Praying the Hail Mary

[YADA]

I tTried to post this yesterday…but the forums went down…

Lazarus was righteous. Why didn’t he go down to help the rich mans brothers? Answer because he was not allowed.

Misslollypops, you are initiating another argument…

As eveidenced from your many posts - You maintain that the dead cannot see or hear and therefore any prayers to them are inappropriate…Now, because the Rich Man’s plea was answered in the negative it means what?..

That no prayers are ever answered in the affirmative? …You are not really going to say that prayers are ineffective based upon this one passage?? If so that is a different topic…perhaps for a different thread…

This passage proves more then that the dead hear the pleas of others. This passage proves that they are aware, hear, see and have recognition that is out of the norm…

Neither Lazarus nor the Rich Man would [or could] have known what Abraham looked like - yet they recognize Abraham for who he is and his role in salvation history - Lazarus lies in the bosom of Abraham - that is probably how you came to realize he is ‘rightious’ a ter used to describe Abraham.

Now Lazarus is with Abraham; you might concluded [expect] that introducitons were made. But the Rich Man is in a totally different place and yet he can see across the chasm!

The Rich Man is aware of his own circumstance, that the conditions for Lazarus are different and that his borthers are headed for the same fate as his. The Rich Man is eveidently aware that they [his brothers] ar unrepentant and still sinners. He [the Rich Man] has concern for his brothers and attempts to interceed on their behalf. It is not necessary for his apeal to be successful to illustrate that yu position [the dead are unknowing, unaware, don’t care, etc]

This is really striking…it is compelling for the belief in the Communion of Saints, God as the God of the Living, Intercessory prayer, all of it. That Lazarus was not allowed to ‘personally’ leave and go to the brothers to tell them the Rich Man’s fate is not relevant…Another point the Rich Man is not even a ‘rightious’ person…how much more might a person who is fellowship with God know, see and care?

Another passage is is Revelation, where the martyrs cry out for vindication…Jesus tells the that there will be more martyrs joining them and that their vindication will come [God’s timing!!!]. Again this illustrates that there is awareness and communitcations. The prayers of those on earth carried forth ad presented to God in bowls…

 

[Fidelis]

Doesn’t an apologetics website need an opposing viewpoint?
If this is all about defending your faith doesn’t there need to be someone to defend it against?
You need people like me.
Or there wouldn’t be a spirited debate.

Debate for the sake of debate is fruitless contentiousness, which the Apostle Paul warned us against. If you aren’t here to sincerely have your questions answered at least to the point of occasionally acknowledging that you may be wrong and the Catholic Church may be right on something you believed about her teaching, then you are just to forment that type of contentiousness the Bible directs us to avoid.

 

[YADA]

True but Mary did not have in mind the full concept of the incarnation and its implications.

Realy, so you know what was in Mary’s mind?

Exactly what parts of the full concept of the incarnationn and its implications did she have at this point?

What conceptions were left for later understanding and when did Mary come to the full concept of the incarnation and its implications?

Can you direct us to the scripture verses that illustrate this for us so we can read it too?

 

[misslollipops]

Debate for the sake of debate is fruitless contentiousness, which the Apostle Paul warned us against. If you aren’t here to sincerely have your questions answered at least to the point of occasionally acknowledging that you may be wrong and the Catholic Church may be right on something you believed about her teaching, then you are just to forment that type of contentiousness the Bible directs us to avoid.

I have learned many things from this forum.
For instance, I never knew of the promises of the rosary.
The first one was surprising to me and very enlightening.
I also learned of the contemplating of the bible while saying the hail Mary.
I am learning.
I don’t think it is to the point that I would ever pray the hail Mary again. But just the same, I don’t think any devoted Mariologists would ever stop saying the hail Mary either.

 

[YADA]

I have learned many things from this forum.
For instance, I never knew of the promises of the rosary.
The first one was surprising to me and very enlightening.
I also learned of the contemplating of the bible while saying the hail Mary.
I am learning.
I don’t think it is to the point that I would ever pray the hail Mary again. But just the same, I don’t think any devoted Mariologists would ever stop saying the hail Mary either.

What is a Mariologist?

I don’t know for sure about you.

I have never heard of a Mariologist. However, I am a Christian, who prays regularly [as in several times a day and I read scripture too! :yup: ] in a vriety of ways [Yes,directly to Jesus, Liturgy of the Hours, Lecto Divina, Grace before every meal - private or public, night time prayers with grand children and my spouse, The Mass - lest I forget, and the occassional Rosary -had a job with a 45 minute commute for 16 months once - prayed the Rosary every morning - no road rage for me].

My prayer life includes prayers for others. I have been known to ask other Christians to pray with me and for me; on occasion. we are instructed to pray for each other and to strengthen each other [in sacripture] in addition to building up the church, the people of God…

No Mariologist here, just an honest to God Christian…and I’ll have you know I a a member of the First Church of Christ… you call is by its common moniker - the Catholic Church :extrahappy:

*And when I pray that others [my fellow Chuistians] pray for my needs - *
**
*What I really mean is - *
**
*I **ask ***them to offer their prayers for me to God
**
“To pray” means to ask - we don’t use that term in common speech mush any more - it is found in legalize though - you plead your case before the courts… pleading is a form of the the word ‘pray’ and have you ever heard the term “PRAY TELL” it means I am asking you to inform…

 

[mercygate]

I have learned many things from this forum.
For instance, I never knew of the promises of the rosary.
The first one was surprising to me and very enlightening.
I also learned of the contemplating of the bible while saying the hail Mary.
I am learning.
I don’t think it is to the point that I would ever pray the hail Mary again. But just the same,** I don’t think any devoted Mariologists would ever stop saying the hail Mary either**.

You are probably right, but then, the Rosary is an optional devotion, and these things can become prominent and then recede at different points in one’s life.

 

[Mannyfit75]

But just the same, I don’t think any devoted Mariologists would ever stop saying the hail Mary either.

You are using a terminology not many of us are. Mariology is the study of Mary and her life, and her role in salvation history. None of us Catholics here are Mariologists.

Here is what Mariology is according to Wikipedia.

Mariology is the area of Christian theology concerned with Mary, the Mother of Jesus. It not only deals with her life but her veneration mainly through Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, the Assyrian Church of the East and Anglicanism, and her aspect in modern and ancient Christianity.

Catholics here know the basic Catholic belief of Mary but we aren’t Mariologists.

 

[mercygate]

I have learned many things from this forum.
For instance, I never knew of the promises of the rosary.
The first one was surprising to me and very enlightening.
I also learned of the contemplating of the bible while saying the hail Mary.
I am learning.
I don’t think it is to the point that I would ever pray the hail Mary again. But just the same, I don’t think any devoted Mariologists would ever stop saying the hail Mary either.

:clapping: :tiphat: to lolli for NOT calling us “Mariolaters!” Thank you, lolli.

 

[justasking4]

YADA;2829204]Realy, so you know what was in Mary’s mind?

How could she if the fullness of the gospel was unknown at this time?

Exactly what parts of the full concept of the incarnationn and its implications did she have at this point?

That Jesus would die for the sins of the world and rise again. All the things He would do in the gospels.

What conceptions were left for later understanding and when did Mary come to the full concept of the incarnation and its implications?

I have no reason to think she completely understood it completely by what we know in the gospels.

Can you direct us to the scripture verses that illustrate this for us so we can read it too?

huh? Can you clarify?

 

[misslollipops]

:clapping: :tiphat: to lolli for NOT calling us “Mariolaters!” Thank you, lolli.

‘Mariolaters’ would be infering idolatry, and you all have made it ABUNDANTLY clear you don’t feel that praying to Mary, bowing before her statue, serving her and sacrificing things to Mary is in ANY WAY idolatry.
So personally, I would not use that term.

 

[jmcrae]

How could she if the fullness of the gospel was unknown at this time?

How does not knowing how He would fulfill His mission equate to not knowing that she was carrying the God of the Old Testament - the Creator - in her womb?

Of course she knew, and if she didn’t, Elizabeth told her, when she said, “And how is it that the mother of my Lord (meaning the Creator) should come to me?”

Of course she knew what was going on.

 

[Mannyfit75]

‘Mariolaters’ would be infering idolatry, and you all have made it ABUNDANTLY clear you don’t feel that praying to Mary, bowing before her statue, serving her and sacrificing things to Mary is in ANY WAY idolatry.
So personally, I would not use that term.

We made very clear that we Catholics, aren’t idolaters. I hope you agree with us on that part.

 

[jmcrae]

We made very clear that we Catholics, aren’t idolaters. I hope you agree with us on that part.

She already said that she does.

Next lesson, please!!

 

[Linnyo]

‘Mariolaters’ would be infering idolatry, and you all have made it ABUNDANTLY clear you don’t feel that praying to Mary, bowing before her statue, serving her and sacrificing things to Mary is in ANY WAY idolatry.
So personally, I would not use that term.

Bowing before any statue, serving and sacrificing to anybody other that God WOULD be idolatry! Isn’t it a good thing that none of the Catholics here do that! Asking Mary to pray for them is perfectly ok though! That is just honoring the mother of Jesus. I didn’t know you thought we sacraficed things to Mary? That was a strange comment. Perhaps I misunderstood. I took it to be a bit offhand.

 

[YADA]

How could she if the fullness of the gospel was unknown at this time?

That Jesus would die for the sins of the world and rise again. All the things He would do in the gospels.

I have no reason to think she completely understood it completely by what we know in the gospels.

huh? Can you clarify?

You assert that Mary is not calling Jesus her Saviour because she did not know that he was…No where in scripture does it say that Mary did not know Jesus was her Savior…

In fact, the Scriptures seem pretty clear that Mary did recognize that Jesus was her savior even if she would not have been able to explain it…

Mary declares that her very soul magnifies the Lord…That the Almighty has lifted the lowly, that *all generations will call her Blessed - *this declaration is in response to Elizabeth calling Mary the "Mother of My Lord" Mary recognizes that this event has an impact upon salvation history…God is fullfilling the Promise made to Abraham, Issac and Jacob, our ancestors, the mighty are to be cast down.

This sounds like Mary understood more than you give her credit for…

Now inless it was a common Jewish practice to call unwed virgin girls the “Mother of my Lord” ANd I do not think that was the case as virgins are NOT mothers. And they definately would not be mothers of God!

 

[misslollipops]

Bowing before any statue, serving and sacrificing to anybody other that God WOULD be idolatry! Isn’t it a good thing that none of the Catholics here do that! Asking Mary to pray for them is perfectly ok though! That is just honoring the mother of Jesus. I didn’t know you thought we sacraficed things to Mary? That was a strange comment. Perhaps I misunderstood. I took it to be a bit offhand.

Are you aware of the first promise of the rosary?

Fifteen Promises of Mary to those who recite her Holy Rosary

Imparted to Saint Dominic and Blessed Alan

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive single graces.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Are you aware of the first promise of the rosary?

Fifteen Promises of Mary to those who recite her Holy Rosary

Imparted to Saint Dominic and Blessed Alan

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive single graces.

Are you aware that the Catholic Church doesn’t require a Catholic to pray the rosary?

 

[YADA]

Misslollypops,

Have you taken a step back from your position regarding the people who have left this earthly life behind not having the abilty to see, hear and communicate?

you never responded to my post #197…

 

[Gamera]

Bowing before any statue, serving and sacrificing to anybody other that God WOULD be idolatry! Isn’t it a good thing that none of the Catholics here do that! Asking Mary to pray for them is perfectly ok though! That is just honoring the mother of Jesus. I didn’t know you thought we sacraficed things to Mary? That was a strange comment. Perhaps I misunderstood. I took it to be a bit offhand.

My answer would differ.

True, we don’t worship Mary, and we don’t serve or sacrifice to Mary in a worshipful manner, so in that sense your underlying meaning is correct. But yes, we do serve and sacrifice to Mary and to other people. For instance, I serve my wife and I make sacrifices for her. That doesn’t equate to worship.

I serve and make sacrifices for my son. That doesn’t mean I worship him.

The pope is the servant of the laity (“the servant of the servants of Christ”). Does that mean the pope worships the laity?

I serve my clients in my practice. That doesn’t mean I worship them.

I have no problem with the idea of giving other people service and making sacrifices for them. And I like to please Mary by giving her honor.

Worship, of course, belongs to God alone.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Are you aware of the first promise of the rosary?

Fifteen Promises of Mary to those who recite her Holy Rosary

Imparted to Saint Dominic and Blessed Alan

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve meby the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive single graces.

Have you taken into account these other promises.

I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire Celestial Court during their life and at the hour of death.

or

All who recite the Rosary are my Sons, and brothers of my Only Son Jesus Christ.

Explanation:

Since the Rosary is a most excellent prayer focused on Jesus and His Life and activities in salvation history, it brings us closer to Our Lord and Our Lady. Doctrinally, Our Lady is our Mother and Jesus is our Eldest Brother, besides being our God.