to the abyss.
Revelation 9, 1

PAX :harp:

You have misunderstood Paul’s meaning and have as well revealed that this notion of Mary is attached to people who, though intellectually understanding the concept of redemption, have never entered into the personal experience of it. No one who has expereinced that salvation that is in Christ alone through faith would EVER ascribe redemptive qualities to another human. This “doctrine of demons”, to use Paul’s phrase, is exposed for what it is.
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ron77nyc said:
Why did Bartolo say that? Didn’t he know he could turn to God?

Why did the pope quote it?
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I don’t know. I’m asking anyone to get me the entire speech so I can put it in proper context. You know, it’s like us Catholics take the fullness of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition together as a whole instead of jumping around the Bible or news articles to make them appear to say what we would like it to say.

Sometime protestants should ask us what we believe rather than tell us what they think we believe.

Not one protestant can tell me why there are over 40,000 protestant denominations in the U.S. who can’t agree on anything other than Catholics are wrong…lol! I guess there are over 40,000 Holy Spirit’s guiding everyone in different directions? Every protestant has their own personal Holy Spirit?

Peace.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Perhaps you should read what the catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about it:

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation,** depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it**."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514
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That quote is not objectionable to me, except that Mary is not the mother of men. But you have not answered my question, nor does the quote. Could you please do that? Thanks.
 
elijio said:
Sometime protestants should ask us what we believe rather than tell us what they think we believe.
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Well said… 😃
Not one protestant can tell me why there are over 40,000 protestant denominations in the U.S. who can’t agree on anything other than Catholics are wrong…lol! I guess there are over 40,000 Holy Spirit’s guiding everyone in different directions? Every protestant has their own personal Holy Spirit?
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Well, actually contemporary sources place the number at closer to 30,000…but hey, whats 10,000 +/- in the grander scheme of things? I agree with you… But my question would rather be " do they each and every one have their own private demon misleading them down the primrose path…"?
Peace.
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And unto you as well!!
 
diggingdeeper said:
That quote is not objectionable to me, except that Mary is not the mother of men. But you have not answered my question, nor does the quote. Could you please do that? Thanks.
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The mother of Christian men.

Rev 12

17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

If someone equated Mary with God, that would be a sign of worship.

Catholics don’t do that, of course.
 
diggingdeeper,
You do realize you are pitting your interpretation or teaching of Scripture against the Catholic Church who taught, protected and penned the Bible don’t you? As history has shown, as man has brought flawed human nature, pride and ego into determining what Scripture means, there is no stopping that carnage. Thousands of denominations, all with different teaching, tradition, doctrine and interpretation of Scripture later just prove that there has to be an authorative interpreter of Scripture. I am sorry that you have been taught to believe contrary to what we are telling you, but, the Catholic Church is THE CHURCH that Jesus established the way He wanted to and IS guiding and protecting His Church from error just as He promised He would. He said those words, we didn’t. It didn’t give His Authority to all men or promise to guide and protect each and every human on his/her spiritual journey. He only gave His Authority and His promise to guide and protect to the Apostles. He gave them His Authority to bind and to loose because He knew that the Apostles would have to found His Church as well as teach the successors who would continue building His Church, and so forth. Catholics BELIEVE what Jesus said. We always have.

The Catholic Church has condemend heresy all through the centuries. I am sure you would agree that Arianism was something that needed to be denied. Luther and his buddies needed to be denied - they started teaching heresy.

Jesus has protected His Church and kept His teaching from error. Man can error. Do you think Jesus can? Did He set up the Church and then couldn’t guide it? No wrath for going off the rails?

I really was hoping that you were going to be open. Everything we are telling you CAN be verified by you by searching history. We have documented it for ALL Christians. Only the Catholic Church has the richness, the fullness of Jesus’ Deposit of Faith. You just don’t know it.

I hope you stick around long enough to gain a better understanding of Jesus’ Church. I have to ask you to PLEASE do it with a soft, open heart, without bias, if you can. I know that would have to be difficult. You have your own ownership of what you know, but you just haven’t been taught the complete fullness and history of the Church or the meaning and context that the Church has always understood from the mouth of Jesus Himself. No one else can give that to you. Please understand that.
 
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