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Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
That Mary is God’s most fantastic creation
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justasking4
Guest
If the Scriptures never give Mary such titles should the church do so?
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historyb
Guest
I’d say God coming as a babe is his most fantastic creation, not mary
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Peter_J
Guest
It’s certainly true that Christ is the “Firstborn of creation”; but in another sense, since Christ isn’t created we can call Mary “most fantastic creation” (or, if you like, “most fantastic created being”).
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Peter_J
Guest
Touché.
Nevertheless, I think the fact that the people who would react negatively are Protestants renders it much less significant in the eyes of most Catholics.
Plus, from my own personal experience, I would say that there are many Catholics whose attitude toward Marian devotion is, if you will, a “we-have-to-make-up-for-all-those-Protestants who-don’t-love-Mary-enough” kind of attitude.
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historyb
Guest
While what Mary did is blessed, I don’t think she is that special
For God does not show favoritism. Romans 2:11
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guanophore
Guest
It is my fervent prayer that her gracious intercessions will do just that!
Yes. All who are “in Christ” have the great privilege of sharing in the ministry of reconciling the world to Himself.
I think this is exactly the point. The saints, either in this world, or the next, can be aware of whatever God wants them to be aware of, and can act in whatever manner He allows.
We see this in Samuel appearing to Saul, and talking to him about what was going to happen the next day. This could not happen apart from God’s will.
I do agree that God acts on for those who have passed on by virtue of the prayers of those here.
Since the Church cannot err, this is a moot point. However, I agree that men are always in need of reform. Try not to let your anti-Catholic bigotry derail another thread!
This is not a problem for Catholics, since we know that not all the Apostolic Teaching is found in the Scriptures.
Yes, this is what He intended when He referred to her as “Woman”. This is why we call her the new Eve. She, by her obedience, fulfilled God’s whole intention for womankind from the beginning of time.
Only if you ignore what the Scriptures themselves testify about her.
I realize this is a problem for you because you have rejected all of the apostolic teachings that you cannot “see” in your trucated bible. However, even your readers digest version of scripture shows that it is God who lifted Mary up:
Luke 1:52
52 He has brought down the powerful from their thrones,
and lifted up the lowly;
This would not be present in Scripture if the Apostles did not teach it.
Who are the mothers that Jesus promised to give us? Where to the scriptures teach us she should not be honored?
“There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.” Rom 2:9-11
“love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor.” Rom 12:10
" Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due." Rom 13:7
“Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.” Eph 6:1-3
" So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me "
Phil 2:29-30
“Honor widows who are real widows.” 1 Tim 5:3
“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;” 1 Tim 5:17-18
“Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” Heb 13:7
Show how Mary should be excluded by any of these passages?
It is not ‘far different’ for those who have received the Kingdom.
Mark 10:29-30
“Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this age — houses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields…”
The fact that you reject the family that has been provided for you in Christ is evidence of a deficient understanding of the Body of Christ. This is what I am referring to when I say you would be better benefitted by concentrating on the basics. You will not be able to grasp the meaning and purpose of the intercession of the saints as long as you reject the fact that we are all members one of another.
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justasking4
Guest
Since were discussing prayers to Mary i came across this in my research. Its from The Glories of Mary St. Alphonsus de Liguori At the command of Mary all obey, even God.
Redemptorist Fathers, 1931
with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur
CHAPTER 6
TURN, THEN, MOST GRACIOUS ADVOCATE
Mary Is an Advocate with Power
to Save All
At the command of Mary all obey, even God. 38
She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. 39
Therefore, to use the words of St. Antonine, God has put the whole Church not only under the patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary.
Since, then, the Mother must have the same power as the Son, Mary became omnipotent because Jesus is omnipotent. Of course, the Son is omnipotent by nature, where Mary is omnipotent only by grace. This is proved by the fact that the Son never refuses the Mother anything she seeks, as St. Bridget learned in a revelation.
One day this Saint heard Jesus saying to Mary: " Ask Me for anything; your request can never be in vain." And this is the beautiful reason He gave: “Because you never refused Me anything on earth, I will refuse you nothing in Heaven.”
If this is true i can see why the Catholic Church would encourage prayers to Mary. The question is: Is the this true and how does the Catholic church know this to be true of her?
Redemptorist Fathers, 1931
with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur
CHAPTER 6
TURN, THEN, MOST GRACIOUS ADVOCATE
Mary Is an Advocate with Power
to Save All
At the command of Mary all obey, even God. 38
She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. 39
Therefore, to use the words of St. Antonine, God has put the whole Church not only under the patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary.
Since, then, the Mother must have the same power as the Son, Mary became omnipotent because Jesus is omnipotent. Of course, the Son is omnipotent by nature, where Mary is omnipotent only by grace. This is proved by the fact that the Son never refuses the Mother anything she seeks, as St. Bridget learned in a revelation.
One day this Saint heard Jesus saying to Mary: " Ask Me for anything; your request can never be in vain." And this is the beautiful reason He gave: “Because you never refused Me anything on earth, I will refuse you nothing in Heaven.”
If this is true i can see why the Catholic Church would encourage prayers to Mary. The question is: Is the this true and how does the Catholic church know this to be true of her?
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fix
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justasking4
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You never stop amazing me, :bigyikes: How you are able to get this out of this word is mind boogling. If you are referring to John 2:
4 this is what the New American Bible says: about this verse:
This verse may seek to show that Jesus did not work miracles to help his family and friends, as in the apocryphal gospels. Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”–a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13).
And none ever say these kinds of things. We must go outside the Scriptures and centuries after the apostles before we see these kinds of titles appearing.
If you look at this in context you will see this verse is not about Mary
Yes. Mary should be excluded since these passages have nothing to do with the departed. Secondly, none of these passages don’t come close to anyone making Mary their mother.
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guanophore
Guest
It is true that the Scriptures do point to the Trinity, just as they do to all Catholic Teaching. I agree that the doctrine was not formed out of “thin air”, and that it did entail study of the Scripture, however ,you have to keep in mind that the non-Trinitarians then and now are also deriving their beliefs from Scripture. The difference is that the Catholic Church does not separate the scripture from the Apostolic Traditions, that gives us the lens through which to read. The Arians abandoned this, as did the Gnostics, as do the fundamentalists and JW’s of today. The separation from sacred tradition results in all manner of diversions and errors. However, what does this have to do with the topic?
All the Marian doctrines are derived from what we know about Christ. Mary was called the Mother of God to combat those who refused the hypostatic union - two natures in one Person. He was fully God, and fully man, but a mother does not give birth to just a “body”. A woman gives birth to a whole person, body, soul, and spirit. Since He is God, she is his Mother. These doctrines work back from the identity of Christ, which had to be more clearly defined as a result of heresies. These heresies did not crop up until after the NT was completed, that is why we do not read about them in the NT. The same is true for the word “Trinity” which is why we don’t find that word in Scripture. It, like the Marian doctrines, is part of Sacred Tradition.
I agree that worship is to be given to God alone. This is a Catholic teaching. However, you will have some work to do to explain why the Apostles teach us to honor people, if this is a sin.
“There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.” Rom 2:9-11
“love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor.” Rom 12:10
" Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due." Rom 13:7
“Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.” Eph 6:1-3
" So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me "
Phil 2:29-30
“Honor widows who are real widows.” 1 Tim 5:3
“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;” 1 Tim 5:17-18
“Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” Heb 13:7
Never is it found that we should stop giving honor to those honorable persons who have passed into the next life. Furthermore, Jesus makes it clear that He is not the God of the dead, but the Living!
Right next to the list of books that belong in the NT, and the definition of the term “Trinity”.
However, this does not concern us, since we know that not everything was intended to be included in the scriptures.
At least try to have the maturity to own your own problems instead of trying to give them to others. Catholics are not limited to the Holy Scriptures, so we don’t have a problem accepting the Apostolic TEachings that are outsid of it.
You still have not explained Samuel, Moses, and Elijah.
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guanophore
Guest
I agree. It is only the reception of the Apostolic Authority that hold any weight. It is the Apostles that Jesus authorized to teach His Word.
Yes, but those in heaven are alive and participating in our prayers!
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guanophore
Guest
You are right, it is an assumption. You are assuming that Jesus lied, and that He really does not give eternal life to those who believe in Him, and that he was trying to mislead people when He said he was not the God of the dead, but the living.
It did not need to be spelled out because everyone believed what Jesus taught about these things. It is only in the last 200 years when American Fundamentalism became totally separated from Apostolic Tradition that these truths taught by Him were jettisoned.
Yes, but we don’t consider the Sacred Tradition “negative” as you do.
No, it is not. In fact, all those who have received the Apostolic Tradition practice this way, including those who have no fondness for Rome.
This was the practice of the Apostles, and this is what has been practiced by those who received their teaching from the beginning. It does not come "from " the Bible, because it was going on centuries before the Bible was put together.
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guanophore
Guest
The scripture does give Mary titles, and her Son is pleased when we honor her as He does.
Are you getting your doctrine from footnotes now? If this is the meaning, why did He go ahead and do the miracle for friends and family?
Jesus was never “hostile” to His mother. He loved and honored her, just as every good Jew does toward his mother.
Jesus was pointing out to His Blessed Mother that a public miracle would set Him on a straight path to the Cross, and that their relationship would never be the same again. He allowed her to choose the time when she was ready to give Him up to the world, and to His ministry. After that day, HIs disciples believed in Him, and his path took Him out to the world. She no longer had HIm all to herself.
Well, we read it differently!
You will have a hard time defending that position, since you yourself have made so many postings about Mary’s lowly state in life, and purporting that Mary was “amazed” by the angel because she never thought a King would come out of her “ordinary” family. The context is Mary talking about the incarnation.
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Enoch365
Guest
PRAYER OF THE ETHIOPIANS
IN EXALTATION OF THE HOLY MOTHER.
Our Holy Mother Mary! With the Words of Greeting of the Angel Saint Gabriel,
we bow to You in solemn salutation saying, “Hail, O Favoured One!” You are Virgin
both in soul and in body. Because of Your perfect chastity, You became the Mother of
the Almighty God. And so, You deserve such glorious salutation.
Your womb bore the Holy Adam who is the Sacred Fruit of the Tree of Life.
Hence, You are the Holy Eve, the Chosen and the Blessed One among all the women.
In the early times, the Prophets spoke of You as “Ethiopia stretches out Her
Hands to God”, and we addressed you as ‘Our Mother Zion’.
Rejoice, O Our Queen in Heavens and on Earth! God, through Your
instrumentality fulfilled His promise of our Salvation and granted His Eternal Covenant
of Mercy to His Creation. And so, we always praise You saying. “You are the Blessed,
full of Grace.”
In the Words of Jesus Christ, our Saviour, Priest and King, we are Your children,
committed to Your Maternal guardianship; and You are our Holy Mother, entrusted to
our spiritual dedication. Thus, we believe Your Motherhood that has never forsaken Your
beloved Son will always be with us.
We thank Our Gracious Father, God the Most High, for His Benevolence of such
magnitude. World without end, Amen.
IN EXALTATION OF THE HOLY MOTHER.
Our Holy Mother Mary! With the Words of Greeting of the Angel Saint Gabriel,
we bow to You in solemn salutation saying, “Hail, O Favoured One!” You are Virgin
both in soul and in body. Because of Your perfect chastity, You became the Mother of
the Almighty God. And so, You deserve such glorious salutation.
Your womb bore the Holy Adam who is the Sacred Fruit of the Tree of Life.
Hence, You are the Holy Eve, the Chosen and the Blessed One among all the women.
In the early times, the Prophets spoke of You as “Ethiopia stretches out Her
Hands to God”, and we addressed you as ‘Our Mother Zion’.
Rejoice, O Our Queen in Heavens and on Earth! God, through Your
instrumentality fulfilled His promise of our Salvation and granted His Eternal Covenant
of Mercy to His Creation. And so, we always praise You saying. “You are the Blessed,
full of Grace.”
In the Words of Jesus Christ, our Saviour, Priest and King, we are Your children,
committed to Your Maternal guardianship; and You are our Holy Mother, entrusted to
our spiritual dedication. Thus, we believe Your Motherhood that has never forsaken Your
beloved Son will always be with us.
We thank Our Gracious Father, God the Most High, for His Benevolence of such
magnitude. World without end, Amen.
C
cfrancis
Guest
For several posts now, your demand has been, “Show me in Scripture…”
I keep harping on this issue of the underlying logic, but it is an important point to be made.
Where in Scripture does Christ tell us to have and use a Bible?
Where in Scripture does Christ, or any other figure, tell us what is to be in the Bible?
If your argument rests on this premise - “show me in the Bible where…” - it must be applied uniformly and consistently.
Show me in the Bible where the Bible tells me what books belong in the Bible.
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banjo
Guest
I don’t know if you read the second sentence in my post but you are supplying a perfect example of the point I was making. You rely only on the Scriptures and my point is that Sola Scriptura is a man-made tradition.
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guanophore
Guest
Both of you are right, of course, but your points are off topic in this thread. It behooves ja4 to stick with more fundamental aspects of the faith, since he is limited in his resources. He cannot apprehend the meaning and practice of prayer to the Blessed Virgin because he has rejected the Apostolic Teachings, and clings to the man-made tradition of SS. He does not believe that she remained a Virgin, among other things, and does not believe in the communion of saints, or the ministry of intercession, so there are too many handicaps really to grasp a topic of this kind.
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justasking4
Guest
Although this is off topic i will give you some answers
In a couple of places. One is found in John 15: 7
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
How are we to have His words abide in us without the Scriptures?
By His time they already knew what was Scripture. Jesus and His apostles refer to it many times. As for the NT it appears that the church had a very good idea what was going to be in the NT. We can see this in the study of the canon.
You are not going to find such a phrase but you will find a number of things that would tell you if you know what to know to look for and why it should be in the Bible. The Gospels were accepted very early as being a reliable source on the life of Christ. The same could be said of most of the letters of Paul. These documents had early acceptance by the church at large before the final canon was determined later.
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GailMac
Guest
Dear Justasking - I am pleased that you have found your way to some solid Marian instructions and are at least reading them. I hope in your heart you refrain from defaming them, for your own good.
You state: Originally Posted by justasking4
Did Jesus Himself ever speak of her this way? I’ll give you a short answer - what you are reading is one of the ways in which He does speak of His Mother. We are all one in Him as He is in us. When the Church speaks, He speaks. When the Church honors the Mother of God, God Himself is bestowing the grace to do so and He is well pleased.
I wish you could be blessed to receive such as it is. I’ll continue to pray that one day you too will be able to say with the rest of us, “…my Mother and my Queen!”
Peace,
Gail
You state: Originally Posted by justasking4
Did Jesus Himself ever speak of her this way? I’ll give you a short answer - what you are reading is one of the ways in which He does speak of His Mother. We are all one in Him as He is in us. When the Church speaks, He speaks. When the Church honors the Mother of God, God Himself is bestowing the grace to do so and He is well pleased.
I wish you could be blessed to receive such as it is. I’ll continue to pray that one day you too will be able to say with the rest of us, “…my Mother and my Queen!”
Peace,
Gail
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