Praying Rosary During Mass?

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That’s because many of the alleged fruits of the “pastoral” Vatican II and its immediate aftermath were quite the opposite.

Their effect could often be reduced to:
  1. What you used to do was wrong. We just discovered this c. 1970.
  2. You can’t do it anymore. You have to do it in the new way. Again, we just discovered this. Like all society around us, the 1960s brought liberation from the Dark Ages that preceded it. We can call it a new springtime.
  3. Stop pointing out things that contradict or disagree with us. You’re being disobedient. Yes, we have liberal principles. Except when you disagree with us. Then we’re as “Medieval” as can be.
  4. It’s acceptable catechesis to tell an entire young generation that luckily they were born in the early 70s, because they get to enjoy a “truly renewed worship in spirit and truth”, unlike all that other stuff their forebears had to endure to prepare the way for the “New Advent”.
I might note that one project of Bugnini’s Commission was to “revise” the Rosary. Amazing that the same liturgists were very firmly noting the Rosary isn’t liturgy (it’s not), but they wanted to muck around with it.

Are we really to imagine that this pseudo-problem was just ignored until 1974? Was it really “okay” until 1974, and then suddenly it was “wrong”?

Again, hyper-obedience is right. The pope is entitled to his opinion. So is Father Fessio, or any of the other current non-papal darlings of some.

Catholic tradition is judicious. Not robotic.
 
bear06 said:
:rotfl: Now it suddenly matters if it comes from an official Church document?! Zoinks! Marialis Cultus! Marialis Cultus! How come your picking on him when Bombay won’t reveal his super secret source? 😉

That said, Palmas is right. It is just a blogspot. Last time I checked, nobody from the Magisterium has said you couldn’t say your rosary while driving!
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I pointed out that the posting was merely from a personal blogspot because too many people that read these things will automatically assume that, well if it has a link, it must be knowlegeable and authoritative.

I’m not picking on anybody, but linking to a blog as an authoritative source on anything? Give me a break.

Besides, I’m really getting tired with those making the assumption and claims that the entire church was enveloped in darkness prior to Vatican II and that we, the ignorant, unwashed masses were mere spectators, huddled in the pews, desperately saying rosaries because we knew how to do nothing else, totally uniformed about the faith, yearning for equality and full participation with the evil ordained priesthood who had kept us submissive and in bondage through the use of a dead language that no one either understood or spoke…

It all gets very old sometimes.
 
I’m not picking on anybody, but linking to a blog as an authoritative source on anything? Give me a break.
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If you noticed, I agreed with you on this. The problem is that we’ll turn and say that Mediator Dei is authoritative but Marialis Cultus is not.
Besides, I’m really getting tired with those making the assumption and claims that the entire church was enveloped in darkness prior to Vatican II and that we, the ignorant, unwashed masses were mere spectators, huddled in the pews, desperately saying rosaries because we knew how to do nothing else, totally uniformed about the faith, yearning for equality and full participation with the evil ordained priesthood who had kept us submissive and in bondage through the use of a dead language that no one either understood or spoke.
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Sorry, I never said that but it is kind of funny that Mediator Dei, which Mr. Doherty so skillfully pointed out says:
  1. Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas.
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So, obviously (unless Pius XII is a dubious source) it was a problem for many.
 
Praying the Rosary during mass to me is like going to an event like say a football game. While everybody stands up and sings the National Anthem, you stand up and start singing God Bless America. GBA is a great patriotic song but will you be in tune with everybody else?
 
AlexV said:
…Paul VI is entitled to his opinion.
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What I find astonishingly contrary to Catholic thought is that an Acta Apostolicae Sedis such as a “apostolic exhortation” of the pope is thought of by some as though he were sharing his mere “opinion.”

If one in incapable of understanding the liturgy so as to actively participate in it as the lawful pastors of the Church intent, then the simple who have difficulty following along in their missal, even in the vernacular, are permitted to meditate on the mysteries of Christ through the Roasry, or through the various sights and sounds, stained glass, statuary, or other methods as a pious practice. However, liberals and traditionalists alike seem to emphasize exceptions as though they were intended as the Catholic norm.
 
Everything printed in the AAS does not have the equal force of mandatory, obligatory law.

The root problem here is the view that everything a pope says must be obeyed. That’s not Catholic.

The problem here, further, is that the hyperobedient make no distinctions between various sorts of issues. For them, it’s always the same: whatever the pope says is law.

So something as truly trivial as quibbling over people praying the Rosary or not at Mass was apparently fine until 1974. Then suddenly it was “wrong,” and will remain so until some other pope reverses it. Then it will be celebrated as the new “norm” and “rule”.
 
bear06 said:
If you noticed, I agreed with you on this. The problem is that we’ll turn and say that Mediator Dei is authoritative but Marialis Cultus is not.

Sorry, I never said that but it is kind of funny that Mediator Dei, which Mr. Doherty so skillfully pointed out says:

So, obviously (unless Pius XII is a dubious source) it was a problem for many.
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Your quote from Mediator Dei is incomplete and gives a somewhat false impression of what the Holy Father was saying. Here is the entirity of the quoted section 108
  1. Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. So varied and diverse are men’s talents and characters that it is impossible for all to be moved and attracted to the same extent by community prayers, hymns and liturgical services. Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual. Who, then, would say, on account of such a prejudice, that all these Christians cannot participate in the Mass nor share its fruits? **On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them. **
Note if you will the bold portion.

It seems to me that the Holy Father was indeed a keen judge of the faithful and of human nature in general and made a very wise statement. A statement that seems to say that other forms of piety are perfectly all right in certain situations with certain people during the celebration of the Mass.

While true he advocates that all should strive to learn the Missal and the Rites in order to worship in unison, he understood that would be beyond the grasp of some, and obviously he was correct as many still do not comprehend what is going on.
 
AlexV said:
Everything printed in the AAS does not have the equal force of mandatory, obligatory law.
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If this was directed to my comments, I have not claimed such a thing.

However, it is absurd to treat an apostolic exhortation as though it were mere “opinion” as if to imply that it can be simply set aside. That is contrary to traditional Catholic teaching with regard to religiosum obsequium.

The lawful pastors of the Church have always intended that the faithful pay attention to those who act in persona Christi during the Mass, for those who are able, because they act in the person who is the source and summit of our faith.
The problem here, further, is that the hyperobedient…
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I can only hope and pray that I’m given the grace to be hyperobedient to the Vicar of Christ.
 
The bold portion was already quoted by Mr. Doherty. I was responding to this:
Besides, I’m really getting tired with those making the assumption and claims that the entire church was enveloped in darkness prior to Vatican II and that we, the ignorant, unwashed masses were mere spectators, huddled in the pews, desperately saying rosaries because we knew how to do nothing else, totally uniformed about the faith, yearning for equality and full participation with the evil ordained priesthood who had kept us submissive and in bondage through the use of a dead language that no one either understood or spoke…
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Pope Pius said that MANY people had a problem understanding the Mass even with the translations, not me. I, for one, don’t have a problem with Latin but some do.
It seems to me that the Holy Father was indeed a keen judge of the faithful and of human nature in general and made a very wise statement.
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Again, I think it’s funny to say that Pope Pius XII was a wise and keen judge of the faithful and Pope Paul VI was not.
 
And a large point that is totally being ignored in this (increasingly silly) thread is…

…a person can actually focus on the Mass while praying the Rosary, and use the Rosary as an efficacious means of focusing on the Mass. It’s not the either/or dichotomy some seem to want to cast it as.

I don’t pray the Rosary during Mass, but I would never argue that it can’t be an efficacious tool to praying the Mass.

As for Pius XII vs. Paul VI, I have no problem saying the former was wiser than the latter. For starters, the former didn’t present episcopal insignia as a present to mere laymen. The latter did. The former didn’t oversee the recomposition of the entire liturgy (not just the Mass). The latter did.
 
As for Pius XII vs. Paul VI, I have no problem saying the former was wiser than the latter. For starters, the former didn’t present episcopal insignia as a present to mere laymen. The latter did. The former didn’t oversee the recomposition of the entire liturgy (not just the Mass). The latter did.
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Give me a break. So, everyone who thinks a pope did something stupid is just in ignoring his encyclicals, exhortations,etc.? There are some who don’t feel that Pope Pius XII didn’t handle things as he ought. Should we say that they can just ignore him?

Like Dave said, an exhortation is far different than a pope doing what some would consider foolish.
 
bear06 said:
The bold portion was already quoted by Mr. Doherty. I was responding to this:

Pope Pius said that MANY people had a problem understanding the Mass even with the translations, not me. I, for one, don’t have a problem with Latin but some do.

Again, I think it’s funny to say that Pope Pius XII was a wise and keen judge of the faithful and Pope Paul VI was not.
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I have never said that Pope Paul VI was not a keen judge of the faithful. In fact, I have never mentioned the Holy Father in any way whatsoever… I merely stated that Pius XII was a keen judge of human nature and of the faithful. Whether or not Paul VI was at the same level of understanding and ability to handle the Papacy is subject for another discussion.

Not all Popes have been equal in what they did, said or accomplished during their Pontificates. We’ve been blessed with some good ones and we’ve been truly blessed with a few great ones. But we have also been cursed with some truly horrible ones and have had to accept quite a few that were just plain mediocore for lack of a better word.

The Holy Father is still a man. It would be good for all of us to remember that fact and not fall into the cult of Papal adulation and adoration that so many often do.
 
Not adulation nor adoration of the Pope. I think we’re all well aware of the flaws of even our best Popes, since they’re all discussed ad nauseam by their detractors.

It’s simple recognition that good, indifferent, or even bad as they may be, Popes are still the Vicars of Christ and hold a unique position and authority as his specially gifted representatives on Earth.

They receive the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, the power to bind and loose and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their fullest measure - not you or I.

And yes, even the worst of them is due the greatest possible obedience. You want me to trot out St Catherine of Siena and all the other Doctors of the Church who have said as much even while vehemently disagreeing with them?

We have here one Pope who allegedly as a private practice prayed the Rosary during Mass - even this much is totally unsubstantiated hearsay - versus another who clearly and openly and in his capacity as teacher of the faithful said that to do so is highly undesirable.

Perhaps this is simply a matter of there being differences between the TLM and the NO that make praying the Rosary fine and suitable in the first liturgy and much more of a hindrance to worship in the second. Since the second requires more obvious (for want of a better word, and no, robotic is NOT that word 😛 ) participation from the congregants.
 
palmas85 said:
I have never said that Pope Paul VI was not a keen judge of the faithful. In fact, I have never mentioned the Holy Father in any way whatsoever… I merely stated that Pius XII was a keen judge of human nature and of the faithful. Whether or not Paul VI was at the same level of understanding and ability to handle the Papacy is subject for another discussion.

Not all Popes have been equal in what they did, said or accomplished during their Pontificates. We’ve been blessed with some good ones and we’ve been truly blessed with a few great ones. But we have also been cursed with some truly horrible ones and have had to accept quite a few that were just plain mediocore for lack of a better word.

The Holy Father is still a man. It would be good for all of us to remember that fact and not fall into the cult of Papal adulation and adoration that so many often do.
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Sigh! The papolater accusation again. Might have to resurrect the order. Thanks for letting us know that he’s still a man. Some of us might have thought him to be a god. What would we do without you to educate us in this fact?:whacky:

I’m pretty sure all of us here know this fact. To save some time, see Dave’s post above.
 
palmas85 said:
I notice this reference comes from a personal blogspot and is not an official church document and as such I would assume reflects the personal preferences and reccomendations of the author, and really nothing more.
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But it’s linked and everything. For some people here, a hyperlink carries the same weight as an infallible papal decree.
 
I try to get to church 30 minutes before Mass starts to pray the rosary. The one church I attend in Virginia prays the rosary before Mass and I love that. But when I am at Mass, I concentrate on that.
However, when I accompany my BF to his church, (he is SDA) out comes the rosary. You should see the looks I get!:rolleyes:
Kathy
 
The logic here is insidious:
  1. The Tridentine Mass wasn’t really suitable for congregational participation, so the Rosary was understandable.
  2. The Novus Ordo solved that participation problem, ergo the Rosary is unsuitable during Mass.
Both Masses are potentially participatory. There are many different ways to participate. Some people think audible responses (spoken and/or singing) proves participation, while refusal to make responses proves lack thereof.

I’d still like to know what some would say if the pope said to do jumping jacks at the Consecration.

I’ve seen a website where the proudly “Papal Fidelity” Catholic webmaster said he’d obey.

Scary.
 
I want to highlight this quote Pope Pius XII’s Encyclical on the Liturgy Mediator Dei:
  1. … So varied and diverse are men’s talents and characters that it is impossible for all to be moved and attracted to the same extent by community prayers, hymns and liturgical services. Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p...ts/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

What I have found when attending the Tridentine Latin Mass is that sometimes I am moved to follow along closely in the missal. At other times I feel more contemplative and just want to pray silently. Thus it is easy to see Pope Pius XII’s truly pastoral understanding of the laity when he says that the needs and inclinations of even the same individual are not constant over time.

And I suppose that’s one of the reasons I like the Tridentine Mass so much as its silence allows one to participate in a variety of ways. And of course some people are more active in their orientation, some more contemplative.

I personally would probably find it difficult to pray the rosary or even other prayers from a prayer book which have to do with the Mass at the Novus Ordo as there is so little silence.
 
  1. The Tridentine Mass wasn’t really suitable for congregational participation, so the Rosary was understandable.
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Uh, who said this. I certainly didn’t. The Pope Pius XII was the one who said not everyone understood it. I don’t believe he said it was unsuitable.
  1. The Novus Ordo solved that participation problem, ergo the Rosary is unsuitable during Mass.
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I don’t think anyone said that either. We only quoted Marialis Cultus.
Both Masses are potentially participatory. There are many different ways to participate. Some people think audible responses (spoken and/or singing) proves participation, while refusal to make responses proves lack thereof.
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There are different ways to participate but wouldn’t you agree that all ways are not prudent. As you said, jumping jacks would not cut it.
I’d still like to know what some would say if the pope said to do jumping jacks at the Consecration.
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How about we pick something that might actually happen. This is about as likely as women priests.
 
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