Praying for the Dead Proved from Scripture

[Randy_Carson]

Protestant Scholars on Onesiphorous

Alfred Plummer (Anglican)

Certainly the balance of probability is decidedly in favour of the view that Onesiphorus was already dead when St. Paul wrote these words. . . . he here speaks of “the house of Onesiphorus” in connexion with the present, and of Onesiphorus himself only in connexion with the past. . . . it is not easy to explain this reference in two places to the household of Onesiphorus, if he himself was still alive. In all the other cases the individual and not the household is mentioned. . . . There is also the character of the Apostle’s prayer. Why does he confine his desires respecting the requital of Onesiphorus’ kindness to the day of judgment? . . . This again is thoroughly intelligible, if Onesiphorus is already dead.

. . . there seems to be equal absence of serious reason for doubting that the words in question constitute a prayer. . . .

Having thus concluded that, according to the more probable and reasonable view, the passage before us contains a prayer offered up by the Apostle on behalf of one who is dead, we seem to have obtained his sanction, and therefore the sanction of Scripture, for using similar prayers ourselves. . . .

This passage may be quoted as reasonable evidence that the death of a person does not extinguish our right or our duty to pray for him: but it ought not be quoted as authority for such prayers on behalf of the dead as are very different in kind from the one of which we have an example here. Many other kinds of intercession for the dead may be reasonable and allowable; but this passage proves no more than that some kinds of intercession for the dead are allowable; viz., those in which we pray that God will have mercy at the day of judgment on those who have done good to us and others, during their life upon earth (Alfred Plummer (1841-1926) (Anglican): The Expositor’s Bible (edited by W. Robertson Nicoll), The Pastoral Epistles, London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1891, pp. 324-326).

James Maurice Wilson (1836-1931) (Anglican)

We have, therefore, the sanction of St. Paul for remembering inn our prayers, and interceding for, those who have now passed into the other world . . . (Truths New and Old, Westminster: Archibald Constable & Co., 1900, p. 141)

Sydney Charles Gayford (Anglican):

. . . the most satisfactory explanation is that Onesiphorus was dead. . . . (The Future State, New York: Edwin S. Gorham, second edition, 1905, pp. 56-57)

And so we may hold with some confidence that we have in this passage the authority of an Apostle in praying for the welfare of the departed. (ibid.)

John Henry Bernard (1860-1927) (Anglican)

On the whole then it seems probable that Onesiphorus was dead when St. Paul prayed on his behalf . . . (The Pastoral Epistles, Cambridge University Press, 1899, p. 114:

Donald Guthrie (1915-1992) (Anglican)

Since it is assumed by many scholars that Onesiphorus was by now dead, the question has been raised whether this sanctions prayer for the dead. Roman catholic theologians claim that it does. Spicq, for instance, sees here an example of prayer for the dead unique in the New Testament. Some Protestants agree with this judgment and cite the Jewish precedent of 2 Macc 12:43-45 . . . (The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, The Pastoral Epistles: An Introduction and Commentary, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Eerdmans Pub. Co., 2nd edition, 1990, p. 148)

William Barclay (1907-1978) (Presbyterian / Church of Scotland)

. . . there are many who feel that the implication is that Onesiphorus is dead. It is for his family that Paul first prays. Now, if he was dead, this passage shows us Paul praying for the dead, for it shows him praying that Onesiphorus may find mercy on the last day. (The Letters to Timothy, Titus, and Philemon, Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 3rd edition, 2003, p. 175)

J. N. D. Kelly (1909-1997) (Anglican)

On the assumption, which must be correct, that Onesiphorus was dead when the words were written, we have here an example, unique in the N.T., of Christian prayer for the departed. . . . the commendation of the dead man to the divine mercy. There is nothing surprising in Paul’s use of such a prayer, for intercession for the dead had been sanctioned in Pharisaic circles at any rate since the date of 2 Macc 12:43-45 (middle of first century B.C.?). Inscriptions in the Roman catacombs and elsewhere prove that the practice established itself among Christians from very early times. ( A Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles, London: A&C Black, 1963, p. 171)

 

[po18guy]

Very difficult to do. Some of the saints have achieved this kind of prayer, but I am far from it, I’m afraid. However, I remain convinced by St. Teresa of Avila and St. John Paul II that such prayer should be considered the norm and not the exception. In fact, I’ve just begun reading the** Interior Castle** in the hopes of learning more about prayer.

The Fulfillment of All Desire by Ralph Martin covers this topic in great depth and I highly recommend it to all.

Might just be me, but I think that wmscott was hinting at prayer for the saints, i.e. those who had passed on.

As to the subject at hand, we must keep this in the light of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 in which Paul writes that:

1. After death,
2. On the day of judgment
3. Before the seat of Christ,
4. One’s work (NOT faith!) is tested.
5. During that test, one’s work may burn up, not being of gold or even silver.
6. Yet, even if it does burn up, that person is still saved!
7. But saved only as though passing through fire.

And, since neither life nor death can sever us from the love of God (Romans 8:38), prayers offered for those being “saved, but only as through fire” would certainly seem appropriate. They remain members of the Body of Christ, and no part of Christ’s Body is dead to the Father (ref. Mt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27, Lk. 20:38).

 

[Peter_J]

steido01 and Non Serviam,

So I gather that you aren’t convinced that St Paul would say " Lord grant him to find mercy" as well as “may the Lord grant him to find mercy”?

 

[Non_Serviam]

steido01 and Non Serviam,

So I gather that you aren’t convinced that St Paul would say " Lord grant him to find mercy" as well as “may the Lord grant him to find mercy”?

I can’t speak for steido01, but that describes my thoughts. It is important to note that the passage also doesn’t convince me that he wouldn’t say it. Leaves me in the “may be possible, but without more evidence, I can’t be certain enough to go along with some of the associated practices.”

Back to you, if you didn’t believe Paul would say " Lord grant him to find mercy" or were unsure, would this passage alone be proof enough to convince you that he would say it? If not, what else would you think was reasonable evidence to seek?

 

[steido01]

I can’t speak for steido01, but that describes my thoughts. It is important to note that the passage also doesn’t convince me that he wouldn’t say it. Leaves me in the “may be possible, but without more evidence, I can’t be certain enough to go along with some of the associated practices.”

Back to you, if you didn’t believe Paul would say " Lord grant him to find mercy" or were unsure, would this passage alone be proof enough to convince you that he would say it? If not, what else would you think was reasonable evidence to seek?

This. And any sort of “well, the Church has ruled…” argument just seems arbitrary.

 

[po18guy]

I can’t speak for steido01, but that describes my thoughts. It is important to note that the passage also doesn’t convince me that he wouldn’t say it. Leaves me in the “may be possible, but without more evidence, I can’t be certain enough to go along with some of the associated practices.”

Back to you, if you didn’t believe Paul would say " Lord grant him to find mercy" or were unsure, would this passage alone be proof enough to convince you that he would say it? If not, what else would you think was reasonable evidence to seek?

This. And any sort of “well, the Church has ruled…” argument just seems arbitrary.

The problem for non-Catholics seems to be coming to grips with the concept - extremely biblical - that the Church has the absolute power of binding and loosing. Loosing the post-Abrahamic requirement of circumcision is one such example. I don’t hear anyone grumbling about that decision! The Acts 15 circumcision letter to the Gentiles essentially said “the Church has ruled…”, which did not appear arbitrary to the Gentiles. And, both of you accept that.

Yet, this is not a matter of the Church declaring anything, as prayer for the dead was a Jewish practice before Christ. It is a matter of the Church recognizing and preserving/perpetuating revealed truth from the spiritual realm. It does not matter one bit if you think that 2 Maccabees was not inspired. Prayer for the dead was offered at the temple in Jerusalem.

If one requires something to have been written down before they will believe, how shallow will the resulting theology and spirituality be? Especially since the bible very clearly states, in numerous places, that it is incomplete and only a partial record. I risk offending here, but the Gospels are essentially the inspired Cliff’s Notes of Christ.

Jesus taught and preached almost every day of those three years. Go through the Gospels. Do you find 1,095 days described in those pages? I am guessing three weeks to a month if added up.

 

[Peter_J]

I can’t speak for steido01, but that describes my thoughts. It is important to note that the passage also doesn’t convince me that he wouldn’t say it. Leaves me in the “may be possible, but without more evidence, I can’t be certain enough to go along with some of the associated practices.”

Back to you, if you didn’t believe Paul would say " Lord grant him to find mercy" or were unsure, would this passage alone be proof enough to convince you that he would say it? If not, what else would you think was reasonable evidence to seek?

Maybe not absolute proof, but I think it’s hard to believe that he would say the one and not the other.

This. And any sort of “well, the Church has ruled…” argument just seems arbitrary.

Well, I haven’t really said anything like that.

Of course, with the Internet you can find almost any statement somewhere. But don’t quote me, I haven’t finished reading the Internet yet.

 

[rcwitness]

Point: those who have passed from time into eternity are fully in the hands of a loving and merciful God Who also possesses perfect justice. Under perfect justice, none of us has any hope for an eternity in His presence.

This is a great statement for Catholics and non-Catholics to keep in mind when discerning the meaning of prayers for the departed.

Just as the faith of the paralytic’s friends healed the man on the pallet, so also does the faith (and pleading) of a man’s friends carry the potential to bring healing to his spirit once he faces the ultimate judgment. Otherwise, God is either not merciful, or not just. These are impossibilities in Christian belief.

And the interesting point of this story is that Jesus first and foremost, forgave the man his sins. Were his sins able to be forgiving because of his friends faith alone? No, and these men certainly did not have that faith. They merely wanted to bring their friend before a Godly man to be healed. Yet, they most likely, were of the impression that forgiveness of sins is necessary for one to receive a miraculous healing. And if the friends did not bring the man to Jesus, he would not have been made subject to Jesus’ personal forgiveness and healing.

Another passage to keep in mind regarding this topic is from 1st John…

1 John 5:13-17 (RSVCE)

13 I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God[a] will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

 

[po18guy]

And the interesting point of this story is that Jesus first and foremost, forgave the man his sins.

In each and every case in scripture where Jesus forgave sins, He told the sinner that their sins were forgiven. Their ears heard those comforting words. Do those who confess directly to God ever hear such?

Were his sins able to be forgiving because of his friends faith alone?

Well, to me it appears so, actually.

Mark 2:4-5

4 And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him; and when they had made an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic lay. 5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”

It appears that He saw the faith of the friends by their actions - the work they did in bring the man to Jesus. Compare this to James 2:18:

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

The men carrying the pallet showed Jesus their faith by their works - the two are inseparable in a Christian. There is no direct mention of faith on the part of the paralytic. This same principle is applied by the Church to the Baptism of infants. The faith of those who love and care for the incapacitated can bring forgiveness of sins. The Orthodox (naturally) as well as numerous protestant denominations also believe this. Those who do not are a recent exception.

 

[rcwitness]

• the work they did in bring the man to Jesus. No problem friend. My question of whether the paralytic’s sins were forgiven him by his friend’s faith alone was more to do with your previous post…

Point: those who have passed from time into eternity are fully in the hands of a loving and merciful God Who also possesses perfect justice. Under perfect justice, none of us has any hope for an eternity in His presence.

Its always the mercy of God which bringst forgiveness (JESUS:heart into the world, or the netherworld. The paralytic’s friends contained a faith with action, a faith which overcame obsticles, and that’s what I meant when I said these friends did not contain a faith alone. They were moved into good works by believing God’s mercy was available for their friend.

But yes, It was for the faith of his friends which Jesus was moved to forgive and heal the man. Whether he had faith or not, while it was necessary after he left jesus, was not necessary at the moment. Maybe the man’s hope was gone. Maybe resisted his friend’s desire to bring him to Jesus. And then again, maybe he did have faith, but not enough to move him towards Jesus, yet enough to believe and accept His words.

 

[Lion_IRC]

What do we say at funerals if not prayers for the dead?
Jewish people have a prayer for the dead - Kaddish Yatom
Muslims have a prayer for the dead - Salat al-Janazah

I’m afraid I don’t understand where the problem is with prayer to God for, or about, someone we love/loved.

 

[rcwitness]

What do we say at funerals if not prayers for the dead?
Jewish people have a prayer for the dead - Kaddish Yatom
Muslims have a prayer for the dead - Salat al-Janazah

I’m afraid I don’t understand where the problem is with prayer to God for, or about, someone we love/loved.

I think there is a Protestant dilemma over the efectualness of the prayers from this world on the souls of those who’s life is over in this world. Can our prayers actually influence God’s mercy onto the person, or are they just hopefull thoughts that the person’s faith was sufficient.

I quoted 3 John as a reminder that our prayers can have hope in truly helping others as long as it’s not expecting to forgive mortal sin. This, I would have trouble explaining. Its a pretty deep statement from John, I think.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Was this not a prayer for the dead?

“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up”.
Acts 9:40 (NIV)

 

[rcwitness]

Was this not a prayer for the dead?

“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up”.
Acts 9:40 (NIV)

I would have to agree.

I think there is a Protestant dilemma over the efectualness of the prayers from this world on the souls of those who’s life is over in this world. Can our prayers actually influence God’s mercy onto the person, or are they just hopefull thoughts that the person’s faith was sufficient.

I quoted 3 John as a reminder that our prayers can have hope in truly helping others as long as it’s not expecting to forgive mortal sin. This, I would have trouble explaining. Its a pretty deep statement from John, I think.

Something dawned on me…

When I said…, “Can our prayers actually influence God’s mercy onto the person, or are they just hopefull thoughts that the person’s faith was sufficient?”…

And this, regarding 3 John 5…

“This, I would have trouble explaining. Its a pretty deep statement from John, I think.”

I realized where my problem was. It’s here:

“Can our prayers actually influence God’s mercy onto the person, or are they just hopefull thoughts that the person’s faith was sufficient.”

Our prayers for the dead are not for making their faith sufficient for salvation, but for God’s mercy on their imperfections. As Catholics, we believe sins that do not lead to death yet are not dealt with in this world are suffered through purgatory. Our prayers cant achieve someone’s salvation from mortal sins of unrepentance, but mercy on someone’s imperfections.

 

[po18guy]

Was this not a prayer for the dead?

“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up”.
Acts 9:40 (NIV)

And, was not the following a prayer for the dead?

Mark 5:41-43

41 Taking her by the hand he said to her, “Tal′itha cu′mi”; which means, “Little girl, I say to you, arise.” 42 And immediately the girl got up and walked; for she was twelve years old. And immediately they were overcome with amazement. 43 And he strictly charged them that no one should know this,[e] and told them to give her something to eat.

After all, what occurred was in the spiritual realm.

Or this:

1 Kings 17:17-24

17 After this the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became ill; and his illness was so severe that there was no breath left in him. 18 And she said to Eli′jah, “What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!” 19 And he said to her, “Give me your son.” And he took him from her bosom, and carried him up into the upper chamber, where he lodged, and laid him upon his own bed. 20 And he cried to the Lord, “O Lord my God, hast thou brought calamity even upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?” 21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the Lord, “O Lord my God, let this child’s soul come into him again.” 22 And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Eli′jah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. 23 And Eli′jah took the child, and brought him down from the upper chamber into the house, and delivered him to his mother; and Eli′jah said, “See, your son lives.” 24 And the woman said to Eli′jah, “Now I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is truth.”

If only bible Christians would read the bible!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Was this not a prayer for the dead?

“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up”.
Acts 9:40 (NIV)

Bingo!

Jesus prayed for Lazarus before commanding him to come out of the tomb.

And Paul prayed for the young man who fell out of the window during his sermon.

 

[Kliska]

I decided to weigh in on this because I think the way I look at it just different “enough” to add to the conversation. In short, I don’t see the problem if Paul was praying for his dead friend, or remembering him to God. Apparently many of my fellow protestants would be… really upset about it, but why?

One reason; they think somehow it directly supports the idea of Purgatory, or that it even may let the Catholic get their foot in the door about Purgatory p). I’ve said it a lot; we can’t let fear of one doctrine, teaching, or dogma influence our reaction to related doctrine that there is room to see in scripture. Perhaps I’m naive, or letting my own experiences get in the way, but what is so horrible about praying for the dead, commending them to God, and trying to butter the bread a bit? lol

I don’t think praying for a loved one to be remembered well and to receive the mercy of God is a sin. As was well stated earlier in the thread, we all (I believe) see that at some point we stand before God as believers, and our works are indeed tried. If my loved one is going before a judge down here on earth, of course I’m going to pray for them… And here’s the thing; it doesn’t always have to do with thinking we are going to radically change something, but we love our friends and family and wish to remember them to God in kindness and declare those things about our departed that we cherish. Prayer has an effect on the one who is praying, and that is especially true when someone we love has died. Even asking God to hold that person and show them love is praying for the dead…

Sure God already knows all things about our loved ones, but that is true of all the things we ask for. Prayer is about relationship, it is a way to show love, and prayer is powerful.

 

[Peter_J]

I decided to weigh in on this because I think the way I look at it just different “enough” to add to the conversation. In short, I don’t see the problem if Paul was praying for his dead friend, or remembering him to God. Apparently many of my fellow protestants would be… really upset about it, but why?

One reason; they think somehow it directly supports the idea of Purgatory, or that it even may let the Catholic get their foot in the door about Purgatory p). I’ve said it a lot; we can’t let fear of one doctrine, teaching, or dogma influence our reaction to related doctrine that there is room to see in scripture. Perhaps I’m naive, or letting my own experiences get in the way, but what is so horrible about praying for the dead, commending them to God, and trying to butter the bread a bit? lol

I don’t think praying for a loved one to be remembered well and to receive the mercy of God is a sin. As was well stated earlier in the thread, we all (I believe) see that at some point we stand before God as believers, and our works are indeed tried. If my loved one is going before a judge down here on earth, of course I’m going to pray for them… And here’s the thing; it doesn’t always have to do with thinking we are going to radically change something, but we love our friends and family and wish to remember them to God in kindness and declare those things about our departed that we cherish. Prayer has an effect on the one who is praying, and that is especially true when someone we love has died. Even asking God to hold that person and show them love is praying for the dead…

Sure God already knows all things about our loved ones, but that is true of all the things we ask for. Prayer is about relationship, it is a way to show love, and prayer is powerful.

I like your way of looking at it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I decided to weigh in on this because I think the way I look at it just different “enough” to add to the conversation. In short, I don’t see the problem if Paul was praying for his dead friend, or remembering him to God. Apparently many of my fellow protestants would be… really upset about it, but why?

One reason; they think somehow it directly supports the idea of Purgatory, or that it even may let the Catholic get their foot in the door about Purgatory p). I’ve said it a lot; we can’t let fear of one doctrine, teaching, or dogma influence our reaction to related doctrine that there is room to see in scripture. Perhaps I’m naive, or letting my own experiences get in the way, but what is so horrible about praying for the dead, commending them to God, and trying to butter the bread a bit? lol

That’s great, Kliska!

Now, if you could just take ooone more tiny step for me…closer…cloooooooser…



Gotcha!

 

[Kliska]

That’s great, Kliska!

Now, if you could just take ooone more tiny step for me…closer…cloooooooser…



Gotcha!

Ha! Y’all wish.

:curtsey: