Praying in Latin

[Rich_C]

No one is saying you have to pray in English.

Contrary to those who are pushing Latin as a must those of us on the other side are saying use whatever language is best for you.

Brother, isn’t this a straw man? I haven’t seen anyone in this thread do that.

I have to wonder how much of this idea that praying in Latin is more “efficacious” is the remnants of Latin Triumphalism (that the Latin Church is superior to all other Churches) by saying that praying in Latin is more “efficacious” one is saying that the Latin Mass is more “efficacious” than all the Eucharistic Rites of the other Churches who use the vernacular.

This seems like harmful speculation to me, with all respect brother. To me, it comes off as baggage from your interactions with someone else in the past, rather than a fair reading of anything in this thread.

If you think there is no reason that Eastern Catholics should have the least interest in knowing a prayer in Latin, you can just say it. I hope no one would disrespect you for that.

 

[justme]

Brother, isn’t this a straw man? I haven’t seen anyone in this thread do that.

No more a strawman than the post it was in reply to.

This seems like harmful speculation to me, with all respect brother. To me, it comes off as baggage from your interactions with someone else in the past, rather than a fair reading of anything in this thread.

If you think there is no reason that Eastern Catholics should have the least interest in knowing a prayer in Latin, you can just say it. I hope no one would disrespect you for that.

Have you read through the whole thread?

 

[Rich_C]

No more a strawman than the post it was in reply to.

Have you read through the whole thread?

I read a great deal of it. A strawman argument is a poor charactature of the opposing argument, which a person then critiques instead of the real opposing argument which is usually much more robust. That describes practically every objection to the OP in this thread. I didn’t see the pro-Latin posters do any such thing, but if I missed it please correct me.

 

[ProVobis]

No one is saying you have to pray in English.

Not the real point. At an all-English Mass you have an advantage over me, where at an all-Polish Mass, I would have the advantage. I don’t think a Catholic liturgy is the place to draw such lines with modern vernaculars. A liturgy is to INCLUDE people, not exclude them.

I like Rich C’s earlier comment about having all Catholic liturgies have some elements of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew so that we might have a better mutual understanding of the Sacrifice at Calvary.

 

[justme]

Not the real point. At an all-English Mass you have an advantage over me, where at an all-Polish Mass, I would have the advantage.

I think I see it now.

I don’t think a Catholic liturgy is the place to draw such lines with modern vernaculars. A liturgy is to INCLUDE people, not exclude them.

Ah but here is the rub. No one is forced to attend a Mass where they do not know the language.

I know what you will say to this but there is always a choice.

I like Rich C’s earlier comment about having all Catholic liturgies have some elements of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew so that we might have a better mutual understanding of the Sacrifice at Calvary.

So lets exclude everybody or will the Church take up the basic education of Latin now?

Mutual misunderstanding.

 

[Rich_C]

I think I see it now.

Ah but here is the rub. No one is forced to attend a Mass where they do not know the language.

I know what you will say to this but there is always a choice.

So lets exclude everybody or will the Church take up the basic education of Latin now?

Mutual misunderstanding.

Justme, your comments are ignorant. For over 15 centuries the Roman Catholic Church only had Latin Masses (maybe a rare exception) without excluding every Roman Catholic who didn’t have a strong comprehension of the language, because it catechized people. Today millions of Roman Catholics assist at Latin Masses without being excluded. Think before you post.

 

[ProVobis]

No one is forced to attend a Mass where they do not know the language.

I don’t believe this is correct. If the only Sunday event around is a Vietnamese Mass or Ukrainian Liturgy, for example, there is no general dispensation that I know of. The obligation to attend is still there.

So lets exclude everybody or will the Church take up the basic education of Latin now?

According to Veterum Sapientia, that was the deal.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not the real point. At an all-English Mass you have an advantage over me, where at an all-Polish Mass, I would have the advantage. I don’t think a Catholic liturgy is the place to draw such lines with modern vernaculars. A liturgy is to INCLUDE people, not exclude them.

I like Rich C’s earlier comment about having all Catholic liturgies have some elements of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew so that we might have a better mutual understanding of the Sacrifice at Calvary.

You are correct, the point of the Liturgy is to include everyone. That is why it was always have been the vernacular of where a particular Church is located. Did St. Thomas enforce the use of Greek, Latin or Aramaic when he got to India? I don’t think so.

If one is travelling through, then it falls on that person to learn the local language. You can’t expect the people of a locale to adjust to the visitors. Does America adapt Polish as an official language just because there are Polish people living in America? Conversely, you don’t force English on the Polish.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

You are correct, the point of the Liturgy is to include everyone. That is why it was always have been the vernacular of where a particular Church is located.

CTG - I’m interested in your opinion on this subject, as you now worship in a church where there is use of a Church vernacular (Ukrainian) that is not the same as your national vernacular (well, at least one of them). Yes, both Ukrainian and English are used, but the UGCC does still have Ukrainian only DLs as part of the regular cycle of worship outside the Ukraine (we know you recently attended one such DL ).

Do you struggle with the Ukrainian usage, or does your familiarity with the English translation help you through it?

 

[ProVobis]

If one is travelling through, then it falls on that person to learn the local language.

That’s what I keep telling my nephew. He keeps emailing me to complain they don’t speak English where he travels abroad. But he likes their food so he goes back.

 

[ConstantineTG]

CTG - I’m interested in your opinion on this subject, as you now worship in a church where there is use of a Church vernacular (Ukrainian) that is not the same as your national vernacular (well, at least one of them). Yes, both Ukrainian and English are used, but the UGCC does still have Ukrainian only DLs as part of the regular cycle of worship outside the Ukraine (we know you recently attended one such DL ).

Do you struggle with the Ukrainian usage, or does your familiarity with the English translation help you through it?

Yes, I struggle whenever it is even half in Ukrainian. I think I had an entire thread dedicated to that. Being an ethnic parish they do love preserving their own language. In fact many come to the parish for the main purpose of connecting to their ancestral roots. That is why even those whom I know were born and raised in Canada and can’t carry a full conversation in Ukrainian would attend the Ukrainian-only services. Sadly, the fact is that they are there more for the cultural aspect than for living the Byzantine faith. To many of them, the faith isn’t different from the Roman Catholic faith in any way (praxis, tradition, etc.) so it is really only cultural value.

That’s what I keep telling my nephew. He keeps emailing me to complain they don’t speak English where he travels abroad. But he likes their food so he goes back.

I went to China and the guy at the local McDonald’s had to whip out a picture menu so I can make my order. Most of the Apostles travelled with interpreters. God never implemented a catch-all solution because humans are very diversified and very stubborn.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Yes, I struggle whenever it is even half in Ukrainian.

Do you think your experience might be analogous to that of a Latin Catholic who, with no prior experience with Latin, might be forced to relate to Mass in Latin as the norm?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Do you think your experience might be analogous to that of a Latin Catholic who, with no prior experience with Latin, might be forced to relate to Mass in Latin as the norm?

The problem with the Ukrainian really is not just the language but the culture. I guess this is where the Latin Mass may have sort of an advantage over the other languages used by ethnic parishes. Ethnic parishes aren’t only about the language but the culture as well. If singing in the choir and making perrogies is indistinguishable, then it is hard for people of other cultures. I mean, I like perrogies and I do not mind helping out the community whenever I have time. When i was jobless I’d come in and help making them and when I have work I would go and buy them. But still it is a bit unnerving for someone who has no connection to the culture whatsoever to be so immersed in it. I mean, if I am living in Ukraine right now, then it is different because it is where I am. But I am not in Ukraine and I’m not aiming to be a Ukrainian citizen or culturally and ethnically Ukrainian. I just want to be Ukrainian Catholic, and sometimes the faith and the culture is inseprable. And sometimes my frustration is I want to live the Ukrainian Catholic faith and tradition, but people there are just there for cultural reasons. There is a huge disconnect.

For the Latin Mass communities, it is all about just the language of the Mass. The prevailing culture is the culture of the land where the parish is in.

 

[ProVobis]

Most of the Apostles travelled with interpreters. God never implemented a catch-all solution because humans are very diversified and very stubborn.

Although in his writings Cicero tried to distinguish Latin and Greek, I doubt if languages (and grammar) were as organized then as they are today. As you said once yourself most were illiterate at the time. My guess is that most spoke in assorted code, in what we would call today in bilingual and trilingual tongues. This was probably true among the barbarians too.

 

[TrueLight]

How about the fact that Muslims have their services in Arabic and Orthodox Jews, Hebrew (I think)? Doesn’t that show there is value in having a common liturgical language?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Although in his writings Cicero tried to distinguish Latin and Greek, I doubt if languages (and grammar) were as organized then as they are today. As you said once yourself most were illiterate at the time. My guess is that most spoke in assorted code, in what we would call today in bilingual and trilingual tongues. This was probably true among the barbarians too.

People can also be surprisingly smart. While they cannot read and write, they may have been able to speak several langauages. Africans today speak several languages of neighboring tribes and nations even without the benefit of the Western educational system.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

How about the fact that Muslims have their services in Arabic and Orthodox Jews, Hebrew (I think)? Doesn’t that show there is value in having a common liturgical language?

And the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics use the vernacular. Protestants also use the vernacular.

Doesn’t this show something as well?

For a period the Latin Church used the vernacular, first Greek and then Latin. I believe it is an aberration that the Latin Church continued to use Latin when it was no longer the vernacular.

 

[ConstantineTG]

How about the fact that Muslims have their services in Arabic and Orthodox Jews, Hebrew (I think)? Doesn’t that show there is value in having a common liturgical language?

Do we really want to compare our faith with them?

 

[ConstantineTG]

And the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics use the vernacular. Protestants also use the vernacular.

Doesn’t this show something as well?

For a period the Latin Church used the vernacular, first Greek and then Latin. I believe it is an aberration that the Latin Church continued to use Latin when it was no longer the vernacular.

I don’t see it is necessarily wrong to use and older and more formal version of the language. For example, the Filipino (Tagalog) Mass uses archaic formal Tagalog that isn’t vernacular today. But people do see it as adding to the dignity of the Mass because it is a very formal use of the language. The problem is that some people don’t even know what some of the words mean, how will they be catechized by the Liturgy?

 

[ProVobis]

Do we really want to compare our faith with them?

Where’s the ecumenical spirit?