Prayer Restrictions Imposed On Me When Trying To Go Back To The Mormon Church

[dcana]

dcana,
So read what you said again - you confirmed we are both praying to God.
Because of your view of the Trinity, you get there regardless of which of the x3 peson masks he is wearing. It makes sense for Catholics to address Jesus or the Holy Spirit as they would God.

Since LDS see them as a Godhead, it’s essential that we open by addressing God specifically, and close in the name of Jesus.

You have a deficient view of the Trinity. In fact, you do not believe in the Trinity at all. It is like when people say they believe in gay “marriage.” Such a thing does not and cannot exist. It goes against the very definition of marriage. So your view of the Trinity goes against the definition of the Trinity. From your beliefs concerning the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, you believe in three gods. Yet the Bible says there is only one God. God the Father is not God unto Himself. God the Son is not God unto Himself. God the Holy Spirit is not God unto Himself. It’s debatable whether you are praying to God or not. On the one hand, He is very merciful. On the other hand, the god you are praying to does not exist. As the Lord says, “Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship.”

Is not Jesus Lord? Yes or no? Does the Bible say we should pray to the Lord? Yes or no? Since you do not believe in praying to Jesus and I think you would agree that the Bible says we should pray to the Lord, I can only make one conclusion.

 

[dcana]

The persons of the Trinity are not “aliases.” They are three separate persons, like you and I are separate persons. You are not me and I am not you, neither is any one person also another person.

It seems your idea of the Trinity is the same as the one held by Hindus regarding the Godhead. They believe that God has many (thousands, in fact) manifestations. The members of the Trinity are not manifestations of “God”, they are persons. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[mark_a]

I admit I dont’ fully get the Trinity.

Please let us all know if you find someone that does.

Would it be better if I said Catholics use one of three distict aliases when they pray to God?

Not necessarily.

 

[WetCatechumen]

Please let us all know if you find someone that does.

Not necessarily.

No. It’s worse that he says that.

The word is person.

 

[dianaiad]

Just baiting you.

Ah, the old “King’s X” defense.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

I admit I dont’ fully get the Trinity. Would it be better if I said Catholics use one of three distict aliases when they pray to God?

I personally don’t like this one because it makes me think Jason Bourne and his box of passports etc.

No it wouldn’t, because that is still modalism. Modalists believe that God eternally exists as one Person, and takes on three different “roles”/“masks”/“aliases” depending on the situation.

Catholics believe that God exists eternally as three distinct Persons. These Persons are not each other (this is an important distinction from modalism), which is why we believe that Jesus prayed to the Father, not Himself, for example. So, in prayer, Catholics have no problem praying to the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit, since they are all fully God. We also frequently pray to the Father in the name of the Son, as Mormons do (the Mass has many examples of this).

 

[LongJourney]

Ah, the old “King’s X” defense.

Hey, it worked!! I have been trying to play chess lately.

 

[dcana]

Please let us all know if you find someone that does.

Not necessarily.

“Getting” the Trinity does not mean fully comprehending the Trinity. Only God Himself can fully do that. It does mean believing in Faith what we know of the Trinity as revealed by the Bible and expanded through the centuries in the teaching of the Catholic Church, the Church that Jesus said would lead us into all Truth. as she is guided by God the Holy Spirit.

 

[dcana]

Todd520, on further consideration, I take back one thing I said. I believe when you pray that you do indeed pray to God. I was only trying to draw a distinction between the God who actually exists and the god who some believe in, who does not exist. But He hears all his children when they call to Him. Just as I’m sure he heard the prayers of the Aryans, Monophysites, Nestorians, etc many centuries ago. But, similarly, the god they believed in does not exist. They were all wrong and have been relegated to the history books. Truth will always prevail.

 

[dianaiad]

And the Mormon god won’t listen to any prayer in any other format?

Our Heavenly Father listens to all prayers. However, it’s nice to do it properly…and the irony of having CATHOLICS criticise MORMONS for having a set procedure for prayer is pretty blazing.

After all, we don’t have any memorized prayers, except those for the blessing of the Sacrament.

We begin with addressing our Father in Heaven because we are NOT Trinitarians. We are not praying TO Jesus, or TO the Holy Ghost, and we want to remember that. We thank Him first, because that’s just polite. We then ask, because that’s also polite. We end in the Name of Jesus Christ because He is the Savior, the second member of the Godhead, through Whose Name only can we be saved: He 'bought us with a price." We are His, and we should remember that.

We kneel when we can/when appropriate, in private, in humility.

However, those formal ‘rules’ are not set in concrete. Well, knowing Who you are praying to is important, and ending in the Name of Jesus Christ is important–but what goes on in the middle, and how it is said, where you are and how you are sitting, standing, kneeling, where your arms are—all that is optional. Do it kneeling and with your arms or hands folded if you can, but if you can’t, don’t let that stop you from praying.

If you only have time for a half second plea–then make it. If, in order to keep your prayer private and personal, you do it silently while sitting in a crowd–and the only thing you can do to show humility is close your eyes briefly, then don’t let that stop you from praying. If you have to do it with your eyes wide open and silently, do it that way.

We prefer to use the 'thee and thou," because it helps us shift into ‘prayer’ mode, but God isn’t going to turn His hearing aide off if someone says ‘you.’

Especially since, ironically enough, ‘thee’ and ‘thou’ is historically the INFORMAL tense, where ‘you’ is the formal one; this is why Quakers used “thee’ and ‘thou,’ not “You” and 'Yours.”

As for kneeling, I don’t kneel any more either…for the same reason the OP poster couldn’t. I have one bionic knee and the other one should be. I walk with a cane–kneeling isn’t an option. I can, however, sit reverently just fine.

 

[dianaiad]

Thank you!! Not all Mormons are alike. You know, the more time you spend here, the more you will diverge.

LJ, I do hate to disappoint you, but Todd’s opinion on prayer is not a divergence from LDS thought regarding it.

 

[dcana]

We begin with addressing our Father in Heaven because we are NOT Trinitarians. We are not praying TO Jesus, or TO the Holy Ghost, and we want to remember that.

Christians are Trinitarians.

 

[dianaiad]

Christians are Trinitarians.

Some are, yes.

It actually goes thusly: Trinitarians are Christians…not all Christians are trinitarians.

 

[LongJourney]

Originally Posted by dianaiad
We begin with addressing our Father in Heaven because we are NOT Trinitarians. We are not praying TO Jesus, or TO the Holy Ghost, and we want to remember that.

Originally posted by dcana
Christians are Trinitarians.

Repeated for emphasis.

Diana, should Mormons have the power to prohibit others from praying in the style they are most comfortable with?

Your non-capitalization of “Trinitarian” is clearly an example of your divergence from traditional Christianity.

 

[Holly3278]

Christians are Trinitarians.

Dianaiad is a Mormon and I believe she was referring to what Mormons believe just so you know.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I admit I dont’ fully get the Trinity. Would it be better if I said Catholics use one of three distict aliases when they pray to God?

I personally don’t like this one because it makes me think Jason Bourne and his box of passports etc.

My friend you seem to espouse a form of Modalism, which is a condemned heresy and has been for over 1700 years.

 

[dcana]

Muslims believe in Jesus. Satan and all his demons believe in Jesus. Most people around the world who are not Christian at least believe that Jesus was actually an historical person. But none of them are Christians. Do any of them believe that Jesus is the savior? Of course not. But if they did they would still not be Christians, because of their incorrect view (excepting Satan and his demons, of course - they are most definitely Trinitarian) of the most fundamental teaching of our Faith - who God is. Only God can save humans - an exalted spirit/man who became a god can save no one. First of all, there is no such thing as a “spirit being” who became a man who became a god. Things that do not exist cannot save anyone.

For that matter, only God can tell us who exactly He is. Human reason only goes so far, and that’s really not very far at all. It just comes down to who you believe - J.C. or J.S.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

We begin with addressing our Father in Heaven because we are NOT Trinitarians. We are not praying TO Jesus, or TO the Holy Ghost, and we want to remember that.

This is not a Trinitarian issue. When we pray to the Father, we know that we are praying to the Father. When we pray to the Son, we know that we are praying to the Son. When we pray to the Holy Spirit, we know that we are praying to the Holy Spirit. They are distinct Persons, who are not each other, and are not interchangeable. If I mention in my prayer to Jesus that I thank Him for His sacrifice on the cross, I know that I am talking to the Son, and not the Father, since the Father did not die on the cross.

 

[dcana]

Some are, yes.

It actually goes thusly: Trinitarians are Christians…not all Christians are trinitarians.

I disagree. It actually goes thus: All Trinitarians are Christians and all Christians are Trinitarians.

 

[dianaiad]

Repeated for emphasis.

Diana, should Mormons have the power to prohibit others from praying in the style they are most comfortable with?

Nope, pray as you like. I have just described how WE do it…just as Catholics publish the rosary prayers and all the set prayers you use. So…should Catholics have the power to force others to pray the rosary instead of using the form of prayer they are most comfortable with?

Your non-capitalization of “Trinitarian” is clearly an example of your divergence from traditional Christianity.

No, my ‘non-capitalization of “Trinitarian” (especially when, in the same sentence, it WAS capitalized) means that I made a typographical error. I didn’t hit the "shift’ key when I should have.

Period.