Praying for the Conversion of Jews...

[Catholig]

Catholig, I think you misunderstand me. My issue is with one word only. The word is ‘perfidus’. It most certainly means ‘faithless’, but its core meaning is closer to what we would understand as ‘treacherous’. And yes, I have checked my Latin dictionary, which confirms what I say.

Being unfamiliar with the board, I managed to come in on page 2 without realising I had missed page 1. One of the contributors there gives an insight into the attitudes and actions of Christians against Jews over two milennia. This simple, single word played a part in all of that, providing justification, in some minds, for unjust actions. In fact, the history of Christian dealings with Jews is mind-boggling.

You simply cannot label a whole people as treacherous, yet that is what the prayer did.

On further checking, however, I see that the word has been removed. Deo Gratias!

Herod, again as I said. I am unsure of the prayer’s composer’s intent for he could very well have meant “faithless, treacherous, false” as Cassell’s latin dictionary says - or “partly faithful” as another poster said the word meant. I don’t know if he had malign intentions - or if the word meant something somewhat softer in his view.

Catholig

 

[JKirkLVNV]

It may have changed in your parish, but my pastor uses the pre-1955 Holy Week ceremonies.

Ah, liturgical diversity. Don’t you love it, Vegas? Makes a Spirit-filled Vatican II Catholic like me feel all warm inside.

Why would you bother posting then, doc? You clearly stated that you simply wanted to be left alone with your liturgy. If you’re attending an Indult, you have been.

 

[KMXV]

Hyperbole? I don’t think he could have managed to look at all the hand-missals. Definitely he must have missed this one: published by Henri Proost, Revised Sylvester P. Jurgens, same company that did the translation that is used in the Baronius, 1954 “Let us pray also for the perfidious Jews”…“who drivest not away thy mercy even form the perfidious Jews…”. Same translation in one from 1910 and also in the first hand missal in the USA in the 19th century.

The switch in most vernacular missals was a result of Pius XII, and his conversation with Jules Isaac. (cf. Wgoder Jewish-Christian relations) This also notes that he also intended to strike out the word, but it was done by Bl. John XXIII.

My dad’s missal from the 40’s says perfidious too. Eh…what’re you gonna do? I mainly posted that because it mentions the Latin word perfidis doesn’t have quite the same meaning as it’s English equivalent. Not being a Latinist, I can’t say one way or another.

Motto: Never trust Wikipedia.

That’s good advice at anytime.

And whether one likes it or not, you can’t deny that in the Middle Ages there were progroms based on sermons based on this very prayer. It may be exaggerated in the modern times (oooh, look how WICKED the Church was back then) with convinient forgetting of those who spoke out against it, but it was there. St. Bernard writes to Henry, archbishop of Mayenne, who had started one such progrom, refuting him on the basis of this same prayer which he had included in the sermon

And as a brilliant (for a liberal) history teacher I once had cautioned us, the worst mistake we can make is to view history through the lens of our modern mores and sensibilities. That’s historical arrogance.

What happened, happened. I’m not going to play the game of the anti-Catholics and beat my breast for the perceived historical sins of my Church. They use such tactics to discredit the dogmas and doctrines of the Church. I won’t be a party to that.

I never engaged in any pogroms, I never loaded any Jews into boxcars, I never called a Jew a Christ-killer. Nor do I intend to. Let those who did deal with their souls before God.

 

[KMXV]

Why would you bother posting then, doc? You clearly stated that you simply wanted to be left alone with your liturgy. If you’re attending an Indult, you have been.

Because somebody brought up the topic, that’s why I post.

If I’m attending an indult. Heh.

 

[Cor_Jesu]

Because somebody brought up the topic, that’s why I post.

If I’m attending an indult. Heh.

LOL. Shhhhh you can’t attend SSPX masses, they’re evil schismatics! You just need to be :bowdown: TOTALLY OBEDIENT :bowdown:

 

[porthos11]

We’re into our 5th Conciliar pope and I have NO recollection of any even mentioning that the Jews be converted to the Catholic religion.
However, I have heard where the very opposition could be construed.

The present prayer does, but not in the most explicit terms. It does pray that the Jews will “come to the fullness of redemption” which basically means “become Catholic” (we always emphasize that we possess the fullness of the truth).

The present phrasing is pretty covers it for me.

 

[ravenonthecross]

Of course not - as a “race” it would be impossible to condemn it and the Church never has. Our Lord, Our Lady, the Aposltes, etc - all Jews. The Church has always welcomed and prayed for the conversion of those of the Jewish “race”.

What is condemned, however, is the current theology of the Jewish religion, which by definition denies (and has denied for 2000 years) Jesus as Lord and Savior, as the promised Messiah, as the Christ, as the Son of God. That denial of Jesus as the Christ is what is condemned, and what is prayed for is the conversion of those hearts who deny Him.

Here’s the prayer from my Roman Catholic Daily Missal:
Let us pray also for the Jews: that our God and Lord would remove the veil from their hearts: that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let us pray.
Let us kneel down.
Arise.

Almighty and everlasting God, Who drivest not away from Thy mercy even the Jews: hear our prayers which we offer for the blindness of that people: that acknowledging the light of Thy truth, which is Christ, they may be rescued from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God world without end. Amen.
Confusion today notwithstanding, the Church has prayed for 2000 years, prays for today, and will pray for until the last day - that every living soul will convert to Christ for the glory of God and for their own salvation!

AMEN!

Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad.

I would like to know. what particular type of missal do you have? And were would I be able to purchase one?

 

[DustinsDad]

I would like to know. what particular type of missal do you have? And were would I be able to purchase one?

I have Angelus Press’ *Roman Catholic Daily Missal *- which uses the 1962 liturgy. Very good.

Baronius Press has a comperable one as well - though I was able to get the Angelus Press one for a little less.

Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad

 

[JKirkLVNV]

If I’m attending an indult. Heh.

I stand corrected.

 

[chosen_people]

I am reminded of Matthew 27:21-25 (DR):

And the governor answering, said to them: Whether will you of the two to be released unto you? But they said, Barabbas. Pilate saith to them: What shall I do then with Jesus that is called Christ? They say all: Let him be crucified. The governor said to them: Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying: Let him be crucified. And Pilate seeing that he prevailed nothing, but that rather a tumult was made; taking water washed his hands before the people, saying: I am innocent of the blood of this just man; look you to it. And the whole people answering, said: His blood be upon us and our children.

All four of the Gospels make the point that though the Romans carried out the Crucifixion of Christ, it was the Jewish people (lead by the priests) who demanded His death and even accepted full responsibility for it.

It is more than ironic that your posts appear with the picture of Pius ix who stripped Jews under his control of civil and legal rights and forced them to live in a ghetto.

I believe he is pertinent to this discussion in two ways. Among his more outrageous acts, an act that led to world outcry was his permanent kidnapping of a Jewish child from his family, Edgaro Mortara. The fact that this outrageous indecent and immoral act has been defended by various Catholics on this forum is due, in my opinion, to their belief that “the only good Jew is a converted Jew”. I fear no other group of any religion would or should or could hold the “Catholic moral view” of the act as defended and explained in this forum.

Secondly, any referrence to supposed responsibility of any Jews for acts carried out by the Romans against the Jew, Yehoshua bar Yosef, applying to any other Jews, should in all fairness also apply to Catholics of today and in the past for acts of persecutions againt the Jews including of course those of Pius ix.

Finally, to the best of my knowledge the antisemitic referrence to the “perfidious Jews” has been changed in Catholic prayers

 

[rlg94086]

Hi chosen people (person?),

Do Jews (or you may just speak for yourself, as I know that opinions vary depending on orthodoxy) generally believe that Catholic Christians will join righteous Jews in Gan Eden?

If not, what do you believe our fate is?

Pax,

Robert

It is more than ironic that your posts appear with the picture of Pius ix who stripped Jews under his control of civil and legal rights and forced them to live in a ghetto.

I believe he is pertinent to this discussion in two ways. Among his more outrageous acts, an act that led to world outcry was his permanent kidnapping of a Jewish child from his family, Edgaro Mortara. The fact that this outrageous indecent and immoral act has been defended by various Catholics on this forum is due, in my opinion, to their belief that “the only good Jew is a converted Jew”. I fear no other group of any religion would or should or could hold the “Catholic moral view” of the act as defended and explained in this forum.

Secondly, any referrence to supposed responsibility of any Jews for acts carried out by the Romans against the Jew, Yehoshua bar Yosef, applying to any other Jews, should in all fairness also apply to Catholics of today and in the past for acts of persecutions againt the Jews including of course those of Pius ix.

Finally, to the best of my knowledge the antisemitic referrence to the “perfidious Jews” has been changed in Catholic prayers

 

[chosen_people]

Hi chosen people (person?),

Do Jews (or you may just speak for yourself, as I know that opinions vary depending on orthodoxy) generally believe that Catholic Christians will join righteous Jews in Gan Eden?

If not, what do you believe our fate is?

Pax,

Robert

"Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. This has been the majority rule since the days of the Talmud. Judaism generally recognizes that Christians and Moslems worship the same G-d that we do and those who follow the tenets of their religions can be considered righteous in the eyes of G-d.

Contrary to popular belief, Judaism does not maintain that Jews are better than other people. Although we refer to ourselves as G-d’s chosen people, we do not believe that G-d chose the Jews because of any inherent superiority. According to the Talmud (Avodah Zarah 2b), G-d offered the Torah to all the nations of the earth, and the Jews were the only ones who accepted it. The story goes on to say that the Jews were offered the Torah last, and accepted it only because G-d held a mountain over their heads! (In Ex. 19:17, the words generally translated as “at the foot of the mountain” literally mean “underneath the mountain”!) Another traditional story suggests that G-d chose the Jewish nation because they were the lowliest of nations, and their success would be attributed to G-d’s might rather than their own ability. Clearly, these are not the ideas of a people who think they are better than other nations.

Because of our acceptance of Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of G-d, but we lose that special status when we abandon Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that we received from G-d by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus G-d will punish Jews for doing things that would not be a sin for non-Jews.

The Seven Laws of Noah
According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.

The Noahic commandments are binding on all people, because all people are descended from Noah and his family. The 613 mitzvot of the Torah, on the other hand, are only binding on the descendants of those who accepted the commandments at Sinai and upon those who take on the yoke of the commandments voluntarily (by conversion). In addition, the Noahic commandments are applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws. For example, worshipping G-d in the form of a man would constitute idolatry for a Jew; however, according to some sources, the Christian worship of Jesus does not constitute idolatry for non-Jews."

source:jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm

 

[rlg94086]

Contrary to popular belief, Judaism does not maintain that Jews are better than other people. Although we refer to ourselves as G-d’s chosen people, we do not believe that G-d chose the Jews because of any inherent superiority. According to the Talmud (Avodah Zarah 2b), G-d offered the Torah to all the nations of the earth, and the Jews were the only ones who accepted it. The story goes on to say that the Jews were offered the Torah last, and accepted it only because G-d held a mountain over their heads! (In Ex. 19:17, the words generally translated as “at the foot of the mountain” literally mean “underneath the mountain”!) Another traditional story suggests that G-d chose the Jewish nation because they were the lowliest of nations, and their success would be attributed to G-d’s might rather than their own ability. Clearly, these are not the ideas of a people who think they are better than other nations.

The Seven Laws of Noah
According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.

Thanks. That explains why we don’t hear much Jewish evagelization.
chosen people:

For example, worshipping G-d in the form of a man would constitute idolatry for a Jew; however, according to some sources, the Christian worship of Jesus does not constitute idolatry for non-Jews.

Mighty nice of you to give us that concession. Of course, since Jesus Christ is “one in being with the Father,” He couldn’t be considered an idol by definition.

Now, can you understand why we would pray for the conversion of Jews and anyone non-Catholic? We believe the only way to heaven is through Baptism…conversion to the one, holy Church. Now, that said, our Catechism teaches us that God makes the final judgment, not man, so I personally would never tell someone they are damned to hell. However, I would teach what Christ taught us…

6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

We pray for the conversion of others out of love, not hatred.

Regarding Pope Pius IX, I read that his situation with the Jews was “ambiguous.” He actually opened the ghettos, but he later reinstated them. It is unfortunate that Jews were treated in that way, but it did not start with Pius IX. The ghettos, and lack of rights, had existed for many years. The boy you mentioned was taken from his parents because he had been baptized, and at the time the law did not permit Christians from being raised by Jews. This is off-topic, but I’m sure you could start a thread about Pius IX elsewhere on CAF and have a lively discussion.

Pax,

Robert

 

[chosen_people]

Thanks. That explains why we don’t hear much Jewish evagelization.

Mighty nice of you to give us that concession. Of course, since Jesus Christ is “one in being with the Father,” He couldn’t be considered an idol by definition.

Now, can you understand why we would pray for the conversion of Jews and anyone non-Catholic? We believe the only way to heaven is through Baptism…conversion to the one, holy Church. Now, that said, our Catechism teaches us that God makes the final judgment, not man, so I personally would never tell someone they are damned to hell. However, I would teach what Christ taught us…

We pray for the conversion of others out of love, not hatred.

Regarding Pope Pius IX, I read that his situation with the Jews was “ambiguous.” He actually opened the ghettos, but he later reinstated them. It is unfortunate that Jews were treated in that way, but it did not start with Pius IX. The ghettos, and lack of rights, had existed for many years. The boy you mentioned was taken from his parents because he had been baptized, and at the time the law did not permit Christians from being raised by Jews. This is off-topic, but I’m sure you could start a thread about Pius IX elsewhere on CAF and have a lively discussion.

Pax,

Robert

"Conversion
In general, Jews do not try to convert non-Jews to Judaism. In fact, according to halakhah (Jewish Law), rabbis are supposed to make three vigorous attempts to dissuade a person who wants to convert to Judaism.

As the discussion above explained, Jews have a lot of responsibilities that non-Jews do not have. To be considered a good and righteous person in the eyes of G-d, a non-Jew need only follow the seven Noahic commandments, whereas a Jew has to follow all 613 commandments given in the Torah. If the potential convert is not going to follow those extra rules, it’s better for him or her to stay a gentile, and since we as Jews are all responsible for each other, it’s better for us too if that person stayed a gentile. The rabbinically mandated attempt to dissuade a convert is intended to make sure that the prospective convert is serious and willing to take on all this extra responsibility"

salvation is not a
Jewish concept, as it implies a focus on the afterlife, which is not
significant focus of Judaism. In particular, the Christian view of the
question just doesn’t work, for it implies a notion of “hell” for
those that aren’t saved. Jews believe that people are supposed to do
the best they can at being good. We do this because it is the right
thing to do–any personal gain is a side-effect. In fact, focussing on
issues of reward and punishment to some extent mitigates the good one
is doing by tainting it with selfish motives.

Note also that Jews do not assume that God assesses people on some
absolute scale. Jews believe that God expects you to do the best you
have with what you have-- including upbringing, innate abilities, and
the situations you find yourself in–and you have the power to perfect
yourself. Even on this relative scale, though, no one wastes their
entire potential, or fully utilizes every opportunity. So, to whatever
extent one does what they can, they enjoy its effects in the World to
Come.

But again, Judaism is about being good to be good and to have a
healthy relationship with God, man, and oneself–not to be saved. The
role of Jewish law is to provide tools to learn how to do that, and
values that one ought acquire. Judaism teaches that God gave us these
laws because there are subtleties to the ideal that can not be
conveyed in broader strokes. We therefore learn from the subtleties of
the ritual, and the nuances of the inter-personal laws. Often very
fundamental ideas about Jewish values can emerge from same arcane bit
that one would think would never have found application in practice.

Last, there are two sorts of law: there is the covenant at Sinai,
which God made with the Jews (and the other Israelites, the ancestors
of the Northern Kingdom) to define the role of Jews in His plan. All
Judaism asks of Jews is to follow the teachings of God as given in
that covenant (as understood by their particular movement)–for the
traditional Jew, this means to follow the laws given in the written
and oral Torah. The other law is the covenant God made with Noah and
his descendents. We believe that this is simpler law that non-Jews are
expected to follow as well.

 

[rlg94086]

Last, there are two sorts of law: there is the covenant at Sinai,
which God made with the Jews (and the other Israelites, the ancestors
of the Northern Kingdom) to define the role of Jews in His plan. All
Judaism asks of Jews is to follow the teachings of God as given in
that covenant (as understood by their particular movement)–for the
traditional Jew, this means to follow the laws given in the written
and oral Torah. The other law is the covenant God made with Noah and
his descendents. We believe that this is simpler law that non-Jews are
expected to follow as well.

Thank you again. As Catholic Christians, we follow the teachings in the Bible, Tradition and our Magisterium (Bishops). As you would view Catholics and others according to your teachings, we view you and other non-Catholics according to our teachings. Therefore, we pray for your conversion.

Pax,
Robert

 

[chosen_people]

The concept of salvation from sin as it is understood in Christianity has no equivalent in Judaism.

Salvation from sin is unnecessary in Judaism, because Judaism does not believe that mankind is inherently evil or sinful or in need of Divine Intervention in order to escape eternal damnation. In fact, Judaism does not even believe in eternal damnation.

Judaism recognizes that people have sinful impulses, but Judaism also recognizes that people have an inclination to do good and to be good, and that people are able to choose whether to follow the evil inclination or the good inclination.

It is within our ability to be righteous. The Torah itself says, " The word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." (Deut. 30:14). And if we miss the mark, when we fail to fulfill the good laws that G-d has provided for us, then we can obtain forgiveness through prayer, repentence and good deeds.

When the Torah speaks of G-d as our Salvation or our Redeemer, it is not speaking of salvation or redemption from sin; rather, it speaks of salvation from the very concrete, day-to-day problems that we face, such as redemption from slavery in Egypt, or salvation from our enemies in war.

source:jewfaq.org/salvatn.htm

 

[rlg94086]

Okay, but we don’t believe Jews have the fullness of the Truth, because Christ came to establish a New Covenant. So, while your concepts of sin and salvation are interesting, the fact that we are taught that your conversion is necessary is the reason we pray for it. Your beliefs about sin and salvation have no bearing whatsoever, on our prayers for your conversion.

The concept of salvation from sin as it is understood in Christianity has no equivalent in Judaism.

Salvation from sin is unnecessary in Judaism, because Judaism does not believe that mankind is inherently evil or sinful or in need of Divine Intervention in order to escape eternal damnation. In fact, Judaism does not even believe in eternal damnation.

Judaism recognizes that people have sinful impulses, but Judaism also recognizes that people have an inclination to do good and to be good, and that people are able to choose whether to follow the evil inclination or the good inclination.

It is within our ability to be righteous. The Torah itself says, " The word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." (Deut. 30:14). And if we miss the mark, when we fail to fulfill the good laws that G-d has provided for us, then we can obtain forgiveness through prayer, repentence and good deeds.

When the Torah speaks of G-d as our Salvation or our Redeemer, it is not speaking of salvation or redemption from sin; rather, it speaks of salvation from the very concrete, day-to-day problems that we face, such as redemption from slavery in Egypt, or salvation from our enemies in war.

source:jewfaq.org/salvatn.htm

 

[rescath]

There’s nothing “anti-Semitic” here. Move along now.

That prayer in particular on Good Friday is not for all Jews, but only for the ones that did not accept the True Messiah. There are also non-perfidious Jews, i.e., Catholics, who accepted the true faith. We pray for them earlier when we pray for all the Church’s faithful. If the Church had been “anti-Semitic” absit!, why even pray for their conversion? – for a true anti-Semite would wish them ill and not good. And, of course, charges of anti-Semitism against Catholics are patently absurd – since Our Lord God, Whom we worship, was Himself a Jew, as were most of the founders of our Church. Anti-Judaic? certainly, but not Anti-Semitic.

As you can see, the term “perfidous” has the Latin “fides” (for “faith”) as its root. We are praying for the Jews who in effect are now unfaithful to their Covenant with God by having rejected Our Lord. “Perfidous” in Latin means something like “unfaithful”, but with a bit more active – less neutral – sense i.e. they actively broke the faith.

 

[chosen_people]

There’s nothing “anti-Semitic” here. Move along now.

That prayer in particular on Good Friday is not for all Jews, but only for the ones that did not accept the True Messiah. There are also non-perfidious Jews, i.e., Catholics, who accepted the true faith. We pray for them earlier when we pray for all the Church’s faithful. If the Church had been “anti-Semitic” absit!, why even pray for their conversion? – for a true anti-Semite would wish them ill and not good. And, of course, charges of anti-Semitism against Catholics are patently absurd – since Our Lord God, Whom we worship, was Himself a Jew, as were most of the founders of our Church. Anti-Judaic? certainly, but not Anti-Semitic.

As you can see, the term “perfidous” has the Latin “fides” (for “faith”) as its root. We are praying for the Jews who in effect are now unfaithful to their Covenant with God by having rejected Our Lord. “Perfidous” in Latin means something like “unfaithful”, but with a bit more active – less neutral – sense i.e. they actively broke the faith.

I may be wrong but did you just state that all Jews have to do to be accepted and tolerated is to stop being Jews?
Nothing antisemitic in that(!???)

I share your anger to any allusion between the Catholic faith and antisemitism. No one could believe that. If I were you I’d write to everyone of the one million one hundred and twenty thousand web sites dealing with Catholic antisemitism on the internet.

There you go “move along now”.

 

[chosen_people]

Okay, but we don’t believe Jews have the fullness of the Truth, because Christ came to establish a New Covenant. So, while your concepts of sin and salvation are interesting, the fact that we are taught that your conversion is necessary is the reason we pray for it. Your beliefs about sin and salvation have no bearing whatsoever, on our prayers for your conversion.

Your beliefs are yours to hold. My only concern is in as much as those beliefs foster antisemitism and disdain for my people and their religion.