Praying for the dead is useless?

[happy2be]

Why can’t we pray for both? Are our prayers limited? What do you think the prayer, “Rest in Peace” means if not a prayer for the dead? That prayer has been around for 2.000 years. God bless, Memaw

Only those who die in Christ will rest in peace. One has either accepted the testimony of Jesus Christ himself or not…there is no middle ground.

We live once and then we die - once we have parted from this life no prayers “offered” on our behalf will change our eternal destiny.

We will either go to be with the Lord in spirit and await the resurrection (or re-joining) of our bodies at the appointed time…

or we will go to the place reserved for those who have refused the free gift of salvation offered by the Father thru the blood of Jesus.

Those who have rejected the free gift of salvation will be raised at the appointed time to face the White throne judgement and be cast into the lake of fire. This is the 2nd death that believers do not have to fear.

 

[happy2be]

COMPLETE payment for my sins, does that mean I can sin as much as I please in this life with the supreme confidence that Heaven shall be my reward?

.

Of course not - if one believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (fully human and fully divine) that He was sent into the world by the Father to be atoning sacrifice for sin. If one believes that Jesus died on the cross as full and complete payment for ones sins…that He was buried and that He rose again on the 3rd day to conquer death. Then in this process one also has to acknowledge that if I need a savior - it is because I am sinful. There is a true repentance that takes place in this process.

Jesus Himself promised us that He was going ahead to prepare a place for us, and that He would send the Holy Spirit as a guarantee (or sealing) of our salvation. The Holy spirit comes to live in us… and part of the many wonderful works the Holy Spirit does in our lives is continue to convict us of sin and areas of our lives that need change.

To assume that a Christian who does not subscribe to the doctrine of purgatory continues to blatantly sin and not seek forgiveness is incorrect.

 

[happy2be]

Sorry to burst your bubble but…

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. )

This verse is Jesus speaking in regard to “the unforgiveable sin” that is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And has nothing to do with a doctrine about purgatory at all!

I have got to go now - but I will address later along with the other scripture you have quoted.
Regards,
Happy2be

 

[onenow1]

This verse is Jesus speaking in regard to “the unforgiveable sin” that is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And has nothing to do with a doctrine about purgatory at all!

Hi, happy, Did you miss the last part of the verse in Matthew about in this world or the next ? Nevertheless, this may interwest you ? Since the Gates of Heaven were closed from the time of Adam and Eve, and no one entered, John 3:13, where did all of the Biblical Prophets and heros go until the Gates were reopened at the Crucifixion? Surely they could not have been in hell, as that is permanent and no one leaves there. Moses and Elias appeared to Jesus before the Crucifixion, Matthew 17:3. From where did they come? Limbo? Sheol? Purgatory? There had to have been a third place, right? If there was a third place then, why not a third place now?

IMHO, when Jesus said Father forgive them doesen’t it make sense;Jesus had the dead in mind before he expired ?

God Bless
onenow1

 

[Randy_Carson]

Only those who die in Christ will rest in peace. One has either accepted the testimony of Jesus Christ himself or not…there is no middle ground.

We live once and then we die - once we have parted from this life no prayers “offered” on our behalf will change our eternal destiny.

We will either go to be with the Lord in spirit and await the resurrection (or re-joining) of our bodies at the appointed time…

or we will go to the place reserved for those who have refused the free gift of salvation offered by the Father thru the blood of Jesus.

Those who have rejected the free gift of salvation will be raised at the appointed time to face the White throne judgement and be cast into the lake of fire. This is the 2nd death that believers do not have to fear.

Every word of what you just said is true. It’s just incomplete. Let’s start by clearing up some misconceptions:

Purgatory is a temporary, finite process of purification for those who die in a state of grace and friendship with God (cf. Romans 11:22), but who still have the vestiges of temporal effects due to sin, inordinate attachment to creatures, and whose will is not fully united with God’s will. This process involves suffering (St. Paul uses the analogy of fire to emphasize this), as God’s fiery love “burns” away all impurities that may remain. Once this is complete, the soul enters into God’s presence, the beatific vision, in which the perfect bliss of beholding Him face-to-face lasts forever.

Five Myths of Purgatory

Myth #1: Purgatory is a Catholic, man-made tradition.

Fact: Purgatory is a formally declared doctrine of the Catholic Church—part of the deposit of faith “once for all handed down to the holy ones” (Jude 3) since the time of the Apostles. The word “purgatory” is not found in scripture; neither is the word “trinity”. However, the idea of purgatory is found explicitly stated in scripture and in the writings of the Early Church Fathers and was taught by the early Church councils.

Myth #2: Purgatory is a place where we get a “second chance.” By getting it right in Purgatory, we get to go to heaven.

Fact: At the moment of death, our final destiny is already established; we are bound for heaven or hell, and there is no “second chance’ to get it right in order to enter heaven. Instead, the invitation to heaven has already been issued. Only the “clean-up” remains before putting on one’s wedding garments.

Myth #3: Purgatory is a place where people have to pay for their own sins.

Fact: There is nothing that the person in purgatory can do to “burn off” the impurities in their soul. Only Jesus can take away the eternal effect of sin that a person has committed. However, there are temporal effects of sin that need to be removed.

Myth #4: Purgatory is for those who are not bad enough for hell but not good enough for heaven.

Fact: There are only two final destinations: heaven or hell. There is no third option. However, for some, there may be something that prevents their immediate entrance into heaven. Purgatory is the process by which any impurities in the soul are purged completely.

Myth #5: Purgatory was invented as money-making scheme through the sale of indulgences.

Fact: The Catholic Church never sanctioned the sale of indulgences, and the actions of a few priests who were overly zealous in their fund-raising activities were not condoned by the Church.

 

[Memaw]

Every word of what you just said is true. It’s just incomplete. Let’s start by clearing up some misconceptions:

Purgatory is a temporary, finite process of purification for those who die in a state of grace and friendship with God (cf. Romans 11:22), but who still have the vestiges of temporal effects due to sin, inordinate attachment to creatures, and whose will is not fully united with God’s will. This process involves suffering (St. Paul uses the analogy of fire to emphasize this), as God’s fiery love “burns” away all impurities that may remain. Once this is complete, the soul enters into God’s presence, the beatific vision, in which the perfect bliss of beholding Him face-to-face lasts forever.

Five Myths of Purgatory

Myth #1: Purgatory is a Catholic, man-made tradition.

Fact: Purgatory is a formally declared doctrine of the Catholic Church—part of the deposit of faith “once for all handed down to the holy ones” (Jude 3) since the time of the Apostles. The word “purgatory” is not found in scripture; neither is the word “trinity”. However, the idea of purgatory is found explicitly stated in scripture and in the writings of the Early Church Fathers and was taught by the early Church councils.

Myth #2: Purgatory is a place where we get a “second chance.” By getting it right in Purgatory, we get to go to heaven.

Fact: At the moment of death, our final destiny is already established; we are bound for heaven or hell, and there is no “second chance’ to get it right in order to enter heaven. Instead, the invitation to heaven has already been issued. Only the “clean-up” remains before putting on one’s wedding garments.

Myth #3: Purgatory is a place where people have to pay for their own sins.

Fact: There is nothing that the person in purgatory can do to “burn off” the impurities in their soul. Only Jesus can take away the eternal effect of sin that a person has committed. However, there are temporal effects of sin that need to be removed.

Myth #4: Purgatory is for those who are not bad enough for hell but not good enough for heaven.

Fact: There are only two final destinations: heaven or hell. There is no third option. However, for some, there may be something that prevents their immediate entrance into heaven. Purgatory is the process by which any impurities in the soul are purged completely.

Myth #5: Purgatory was invented as money-making scheme through the sale of indulgences.

Fact: The Catholic Church never sanctioned the sale of indulgences, and the actions of a few priests who were overly zealous in their fund-raising activities were not condoned by the Church.

Thank you Randy for the wonderful explanation. I pray that all will come to understand the TRUTH. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Goya]

Only those who die in Christ will rest in peace. One has either accepted the testimony of Jesus Christ himself or not…there is no middle ground.

We live once and then we die - once we have parted from this life no prayers “offered” on our behalf will change our eternal destiny.

We will either go to be with the Lord in spirit and await the resurrection (or re-joining) of our bodies at the appointed time…

or we will go to the place reserved for those who have refused the free gift of salvation offered by the Father thru the blood of Jesus.

Those who have rejected the free gift of salvation will be raised at the appointed time to face the White throne judgement and be cast into the lake of fire. This is the 2nd death that believers do not have to fear.

Prayers offered on someone’s behalf won’t necessarily change anyone’s eternal destiny.

But the One to whom the prayers/petitions are offered, may ‘change’ anyone’s eternal destiny, as He may change what He sees fit to, because He may do what He pleases, by His Omn(name removed by moderator)otence, and infinite mercy, according to His Will.

Protestants–having championed as their cause, Chirst’s words, to lead souls *away from *the Church He established and bequethed to us, and away from the Sacraments He instituted–and therefore away from Christ Himself (in the Eucharist)… best hope there is a purgatory.

The good news is, y’all are included in the souls in purgatory for whom we pray for tody–‘All Souls day’–as part of the ‘faithful departed’.

One day you will likely appreciate our effort in this regard.

 

[JonNC]

SINCE we don’t know whether those departed will end up in Heaven or Hell, there is always the hope that they will be saved, and asking for God’s mercy for their Soul is a laudable and necessary thing to do.

This! No prayer is “useless”.

Jon

 

[rfournier103]

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory.

Of course we have this passage from the Old Testament; and of course Happy2be will reject this because he erroneously believes this is not Inspired Scripture.

To FreakyLocz14, your Protestant grandfather doesn’t have all the information. YOUR Bible has a complete Old Testament with all the Books and all their parts. There are MANY threads here about why the difference between the Protestant and Catholic Canons, but that’s not what’s up for debate here.

Nothing unclean can enter Heaven, right? Right. We are all sinners, right? Right. So, if we’re all sinners, how does ANYONE get to heaven? We need to be purified, right? Right.

A few passages from Scripture to help explain to your grandfather…

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

(Thanks to www.johnsalza.com for assistance)

There’s a lot of Scriptural evidence to support the Doctrine of Purgatory, FreakyLocz14. Please don’t let your grandfather or a handful of anti-Catholic trolls convince you otherwise. Pray for your loved ones with confidence. The peace of Christ be with you.

 

[Memaw]

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory.

Of course we have this passage from the Old Testament; and of course Happy2be will reject this because he erroneously believes this is not Inspired Scripture.

To FreakyLocz14, your Protestant grandfather doesn’t have all the information. YOUR Bible has a complete Old Testament with all the Books and all their parts. There are MANY threads here about why the difference between the Protestant and Catholic Canons, but that’s not what’s up for debate here.

Nothing unclean can enter Heaven, right? Right. We are all sinners, right? Right. So, if we’re all sinners, how does ANYONE get to heaven? We need to be purified, right? Right.

A few passages from Scripture to help explain to your grandfather…

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

(Thanks to www.johnsalza.com for assistance)

There’s a lot of Scriptural evidence to support the Doctrine of Purgatory, FreakyLocz14. Please don’t let your grandfather or a handful of anti-Catholic trolls convince you otherwise. Pray for your loved ones with confidence. The peace of Christ be with you.

Prayers for the dead don’t “free” them from sin, they have to repent of them before they die. But it does help atone(repair the damage done by them), for their sins. God Bless, Memaw

 

[rfournier103]

Prayers for the dead don’t “free” them from sin, they have to repent of them before they die. But it does help atone(repair the damage done by them), for their sins. God Bless, Memaw

Of course. I did not mean to imply that repentance was not required. ALL Christians know that repentance is a must.

Obviously there are non-Catholics and anti-Catholics who will assume that we don’t think that repentance is needed, but we all know that it is. I apologize for the oversight. I’m a little sleep deprived lately because of the World Series and not at the top of my game…

 

[FreakyLocz14]

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory.

Of course we have this passage from the Old Testament; and of course Happy2be will reject this because he erroneously believes this is not Inspired Scripture.

To FreakyLocz14, your Protestant grandfather doesn’t have all the information. YOUR Bible has a complete Old Testament with all the Books and all their parts. There are MANY threads here about why the difference between the Protestant and Catholic Canons, but that’s not what’s up for debate here.

Nothing unclean can enter Heaven, right? Right. We are all sinners, right? Right. So, if we’re all sinners, how does ANYONE get to heaven? We need to be purified, right? Right.

A few passages from Scripture to help explain to your grandfather…

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

(Thanks to www.johnsalza.com for assistance)

There’s a lot of Scriptural evidence to support the Doctrine of Purgatory, FreakyLocz14. Please don’t let your grandfather or a handful of anti-Catholic trolls convince you otherwise. Pray for your loved ones with confidence. The peace of Christ be with you.

Protestants believe that accepting Jesus Christ as one’s personal Lord and Savior purifies them off all of their past, present, and future sins.

 

[tstrong728]

Protestants believe that accepting Jesus Christ as one’s personal Lord and Savior purifies them off all of their past, present, and future sins.

Not all Protestants believe as you do.

 

[JonNC]

Protestants believe that accepting Jesus Christ as one’s personal Lord and Savior purifies them off all of their past, present, and future sins.

1 John 1:9 ** If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There seems here a bit of a quid pro quo, don’t you think? I know I am justified by grace through faith. I know also that I remain a sinner, and I need to avail myself of the means of grace. I know that if I confess, I will be forgiven.
I also know I have the free will to not avail myself of grace.

Jon

 

[johnnyc176]

asianews.it/news-en/Pope%…ven-29414.html

Pope: the communion of saints, an unbreakable bond between us and those who are in Purgatory or in Heaven

Vatican City ( AsiaNews) - There is " a deep and indissoluble bond between those who are still pilgrims in this world",“the souls in purgatory and those who are already in Heaven .” A “shared union” that should propel us to seek God’s help and that of our brothers in times of “insecurity, loss and even doubts on our journey of faith”, which “we have all experienced”, even the Pope, “none of this should surprise us because we are human beings, we are fragile, we have limits, all we have”.

The meaning of the “communion of saints”, a "very beautiful reality of our faith " was illustrated today by Pope St. Francis to 80 thousand people present in St Peter’s Square for the general audience.

In his catechesis he pointed out that with the “communion of saints” the Catechism refers to two realities: communion with holy things and communion with holy people. This second meaning is “one of the most comforting truths of our faith, because it reminds us that we are not alone, that there is a communion of life between all those who belong to Christ. A communion that is born of faith, in fact, the term saints refers to those who believe in the Lord Jesus and are incorporated in Christ through Baptism in the Church”.

“The Church, in its deepest truth is in communion with God, intimacy with God, a communion of love with Christ and with the Father in the Holy Spirit , which continues in a fraternal communion. This relationship between Jesus and the Father is the” matrix "of the bond between us Christians: if we are intimately included in this “matrix” in this ardent furnace of love that is the Trinity, then we can become truly one heart and one soul among us, because the love of God burns our selfishness , our prejudices, our internal and external divisions . God’s love burns even our sins. "

“If we are rooted in the source of Love, which is God, then there is also a reciprocal movement : from my brothers to God, the experience of fraternal communion with God leads us to be united among ourselves, it leads us to be united with God, in this connection with God who is our Father . Our faith needs the support of others, especially in difficult times. And if we are united, the faith is strong. How beautiful it is to support one another in this wonderful adventure of faith! I say this because the tendency to retreat into the private has also influenced the religious sphere, so that it is often hard to ask for the spiritual help of those who share the Christian experience with us. Who among us - everybody, everybody! - who among us has not experienced insecurity, loss and even doubts on their journey of faith ? Everyone! We’ve all experienced this, me too. Everyone. It is part of the journey of faith, it is part of our lives. This should not surprise us, because we are human beings, marked by fragility and limitations. We are all weak, we all have limits: do not panic . We all we have them”.

"However, - continued the Pope - in these difficult times it is necessary to trust in God , through prayer, and at the same time, it is important to find the courage and the humility to be open to others and ask for help, to ask for a hand : ‘Give me a hand , I have this problem.’ How many times have we done this? And then, we overcame the problem and found God again. In this communion - communion which means ’ common union ', all united , common union - in this communion we are a big family, all of us, where all the components help and support each other . "

The communion of the saints, then, “goes beyond the earthly life, goes beyond death and lasts forever. This union between us goes beyond and continues in the afterlife. It is a spiritual union that comes from Baptism, that is not broken by death, but, thanks to that Christ who is risen, is destined to find its fulfillment in eternal life. There is a deep and indissoluble bond between those who are still pilgrims in this world, among us, and those who have crossed the threshold of death into eternity. All the baptized here on earth, the souls in Purgatory and all the saints who are already in heaven form one big family . This communion between earth and heaven is realized especially in the prayer of intercession”.

"This beauty, the memory of the faith: it is our reality, that makes us brothers, that accompanies us on the journey of life , and we will meet again up there in Heaven . Let’s make this journey with confidence, joy. A Christian must be joyful, with the joy of having so many baptized brothers and sisters who walk with us, and even with the help of our brothers and sisters on this journey towards Heaven, and also with the help of brothers and sisters who are in Heaven and Jesus who pray for us. Move forward on this road , and with joy . "

 

[happy2be]

To rfournier103: to clarify I am not a male but a female

To RandyCarson: thanks but I actually have a very thorough understanding of the RCC teaching on purgatory. Having been raised in a devout Catholic home, attending Catholic Schools, attending a Carmelite Monestary for many years as part of an Adult faith formation group, my own personal study of the Catechism at a number of Church facilities, I was an RCIA sponsor and worked within Youth work/ministries with the RCC also.
I very much believed that one needed to grow in ones faith and took that responsibility on to gain a deeper understanding of my churches teaching.

I do not believe Faith is hereditary and we must all set off on our own journey at some point in our life to discover the truth…

So you see, I am not an “ignorant protestant” at all…nor am a Catholic who has little understanding of the teachings of ones own church/faith.

I actively sought out the truth and to learn and understand Jesus’ teaching…and indeed I did find it! As Jesus said…
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:30-37
I have some more to write, I just did not want this post to be too long winded!

 

[Memaw]

To rfournier103: to clarify I am not a male but a female

To RandyCarson: thanks but I actually have a very thorough understanding of the RCC teaching on purgatory. Having been raised in a devout Catholic home, attending Catholic Schools, attending a Carmelite Monestary for many years as part of an Adult faith formation group, my own personal study of the Catechism at a number of Church facilities, I was an RCIA sponsor and worked within Youth work/ministries with the RCC also.
I very much believed that one needed to grow in ones faith and took that responsibility on to gain a deeper understanding of my churches teaching.

I do not believe Faith is hereditary and we must all set off on our own journey at some point in our life to discover the truth…

So you see, I am not an “ignorant protestant” at all…nor am a Catholic who has little understanding of the teachings of ones own church/faith.

I actively sought out the truth and to learn and understand Jesus’ teaching…and indeed I did find it! As Jesus said…
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:30-37
I have some more to write, I just did not want this post to be too long winded!

You missed something along the way or you would know that belief in Purgatory is a Doctrine of the Catholic Church and must be believed by all Catholics. And it is defiantly Scriptural, God Bless, Memaw

 

[happy2be]

I am preparing a response…but it does take time and I am a mum of several young kids, run a farm and work part time…so will get back here when I can.

Yes I understand it is doctrine of the Catholic church…as I mentioned I am not ignorant in such matters.

As such I left the church because of a number of differences I believed between the TRUTH and certain doctrines of the church.

I am a woman of integrity and could not remain in the pews of a church where I believed I stood in contrast to significant teachings of that particular church. I did not want to be a hypocrite or one of those Catholics who remain in the church but disagree with basic teachings/doctrines of.

I hold no hate against the RCC and have never had any “bad” experiences personally as some might think also.

Sorry - I will reply at greater length and depth when time allows.
Kind regards.

 

[happy2be]

To onenow1:
I am happy to give an answer to your question…prior to Jesus Christ, all who died entered Sheol/Hades. It was made up of at least 2 compartments….a place of comfort (referred to as Paradise or Abraham’s bosom) and a place of torment.

Those who died faithful to God in the OT times went to the comfort section of Sheol….to await the coming of the Messiah who would be born and who would die for all mankind so that they could be reconciled with the Father.
Those who rejected God prior to Jesus were to be retained in the torment section of Sheol /Hades.

A clear picture of this is also given to us by Jesus in regarding the story of Lazarus and the rich man. (you can read about this for yourself in Luke 16:19-31)

When Jesus died on the cross and was buried he descended into Sheol/ Hades where he preached to the captives. That is – to those in the comfort section of Sheol…those waiting in paradise or Abraham’s Bosom.

Remember on the cross when the thief acknowledged Jesus and He promised the thief “Today you will be with me in paradise”. (Luke 23:42-43)

After Jesus rose on the 3rd day when he appeared to Mary (see John 20)
He said “ do not touch me for I have yet to go to my Father….”

Jesus according to the custom of the high priest offering a sacrifice in the Holy Place did not want his body to be touched by human hands before He had entered the Holy place in the Heavenly temple to anoint it with His own blood.

Jesus was to be the one and only perfect and atoning and reconciling sacrifice for our sins…once He anointed the holy place in the Heavenly temple He returned to appear to his Disciples and then allowed them to touch Him…

He appeared to them a number of times over a period of time prior to His Ascension into Heaven to then be seated at the right hand of the Father.

The gates of heaven now open – as you have said!!! How wonderful!!

Because the gates of Heaven are now opened to those who believe in Jesus – who He is, His testimony – that He is the Son of God, sent by the Father to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins…that He died on the cross, descended to the grave, rose from the dead (conquering sin and death) and ascended to the Father…to those who wash their robes clean in the blood of the Lamb……we can now be reconciled with God…we can now accept the free offer of salvation…

The comfort side of Sheol/Hades is now empty…those captives have been released into Heaven….the torment side of Sheol/ Hades still exists and is also referred to today as hell. This is where those who rejected God prior to Jesus are held…and those who since Christ have rejected God and Jesus as the Saviour are held.

Towards the end of the book of Revelation we can read where those held in this place will be raised to undergo judgement at the Great White Throne.

Because they have died in their sins – and the wages of sin is death – because they have not accepted the free offer of salvation found only in the blood shed by Jesus – they will be found wanting…and so will be cast into the Lake of Fire (along with death, Hades, Satan, the antichrist etc etc).

Sorry if this is long winded – but just wanted to explain the purpose of Sheol/ Hades prior to the coming of the Messiah….and how the gates of heaven have now been opened to us by the atoning and reconciling sacrifice of Jesus.

Now when one dies there are only 2 options….if one has rejected God and Jesus as the Saviour and the only name by which man can be saved – then one will be sent to the torment side of Sheol (or hell) to await the Great White Throne judgement – and the 2nd death that occurs in the Lake of Fire.

OR if one accepts the testimony of Jesus Himself – if we believe that he truly is the Son of God, sent by the Father to be the atoning and reconciling sacrifice for all our sins…if we repent of our sins and ask for forgiveness thru the blood shed by Jesus – then we can avail ourselves the free gift of salvation – when we die – our spirits will go to be with the Lord….and we will be reunited with our glorifed bodies at the appointed time.

I can supply many scriptural verses to support all of this and am happy to do so….because Gods Word does not contradict itself.

Purgatory is not needed because there is nothing you can do (via works or suffering in purgatory) to earn entry into Heaven – that is given to us freely by God thru Jesus.

To suggest that Jesus Christ’s suffering and sacrifice of His life is not enough to completely cleanse you from sin and stain and “temporary effects of sin” is quite frankly nothing short of blasphemy!

Either He is the perfect sacrifice or He is not……to say He is and then also say you need to be purged further of any stain/effects etc that one has not done here on Earth is not based on the TRUTH.

I am not against traditions and church doctrines provided they do not contradict what is given to us clearly in Gods Word (scripture).

The doctrine of Purgatory does contradict the “complete” nature of salvation offered to us thru Jesus by our Heavenly Father.

I shall address other comments at another time when I have an opportunity.

 

[Abu]

The fact that Christ wrote nothing, and the only reason we have the Bible is because the Catholic Church defined and mandated what writings of Her members in the N.T. constitute the Word of God as the Sacred Scriptures, is the first truth.

The second truth is the teaching of Sacred Scripture:

1. Never did Jesus command any of His Apostles to write anything, but to go and teach under the Primacy of St Peter.
2. It is only through His Church that anyone can have the Sacred Scriptures to mangle or to lead him to Christ’s Church.
3. The result of private interpretation has been tens of thousands of differing and confused “interpretations” among those outside of His Church.
4. St Paul’s epistles have “some things hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.” [2Pet 3:16]
5. “…no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man but, but holy men of God spoken as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” [2Pet 1: 20-21].
6. The Ethiopian eunuch reading Isaiah was asked by Philip who had been moved by the Holy Spirit – “Do you understand what you are reading? And he said, ‘How can I unless some man show me?’ And he asked Philip to come and sit with him.” [Acts 8:30-31].

Of course Christ established His Church, which defined what books are the inspired Word of God, no more nor less. Only She has the authority to interpret what She has given the world.

Deprived of some of the Sacred Scriptures, the poster lacks the truth:
The doctrine of Purgatory is found in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”

Essentially: Christ died to REDEEM us – to open heaven. Whether we are saved – achieve salvation – depends upon our cooperation with Him in life and at death as St Paul confirms, but of which the poster seems blissfully unaware:
“Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.” (Phil 2:12).

St Paul is very clear: **“I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” **(Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience.

Jesus redeemed us (opened Heaven), we have to play our part. If anyone was to be saved your way it would have been Paul! But he clearly showed the error of that: “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

“It is not those who say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Mt 7:21).
When asked “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-17).