Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

Leeann,

I believe you are correct (see post #422).

But just as a general comment, it is a very good idea to check these things out carefully. Recall when the Pope said:

… he [emperor Manuel II Paleologus] addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached”.

In that case, the Pope was saying The emperor said such-and-such, but a great many people jumped to the conclusion that Benedict himself was saying such-and-such.

The main difference being, that the Pope was “leading” as he read out the prayer…he wasn’t just ‘quoting’ or simply clearly ‘making reference too’ what another person said…he was reading out the supplication and “leading” the people, not just referring them to Longo’s words as a reference.

 

[AshleyBelle]

LOL Jharek!!!

 

[AshleyBelle]

Show me one verse where we are commanded to honor Mary.

“Honor thy Father and Mother” ?

 

[diggingdeeper]

The pope is not the vicar of Christ. Is this your best answer when confronted with evidences that the pope is in error?

Wikipedia: The title Vicar of Christ came into use in the fifth and sixth centuries. The Christian Church prior to Constantine reserved the titles, Vicar of Christ and Vicar of the Lord exclusively for the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to His Apostles to complete their training (John 16:12-15). Tertullian demonstrates this fact in the following quotes:

“ Grant, then, that all have erred; that the apostle was mistaken in giving his testimony; that the Holy Ghost … He, the Steward of God, the Vicar of Christ …[1] ”
“ For what kind of (supposition) is it, that, while the devil is always operating and adding daily to the ingenuities of iniquity, the work of God should either have ceased, or else have desisted from advancing? whereas the reason why the Lord sent the Paraclete was, that, since human mediocrity was unable to take in all things at once, discipline should, little by little, be directed, and ordained, and carried on to perfection, by that Vicar of the Lord, the Holy Spirit.[2]

Pope Gelasius I robbed the term from its common use referring to the Holy Spirit and decided to give it to himself! ‘Vicar’ means representative. The pope is the vicar of the organization known as The Roman Catholic Church. When he speaks truth that is consistent with the word of God, he speaks real truth. When he does not, he speaks error.

 

[Peter_J]

The main difference being, that the Pope was “leading” as he read out the prayer…he wasn’t just ‘quoting’ or simply clearly ‘making reference too’ what another person said…he was reading out the supplication and “leading” the people, not just referring them to Longo’s words as a reference.

Right. He didn’t say "Blessed Barolo said to Mary 'If you ’ " etc.

 

[Peter_J]

Show me one verse where we are commanded to honor Mary.

I think a better way to put the question would be, Show me one verse which indicates that we are supposed to honor Mary.

A number of different arguments could be put forward here. The most straight-forward being “All generations shall call me blessed”, from Luke’s Gospel.

 

[Peter_J]

When he speaks truth that is consistent with the word of God, he speaks real truth. When he does not, he speaks error.

Imagine that!

 

[guanophore]

Let me give those lenses a wipe, guanophore, and help clarify that you interpret the Scriptures in the light of what the Catholic Magisterium says is the Apostolic Teaching, since the Apostles aren’t physically teaching it on earth these days, having a pressing engagement elsewhere.

That brings things into a bit sharper focus.

I disagree. I think the Apostles have no more pressing engagement than the care of the flock. I believe that they watch, pray, and support the Church until we are all united with them in Heaven.

If I cannot trust Jesus to keep His word to the Church, I have no basis for my faith at all. If He did not, our could not send His Spirit who would lead them into all truth, or if He did not keep His promise to to leave us orphaned, then, to use the words of Bartolo, “where else can I turn”? He has the words of eternal life! I believe that He is able to preserve His word, and that it does not go out void, but accomplishes all that He intends.

However, I was a skeptic about all this. I had to study historical theology and read the fathers and the councils before I would believe that the teachings of today are the same.

 

[guanophore]

I would like to thank them, too, as I have learned a great deal from my separated brethren, and their participation here has challenged me to grow in knowlege and faith.

 

[Non_Serviam]

I disagree. I think the Apostles have no more pressing engagement than the care of the flock. I believe that they watch, pray, and support the Church until we are all united with them in Heaven.

If I cannot trust Jesus to keep His word to the Church, I have no basis for my faith at all. If He did not, our could not send His Spirit who would lead them into all truth, or if He did not keep His promise to to leave us orphaned, then, to use the words of Bartolo, “where else can I turn”? He has the words of eternal life! I believe that He is able to preserve His word, and that it does not go out void, but accomplishes all that He intends.

However, I was a skeptic about all this. I had to study historical theology and read the fathers and the councils before I would believe that the teachings of today are the same.

I think you’ll agree that when God called them into His presence in Heaven that took precedence over teaching on earth.

To clarify I wasn’t pronouncing as to the truth or falsity of what you received from the Catholic church-that’s the point of our discussion-I was simply pointing out that you haven’t received Apostolic teaching directly from an Apostle. You’ve received what is called Apostolic teaching from the current Magisterium of the Church. You then made efforts to confirm that teaching.

There are other bodies that also claim to be the possessors of Apostolic teaching-someone has to be wrong. Since the Apostles aren’t here today to sort things out, one has to choose a source of truth as you’ve done. That’s why I like to be precise about things-the fewer assumptions, the fewer logical errors. I’m sure the adherents of other claimants to Apostolic truth would also state that they would feel betrayed by Jesus if their “truth” were shown to be wrong-in reality it doesn’t reflect on Jesus but rather on those who made the incorrect claim to teach “truth” to those people.

I’m glad to hear that you’ve made efforts to verify it to your own satisfaction as it likely helps you understand why I feel the need to do the same thing.

 

[Good_Fella]

I’d like to share with you what I mean in this last sentence of my last reply. When my mother was dying of terminal cancer, I beseeched Our Lady to intercede and ask God to miraculously cure her, for medical science could provide no cure. My mother died seven weeks after she was hospitalized and four weeks after her disease was diagnosed (Lymphoma Meningitis). A rare and untreatable disease that left her physical features virtually beyond recognition. I passed by my mother three times in her temporary ward one day before I eventually recognized her. That’s how bad her condition was. Despite my “Hail Mary” she died, but through my prayers to our Blessed Mother I received the grace of faith and hope. Looking back, I don’t believe Mary asked Jesus to cure my mother. She must have asked him to strengthen me in my distress, which our Lord did. Mary does not presume to know what the will of God is in temporal matters and has perfect faith in divine providence. Yet she does know that He will not deny his grace. She must have said to Jesus: “The mother of your disciple is dying. Please strengthen him in his faith and hope in his moment of trial.” It was not a matter of presumption on Mary’s part to know that her divine Son would bestow the graces I needed to help victoriously overcome this trial of faith. Once I received these signal graces, it was up to me to accept them by the power of my will with the continuing help of Mary’s prayers.

Now, I could have prayed directly to God the Father or to the Son to receive the graces through the Holy Spirit, which I had. But I mustn’t discount the intercessory prayers of Mary which were joined with mine in and through Christ to the Father. I could very well have received the graces I needed to fortify my faith and hope without supplicating our Blessed Mother for assistance. But for some mysterious reason Jesus and the Apostles have asked us to pray for others which implies that our own prayers are less efficient when said apart from other members of the Body of Christ. Why did Paul ask others to pray for him just as I had asked Mary to pray for me? And why did he exhort us to pray for each other as members of the one mystical Body of Christ? Surely, Paul prayed to God on his own behalf in the privacy of his room and could have left it at that expecting us to do the same.

For some ineffable reason God desires that we pray for each other and ask each other for our prayers for the graces and favours we need and only God can grant. When we ask someone to pray for us, we are asking her to pray to God with us. Our prayers to God are joined with others which thereby become more effective in the measure of grace each of us have received as stewards of God’s grace. The channel of the graces which we receive is somehow widened allowing them to flow faster and stronger. I believe that the grace of my reversion to the Catholic faith after many years of abstention is due to the prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints in heaven together with those of devout relatives of mine who are nuns. I certainly did not pray for this free gift of grace. I unexpectedly received it all of a sudden one day in my early adulthood.

I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1 Corinthians 9, 22

PAX :harp:

 

[Leeann]

Good fella
Now, I could have prayed directly to God the Father or to the Son to receive the graces through the Holy Spirit, which I had. But I mustn’t discount the intercessory prayers of Mary which were joined with mine in and through Christ to the Father. I could very well have received the graces I needed to fortify my faith and hope without supplicating our Blessed Mother for assistance. But for some mysterious reason Jesus and the Apostles have asked us to pray for others which implies that our own prayers are less efficient when said apart from other members of the Body of Christ.

It is interesting that you have come by this opinion, that our individual prayers are less efficient than prayers offered with other believers or than prayers of support from other believers on our behalf.
They are different types of prayer….individual and intercessory by others, but one cannot say that one is better than the other in their “efficiency”…the efficiency is not based in the type of prayer…but in HIS grace and will.
Jesus indicated that they were different – as He taught the following while He walked among the people, that individual prayer was extremely important and that it would be answered.

Matthew 6
*6 But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee. *7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. 8 Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him.

The Apostles exhorted the early believers to uphold one another in prayer, knowing that the Holy Spirit would be leading them and directing them:

**Romans 8:**2
6 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts, knoweth what the Spirit desireth; because he asketh for the saints according to God. 28 And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints.

But the Apostles also encouraged the early believers to go boldly before His throne of Grace, assured by the efficacy of His blood sacrifice for each one individually, based on their faith –individually not collectively – and based on His grace and His will.

Good fella
Why did Paul ask others to pray for him just as I had asked Mary to pray for me? And why did he exhort us to pray for each other as members of the one mystical Body of Christ?

Why shouldn’t Paul ask others to pray for him, he knew that they had the Holy Spirit directing them and that God would hear them.
Paul very clearly exhorted and encouraged all the believers to continue in prayer constantly and to uphold one another in prayer, but he never encouraged them to pray to/through those who were in heaven….then or later on….but to each other right there amongst themselves (ourselves).

Good Fella
Surely, Paul prayed to God on his own behalf in the privacy of his room and could have left it at that expecting us to do the same.

Paul was probably acknowledging Jesus’ words, where He also said:

Matthew 18
19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

But Jesus didn’t say that one was more “efficient” than the other or that they (we)were to pray to/through anyone other than in HIS name.

Good fella
For some ineffable reason God desires that we pray for each other and ask each other for our prayers for the graces and favours we need and only God can grant. When we ask someone to pray for us, we are asking her to pray to God with us.

As to the reason being “ineffable”….???..for God desiring that we pray for each other doesn’t seem too hard to understand, as He wants us to love and care and to support one another.

Good fella
Our prayers to God are joined with others which thereby become more effective in the measure of grace each of us have received as stewards of God’s grace. The channel of the graces which we receive is somehow widened allowing them to flow faster and stronger.

That again would be your own opinion, based on your experience I suppose……while I have experienced answered prayer that other fellow believers have offered on my behalf, I have also had many of my individual prayers, ones that have been offered directly to God my Father, in Jesus’ name – answered powerfully and quickly, without any other prayers being offered on my behalf by other believers and without me going to/through any saint that is in heaven.

 

[guanophore]

I think you’ll agree that when God called them into His presence in Heaven that took precedence over teaching on earth.

While I will agree that for them to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, I am not sure that their teaching role has changed.

To clarify I wasn’t pronouncing as to the truth or falsity of what you received from the Catholic church-that’s the point of our discussion-I was simply pointing out that you haven’t received Apostolic teaching directly from an Apostle.

Yes, this is true, however irrelevant. God is able to preserve His word, and has done so. The Spirit enabled the Apostles to commit the faith to faithful men, who were able to teach others also. The Spirit guided these men into all truth,and empowered them to shepherd and feed the flock of God, just as Jesus promised. He did not leave us orphaned, but has come to us in those He appointed as overseers.

He gives special blessings to those of us that did not get to sit at His feet:

John 20:29
29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.”

The successors of the Apostles could only carry His authority by His grace:

Luke 10:16

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

You’ve received what is called Apostolic teaching from the current Magisterium of the Church. You then made efforts to confirm that teaching.

I suppose you could say this, in a round about way. I received most of the Apostolic Teaching at a Protestant Seminary. I did not find out till later that it came from the Catholic Magesterium.

There are other bodies that also claim to be the possessors of Apostolic teaching-someone has to be wrong. Since the Apostles aren't here today to sort things out, one has to choose a source of truth as you've done. That's why I like to be precise about things-the fewer assumptions, the fewer logical errors. I'm sure the adherents of other claimants to Apostolic truth would also state that they would feel betrayed by Jesus if their "truth" were shown to be wrong-in reality it doesn't reflect on Jesus but rather on those who made the incorrect claim to teach "truth" to those people.

Yes.

I'm glad to hear that you've made efforts to verify it to your own satisfaction as it likely helps you understand why I feel the need to do the same thing. :)

Absolutely!

 

[guanophore]

   but one cannot say that one is better than the other in their “efficiency”…the efficiency is not based in the type of prayer…but in HIS grace and will.

I think it is both. If He wants certain prayers to be corporate, such as the Lord’s prayer (it is given in the plural) then it is most efficacious to pray it that way.

The Apostles exhorted the early believers to uphold one another in prayer, knowing that the Holy Spirit would be leading them and directing them:

You say things like this, which shows that you understand the principles of intercession, yet for some unfathomable reason, you cannot seem to apply this principle to those who have gone on before us in faith. The HS does not stop leading and directing the saints, just because they are no longer on earth.

Why shouldn’t Paul ask others to pray for him, he knew that they had the Holy Spirit directing them and that God would hear them.
Paul very clearly exhorted and encouraged all the believers to continue in prayer constantly and to uphold one another in prayer,

Why would we think that those who have been united with HIm in heaven would be excluded?

but he never encouraged them to pray to/through those who were in heaven….then or later on….but to each other right there amongst themselves (ourselves).

I am sure it would not occur to him. Paul was there. He knew the saints were alive in heaven. This is the doctrine of the communion of saints.

But Jesus didn’t say that one was more “efficient” than the other or that they (we)were to pray to/through anyone other than in HIS name.

It would be a mistake to think that the saints do not pray “in HIs name” or that those of us requesting their intercession do not pray “in HIs name”.
Leeann;4750710 [COLOR="Purple":

As to the reason being “ineffable”….???..for God desiring that we pray for each other doesn’t seem too hard to understand, as He wants us to love and care and to support one another.

Indeed.

And death does not separate us from this Love.
Leeann;4750710 [COLOR="Purple":

That again would be your own opinion, based on your experience I suppose……while I have experienced answered prayer that other fellow believers have offered on my behalf, I have also had many of my individual prayers, ones that have been offered directly to God my Father, in Jesus’ name – answered powerfully and quickly, without any other prayers being offered on my behalf by other believers and without me going to/through any saint that is in heaven.

God meets us where we are. If you have not been able to commune with the members of the heavenly family that have passed on, perhaps you are not ready.

 

[Leeann]

guanophore
You say things like this, which shows that you understand the principles of intercession, yet for some unfathomable reason, you cannot seem to apply this principle to those who have gone on before us in faith. The HS does not stop leading and directing the saints, just because they are no longer on earth.

The “unfathomable reason” would be that I don’t believe in the Catholic Church’s teachings with regards to the “communion of the saints”.
Who says the HS stops leading and directing the saints in heaven?
That is not the same as the early believers/us initiating prayer to/through them.

guanophore
Why would we think that those who have been united with HIm in heaven would be excluded?

Why would we think that those who are in heaven would be included?

guanophore

**Quote:
*Originally Posted by Leeann ***
but he never encouraged them to pray to/through those who were in heaven….then or later on….but to each other right there amongst themselves (ourselves).

I am sure it would not occur to him. Paul was there. He knew the saints were alive in heaven. This is the doctrine of the communion of saints.

I am sure it would not occur to him either. He knew the saints were alive in heaven yet he never promulgated the “doctrine of the communion of saints”….he encouraged the believers to pray for one another and to uplift him in prayer also.The doctrine of the communion of saints is what the Catholic Church teaches.

guanophore

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeannAs to the reason being “ineffable”….???..for God desiring that we pray for each other doesn’t seem too hard to understand, as He wants us to love and care and to support one another.

Indeed.

And death does not separate us from this Love.

Indeed. In fact Love is why Jesus shed His blood for us and tells us that we are to come to Him and why the Apostles always pointed to Jesus/God when we are in need of understanding, mercy and grace…to go boldly before His throne and ask in His name…either in “individual prayer” or “intercessory prayer” for/on behalf of our brothers and sisters in Christ who are here on earth, and vice versa, because they too have that direct access by the efficacy of His blood sacrifice.

guanophore:
God meets us where we are. If you have not been able to commune with the members of the heavenly family that have passed on, perhaps you are not ready.

And obviously don’t need too!

---

 

[Peter_J]

They are different types of prayer….individual and intercessory by others, but one cannot say that one is better than the other in their “efficiency”…the efficiency is not based in the type of prayer…but in HIS grace and will.
Jesus indicated that they were different – as He taught the following while He walked among the people, that individual prayer was extremely important and that it would be answered.

I think this really gets to the heart of the matter.

St. Paul exhorted that “prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.”

Now surely Paul himself prayed for those intentions. Why, then, did he write the above? Does that imply that his own prayers were worthless? No, it simply implies that it would also be a good thing if others were to pray for those intentions. (“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”)

Hasn’t changed in our own day. There’s no need for us to choose A or B, when we can choose A and B – i.e. I can pray for something myself, and also ask others to pray for it.

 

[Peter_J]

Who says the HS stops leading and directing the saints in heaven?

Not me, or rather, not I.

That is not the same as the early believers/us initiating prayer to/through them.

Leeann, I believe that anyone who asks Mary (or, respectively, any of the other saints in heaven) for prayers, is in fact praying to her. Whether he/she realizes that he/she is praying to Mary, is unimportant to me. As a matter of fact, Christians prayed to Mary for several centuries (about 1000 years, I believe) without realizing that that’s what they were doing – then St. Thomas Aquinas came along and told them.

 

[Peter_J]

The doctrine of the communion of saints is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Correct. That’s why it’s in the Apostles’ Creed.

 

[guanophore]

The “unfathomable reason” would be that I don’t believe in the Catholic Church’s teachings with regards to the “communion of the saints”.

I am not sure you know what it is, so I cannot be sure that you don’t believe it. Below you affirm part of it, which is that the HS does not stop leading and directing the saints who have gone on before us.

Who says the HS stops leading and directing the saints in heaven?

Oh, plenty of people! I have had many fundamentalists here on CAF tell me they “know nothing” because they are “dead” and that they are in some kind of “soul sleep”.

That is not the same as the early believers/us initiating prayer to/through them.

But it is uniquely tied. They pray for us on their own, and we are members one of another, so what reason would there be to stop asking them for prayer, now that they are no longer hindered in prayer by the cares of this world? Does it not stand to reason, since they “see” differently, that their prayers are even more effective?

Why would we think that those who are in heaven would be included?

Because the Apostolic teaching is clear that all who are in Christ are alive, and that we are all members one of another. In fact, the Apostle taught that we are dependent upon one another. The better question is, why should they be excluded?

1 Cor 12:19-22
20 As it is, there are many members, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”

Basically what you are doing is saying to the saints “I have no need of you”, and to the Womb(Mary) “I have no need of you”.

I am sure it would not occur to him either. He knew the saints were alive in heaven yet he never promulgated the “doctrine of the communion of saints”….he encouraged the believers to pray for one another and to uplift him in prayer also.

On the contrary, it was his teaching about the members of the Body that is foundational to this doctrine.

The doctrine of the communion of saints is what the Catholic Church teaches.

That is because the Catholic Church teaches what the Apostles taught, and this is Apostolic Teaching. We are all alive in Christ. Death cannot separate us from His love. We cannot be separated from one another. We are members one of another. What one member of the Body does affects all.

:thumbsup:  In fact Love is why Jesus shed His blood for us and tells us that we are to come to Him and why the Apostles always pointed to Jesus/God when we are in need of understanding, mercy and grace…to go boldly before His throne and ask in His name…either in “individual prayer” or “intercessory prayer” for/on behalf of our brothers and sisters in Christ who are here on earth, and vice versa, because they too have that direct access by the efficacy of His blood sacrifice.

Do you imagine that the saints in heaven have been deprived of this great gift?

And obviously don’t need too!

It seems to me that Paul is saying the opposite.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

The above are excellent reasons to believe in the communion of saints, LeeAnn, but if they are not enough, remember that the early Christian practice of venerating the bones of the martyrs is archealogically established. The bones were venerated and prayers to the martyrs for their intercession written.

Why are we so much smarter than the first Christians?

I have heard you say before you have never attended a Mass. LeeAnn, please consider the Easter Vigil this year. I believe you will understand our faith so much better if you attend and see the baptisms and confirmations. We sing the Litany of the Saints during the Easter Vigil, and when you see it all 3-dimensionally in flesh in blood you can see for yourself that it is not even on the same planet as idolatry.