Prayers to Mary

[Fair_Lady]

I’m b-a-a-a-ck…

[Statement in green highlighted by LittleSoldier]

I would first of all like to know where you got the idea I have highlighted in your post. Is this in the Bible?

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

I followed that though with the example of Jesus praying in the garden. What He did was named his desire to, if possible, not go to the cross. But then He stated that ultimately it wasn’t His will, but the Father’s that should be be done. We can do that too. We can name our heart’s desire and tell it to the Father. But it should be in the spirit of, not my will, but Thine be done. In other words, we are desiring God’s will for us over our own wishes and personal desires. We are then showing submission to Him.

If it’s true that this is the criterion for knowing that a prayer is in accordance with God’s will, then any prayers, including prayers to Mary placed in His hand, when we offer ourselves completely to Him, to do with us as He wills, are then prayed according to His will, regardless of how those prayers are worded.

No, because there is so much in the prayers to Mary that goes against God. For example, lets take “Morning consecration to Mary” which I have from saint-anthony.be/prayer.htm#consc .

"My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to Thee. And to show my devoition to Thee, I offer Thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession. Amen

That prayer is displacing God with Mary. For anyone to offer themselves entirely to Mary is offering themselves to another god. That goes completely against the will of God for He wants to be our God.

Therefore, those prayers you condemn are acceptable to God, so long as the person praying them places those prayers in His hands and offers herself completely to Him to do with her as He wills.
It’s not possible to pray those prayers under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and in the name of Jesus because they have put Mary in God’s place. He will not share His glory with anyone.

 

[Holly3278]

Yes, I pray to Mary and I see nothing wrong with the prayers listed in the OP either.

 

[Fair_Lady]

I’m b-a-a-a-ck…

I followed that with the example of Jesus praying in the garden. What He did was named his desire to, if possible, not go to the cross. But then He stated that ultimately it wasn’t His will, but the Father’s that should be done. We can do that too. We can name our heart’s desire and tell it to the Father. But it should be in the spirit of, not my will, but Thine be done. In other words, we are desiring God’s will for us over our own wishes and personal desires. We are then showing submission to Him.

No, because there is so much in the prayers to Mary that goes against God. For example, lets take “Morning consecration to Mary” which I have from saint-anthony.be/prayer.htm#consc .

"My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to Thee. And to show my devoition to Thee, I offer Thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession. Amen

That prayer is displacing God with Mary. For anyone to offer themselves entirely to Mary is offering themselves to another god. That goes completely against the will of God for He wants to be our God.

Therefore, those prayers you condemn are acceptable to God, so long as the person praying them places those prayers in His hands and offers herself completely to Him to do with her as He wills.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I’m b-a-a-a-ck…

I followed that though with the example of Jesus praying in the garden. What He did was named his desire to, if possible, not go to the cross. But then He stated that ultimately it wasn’t His will, but the Father’s that should be be done. We can do that too. We can name our heart’s desire and tell it to the Father. But it should be in the spirit of, not my will, but Thine be done. In other words, we are desiring God’s will for us over our own wishes and personal desires. We are then showing submission to Him.

No, because there is so much in the prayers to Mary that goes against God. For example, lets take “Morning consecration to Mary” which I have from saint-anthony.be/prayer.htm#consc .

"My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to Thee. And to show my devoition to Thee, I offer Thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession. Amen

That prayer is displacing God with Mary. For anyone to offer themselves entirely to Mary is offering themselves to another god. That goes completely against the will of God for He wants to be our God.

Therefore, those prayers you condemn are acceptable to God, so long as the person praying them places those prayers in His hands and offers herself completely to Him to do with her as He wills.
It’s not possible to pray those prayers under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and in the name of Jesus because they have put Mary in God’s place. He will not share His glory with anyone.

It is possible to pray those prayers under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and in the name of Jesus because they have not put Mary in God’s place. And He does share His glory with anyone who loves Him and wants to be with Him. What good is glory if it can’t be shared?

 

[LittleSoldier]

I’m b-a-a-a-ck…

I followed that though with the example of Jesus praying in the garden. What He did was named his desire to, if possible, not go to the cross. But then He stated that ultimately it wasn’t His will, but the Father’s that should be be done. We can do that too. We can name our heart’s desire and tell it to the Father. But it should be in the spirit of, not my will, but Thine be done. In other words, we are desiring God’s will for us over our own wishes and personal desires. We are then showing submission to Him.

No, because there is so much in the prayers to Mary that goes against God. For example, lets take “Morning consecration to Mary” which I have from saint-anthony.be/prayer.htm#consc .

"My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to Thee. And to show my devoition to Thee, I offer Thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession. Amen

That prayer is displacing God with Mary. For anyone to offer themselves entirely to Mary is offering themselves to another god. That goes completely against the will of God for He wants to be our God.

Therefore, those prayers you condemn are acceptable to God, so long as the person praying them places those prayers in His hands and offers herself completely to Him to do with her as He wills.
It’s not possible to pray those prayers under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and in the name of Jesus because they have put Mary in God’s place. He will not share His glory with anyone.

Wow. I just prayed that prayer and I believe I was guided by the Holy Spirit as I did so.

Please cite Scripture book, chapter, and verse where it states that “for anyone to offer themselves to Mary is offering themselves to another god.”

 

[Fair_Lady]

Wow. I just prayed that prayer and I believe I was guided by the Holy Spirit as I did so.

You can know if it was guided by the Holy Spirit if you can find anywhere in the Bible that:

1. We should pray to Mary.
2. That we should offer ourselves entirely to Mary.

Please cite Scripture book, chapter, and verse where it states that “for anyone to offer themselves to Mary is offering themselves to another god.”

This is what the Bible tells us that we should do:

We are to call upon God:

“Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” Jeremiah 33:3

“And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.” Psalm 50:15

“Give ear, O Lord, unto my prayer… In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.” Psalm 86:6, 7

“He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.” Psalm 91:15

“But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.” Psalm 37:39

“O LORD, be gracious unto us; we have waited for thee: be thou their arm every morning, our salvation also in the time of trouble.” Isaiah 33:2

“Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.” Psalm 55:22

“Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.” Psalm 55:17

“The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.” Psalm 145:18

“Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.” Philippians 4:6

So we see from scripture that it is God who hears our prayers. He hasn’t given that ability to anyone else in heaven or He would have told us. Is He not good enough? Why would we go against Him and offer ourselves entirely to someone else? If we offer ourselves entirely to Mary, what is there left to offer to God? Nothing. Praying to Mary and the saints started in someone’s overactive imagination. I would not want to approach God’s judgement seat if my devotion had been to Mary.

 

[crazzeto]

Fair Lady,

I suggest you read exerps of “The Second Eve” posted on Google books. It was written by Bishop John Henry Newman, a former Anglican Bishop who converted to the Catholic faith and is now on his way to Saint Hood.

Of particular interest here, is the way in which the early Christian’s regarded Mary as early as the 2nd century AD.

books.google.com/books?id=pbJC5sFucY0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+second+eve&cd=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I think you should find it quite illuminating with regard to early Christian views on Marian doctrine.

Edit
While I think the book is technically out of print, I beleive you should be able to find a copy on Amazon if you’re interested in reading the whole thing. It’s only 30 pgs, and should be very cheap. I managed to buy one at a local Catholic Christian store.

 

[Indyann]

I would not want to approach God’s judgement seat if my devotion had been to Mary.

I would not want to approach God’s judgement seat and hear Jesus say, “I gave you MY Mother to be YOUR Mother, but you have rejected and ignored Her all your life.”

 

[poetryforjesus]

He will not share His glory with anyone.

What a wrong image of God! As if God is a proud dictator who is so above His creatures that He wouldn’t allow anyone anywhere close to His glory. That is so contrary to Jesus. By humbling Himself to take the form of man, Jesus already shared His glory with all humanity, and in particular His Blessed Mother.

If God will not share His glory with anyone, why do christians believe they will be glorified in heaven?

 

[poetryforjesus]

You can know if it was guided by the Holy Spirit if you can find anywhere in the Bible that:

1. We should pray to Mary.
2. That we should offer ourselves entirely to Mary.

By the same token, you can know if it was guided by the Holy Spirit if you can find anywhere in the Bible that:

1. We should not pray to Mary.
2. We should not offer ourselves entirely to Mary.

 

[crazzeto]

What a wrong image of God! As if God is a proud dictator who is so above His creatures that He wouldn’t allow anyone anywhere close to His glory. That is so contrary to Jesus. By humbling Himself to take the form of man, Jesus already shared His glory with all humanity, and in particular His Blessed Mother.

If God will not share His glory with anyone, why do christians believe they will be glorified in heaven?

Actually Christ him self makes this reference out of Isaias 42 him self, in order to make the statement that he is God durring his prayer in the Garden

John 17
drbo.org/chapter/50017.htm

5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.

Isaias 42
drbo.org/chapter/27042.htm

8 I the Lord, this is my name: I will not give my glory to another, nor my praise to graven things.

In order to understand how we could possibly, then be intercessors, and how Mary can work in this role and indeed be appropriatly referred to with Characteristics one would associate with the Holy Spirit (for instance, out of Bishop Newman’s book) one must understand the theology of the body (Pope JP II has great writings on this, google it).

The short version is that we are Christ’s mystical body, in a literal sense. Christ is in us, as we are in Christ. Thus we are able to share in Christ’s Glory, share in his intercessory role (this is how we can pray for each other, consider this. If not for the theology of the body would it be appropriate for me to pray for you?) and what makes these prayer appropriate.

So in addition to John Henry Newman’s book, I would also suggest reading the works of John Paul II, along with the biblical annotations you will find through out.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM

 

[Cristian_B]

By the same token, you can know if it was guided by the Holy Spirit if you can find anywhere in the Bible that:

1. We should not pray to Mary.

The difference is that while it doesn’t say we should pray to Mary, it does say that we must pray to God?

1. We should not offer ourselves entirely to Mary.

Putting your trust, or offering yourself to man is quite forbidden by God. And yes, Mary is human.

 

[LittleSoldier]

You can know if it was guided by the Holy Spirit if you can find anywhere in the Bible that:

1. We should pray to Mary.
2. That we should offer ourselves entirely to Mary.

This is what the Bible tells us that we should do:

We are to call upon God:

“Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” Jeremiah 33:3

“And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.” Psalm 50:15

“Give ear, O Lord, unto my prayer… In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.” Psalm 86:6, 7

“He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.” Psalm 91:15

“But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.” Psalm 37:39

“O LORD, be gracious unto us; we have waited for thee: be thou their arm every morning, our salvation also in the time of trouble.” Isaiah 33:2

“Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.” Psalm 55:22

“Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.” Psalm 55:17

“The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.” Psalm 145:18

“Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.” Philippians 4:6

So we see from scripture that it is God who hears our prayers. He hasn’t given that ability to anyone else in heaven or He would have told us. Is He not good enough? Why would we go against Him and offer ourselves entirely to someone else? If we offer ourselves entirely to Mary, what is there left to offer to God? Nothing. Praying to Mary and the saints started in someone’s overactive imagination. I would not want to approach God’s judgement seat if my devotion had been to Mary.

Please discontinue side-stepping and provide the Scripture passage I requested.

Your last paragraph appears to be nothing but a rationalization of a pre-formed idea. The reason this thread is dying is because you don’t answer questions, you don’t provide appropriate Scripture passages - what you do is side-step, avoid the issue, skirt the issue, and ignore what others post until they get fed up and leave.

 

[LittleSoldier]

The difference is that while it doesn’t say we should pray to Mary, it does say that we must pray to God?

Where in the Bible does it state that we must pray to God?

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

Where in the Bible does it state that we must only do what is in the Bible?

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

Putting your trust, or offering yourself to man is quite forbidden by God. And yes, Mary is human.

Please show where in the Bible it states that “putting your trust, or offering yourself to man is quite forbidden by God.”

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

In Post 91, you stated the following in reference to the Bible:

“So it is with “Do everything in love”. This simple commandments[sic] of doing everything in love covers all aspects of life, including everything that is, was and will be.”

If I pray to Mary in love, it is acceptable, according to what you posted. Are you changing the rules now?

 

[Cristian_B]

Where in the Bible does it state that we must pray to God?

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

*And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

"This, then, is how you should pray:
" ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’ For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.* Matthew 6:7-15

1. 
   *]Jesus does not tell us to pray to Abraham.
   *]Jesus does not tell us to pray to Moses.
   *]Jesus does not tell us to pray to Elijah, who was taken up to heaven, and thus is alive.
   *]Jesus does not tell us to pray to Enoch, who, like Elijah, is supposed to be alive in Heaven.
   *]Jesus did not tell us to pray to angels.
   *]Jesus not the apostles told us to pray to anyone except our Father, which is in heaven.
   *]etc.
   
   Jesus does not tell us to pray to people that were supposed to be alive, but you are telling us to pray to saints that are supposed to be alive, but aren’t.* He is telling us to pray to God directly, because that is one of the reasons He made peace between God and us: so we might build a relationship with Him, not His creations*.
   

   Where in the Bible does it state that we must only do what is in the Bible?
   
   Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

   Did I say that? But if it contradicts the Bible, then you mustn’t.
   

   Please show where in the Bible it states that “putting your trust, or offering yourself to man is quite forbidden by God.”
   
   Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

   Simply because whoever trusts man is cursed by God.
   
   This is what the LORD says:
   "Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
   who depends on flesh for his strength
   and whose heart turns away from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5
   
   God alone is Holy and righteous. He is the only One whom we can put our trust in. Humans are not trustworthy.
   
   But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him. Jeremiah 17:7
   

   In Post 91, you stated the following in reference to the Bible:
   
   “So it is with “Do everything in love”. This simple commandments[sic] of doing everything in love covers all aspects of life, including everything that is, was and will be.”
   
   If I pray to Mary in love, it is acceptable, according to what you posted. Are you changing the rules now?

   Nope. In order to do everything in love, you must love God. And you cannot do everything in love without loving God first. Therefore, if you do everything in love, you love God. And if you love God, how can you disobey Him? God strictly forbids any sort of communication (or attempt) with the dead. Because the dead are dead, and know nothing. And since you cannot communicate with the dead, you communicate with demons. Is there a reason to communicate with the evil? Shouldn’t we stay away from him? Therefore, we should only pray to God.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I would not want to approach God’s judgement seat and hear Jesus say, “I gave you MY Mother to be YOUR Mother, but you have rejected and ignored Her all your life.”

Amen. Well said!!

 

[Cristian_B]

Amen. Well said!!

soundofgrace.com/piper82/040982.htm

This is the correct meaning of the passage.

edit: if you want to prove me wrong, then show me what is wrong said in that article, and I would preferably wish you back up with Scripture, but if you want, you can quote other sources as well

 

[poetryforjesus]

*
Simply because whoever trusts man is cursed by God.
All right, when you were a little child, did you trust in your mother and father? I’m sure you did, and you did it whole-heartedly. Does that mean God curses you, then?

Jesus also said that whoever listens to His disciples listens to Him; whoever rejects them rejects Him. That means christians also must trust His disciples. God will not curse us for trusting His disciples.

People trusted the disciples so much that if they touched the hem of their garment, they were healed of their diseases. They were healed because of their faith in God and their faith in what the disciples were preaching.

Likewise, if we trust in Mary because she is so close to Christ, we are not trusting her apart from Christ; we are trusting her precisely because we trust in Christ. If we don’t trust Christ, we would have absolutely no regard whatsoever for Mary, for who is she except for the child that she bore?

Therefore our trust in Mary will not be cursed by God.
​

​

 

[poetryforjesus]

*
Nope. In order to do everything in love, you must love God. And you cannot do everything in love without loving God first. Therefore, if you do everything in love, you love God. And if you love God, how can you disobey Him? God strictly forbids any sort of communication (or attempt) with the dead. Because the dead are dead, and know nothing. And since you cannot communicate with the dead, you communicate with demons. Is there a reason to communicate with the evil? Shouldn’t we stay away from him? Therefore, we should only pray to God.*

The dead are dead and know nothing, really? Jesus said that God is God of the living not of the dead. If the dead know nothing, then what were Jesus doing on the Mount of transfiguration talking to Moses and Elijah?

What happens after YOU die? Do you become dead and then know nothing? What ever happens to the idea of heaven and a glorified life in Christ? Do you imagine that you will simply be sleeping? The Book of Revelation talks about dead martyrs and saints praying to God for the vengence of their blood. Doesn’t sound like they are simply dead and know nothing.
​

​

 

[poetryforjesus]

Actually Christ him self makes this reference out of Isaias 42 him self, in order to make the statement that he is God durring his prayer in the Garden

John 17
drbo.org/chapter/50017.htm

Isaias 42
drbo.org/chapter/27042.htm

In order to understand how we could possibly, then be intercessors, and how Mary can work in this role and indeed be appropriatly referred to with Characteristics one would associate with the Holy Spirit (for instance, out of Bishop Newman’s book) one must understand the theology of the body (Pope JP II has great writings on this, google it).

The short version is that we are Christ’s mystical body, in a literal sense. Christ is in us, as we are in Christ. Thus we are able to share in Christ’s Glory, share in his intercessory role (this is how we can pray for each other, consider this. If not for the theology of the body would it be appropriate for me to pray for you?) and what makes these prayer appropriate.

So in addition to John Henry Newman’s book, I would also suggest reading the works of John Paul II, along with the biblical annotations you will find through out.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM

Thank you for expounding on this. You make a very important point. It’s true that God’s glory will never have anything to do with idols. it’s also true, as you have explained, we are able to share in His glory precisely because Christ has shared His own life with us.

When people criticize Marian devotion, they often don’t realize that we love Mary within the Body of Christ not outside of it. All communion of saints is done within the Body of Christ. Therefore it is not idolatory.