Praying the Hail Mary

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The woman in rev12 is refering to the nation of israel.
The ‘rest of her offspring’ in verse 17 is refering to the believing remnant of Jews.
That is one way of viewing the verse. Another is that it is Mary. Both are valid. When one uses scripture as an either/or proof text to justify one’s personal views one runs a serious risk of missing the depth of meaning in scripture.
 
The woman in rev12 is refering to the nation of israel.
The ‘rest of her offspring’ in verse 17 is refering to the believing remnant of Jews.
That’s one interpretation, but look at the context of Chapter 12.

All the individuals mentioned in that Chapter --the Dragon, Michael, and the Child – are all personal beings: respectively Satan, Michael the Archangel, and Jesus. It follows that the Woman can also be seen as a personal being. Since she is described as the mother of the child, and Jesus is that Child, the only personal being the Woman could be is Mary, the mother of Jesus.

The Woman of Revelation 12 has been interpreted to be Mary, or Israel, or the Church. All of these are legitimate inferences from the context of the text itself.
 
Francisco was receiving a private revelation about himself - it was not meant to be a general principle for everyone.
So, praying the Rosary is efficacious for salvation for some, but not all. That doesn’t pass “the sniff test”.
He was also only six or seven years old at the time; he can hardly be expected to give a theological dissertation about what he experienced in his vision.
He was only six or seven years old at the time…and yet The Church affirms his vision, and those of his siblings 🤷
 
So, praying the Rosary is efficacious for salvation for some, but not all. That doesn’t pass “the sniff test”.
It was the missing piece of his spirituality - the one thing that he wasn’t doing was praying with his whole heart and his whole mind. He was getting everything else right - he was a daily Mass attender, he was studying his Catechism and reading the Bible to the extent that a child that young can do, and he was an honest and hard worker - he took good care of his little flock of sheep, and attended faithfully to his daily duties. All he lacked was a good prayer life - and for him, the way to get there was to pray the Rosary in an attentive manner.
He was only six or seven years old at the time…and yet The Church affirms his vision, and those of his siblings 🤷
Absolutely. After nearly a century of study, his visions and those of his sister Jacinta and his friend Lucia have been found to be in perfect accord with the teachings of the Church - their “Blue Lady” told them nothing that contradicts any teaching of the Church.
 
The woman in rev12 is refering to the nation of israel.
The ‘rest of her offspring’ in verse 17 is refering to the believing remnant of Jews.
And I guess that is your “infallable” interpretation upon the sole and only meaning to be attributed to Revelation 12…

But others have a different interpretation…they read the same passage, they receive guidance from the Holy Spirit they read the commentaries, they look to the teachings and writings of the early church fathers and the church…

You are not the sole authoritative voice interpreting scripture verses…

Revelation chapter 11 and 12 - do, in fact, reference Mary, the Mother of God, the Ark of the New Covenant, and the New Eve…
 
So, praying the Rosary is efficacious for salvation for some, but not all. That doesn’t pass “the sniff test”.
Don’t be confused. The Rosary is a popular devotion, not a liturgical norm. For some it may be a prominent part of their spiritual walk; for others not. Selling everything you have can be a necessary move for some to achieve salvation while for others it is not. The ony Way is Christ, but He indicates that different people may drive in different lanes of the highway.
He was only six or seven years old at the time…and yet The Church affirms his vision, and those of his siblings 🤷
Why is this troubling? The visions were examined thoroughly after the fact and it was determined that their content iis consistent with the Christian faith. It would not matter how old the visionary was.
 
But are you aware that Francisco Marto was told by Mary at Fatima that he would go to heaven if he prayed many Rosaries.?
The Fatima children had been routinely whipping through their rosaries by saying only the first words of each prayer. “Our Father, Hail Mary, Hail Mary, Hail Mary …” The Fatima apparition told Francisco that he would go to heaven but that he would have to say many rosaries. In other words, Francisco would have to take his spiritual life more seriously.

An excellent resource for understanding Fatima is William Thomas Walsh’s “The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima.”
 
Hey, Team! Could we lighten up on lolli? She’s been walkin’ a pretty broken road in her spiritual journey, and we don’t help by being cranky with her.

A lot of people who leave the Catholic Church come to a relationship with Christ that they did not have before they left, and we should rejoice for them. The problem is, that you ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE that relationship inside the house, and if you were not guided to it in the Church, then, whose fault is that? True: some people are culpable in their ignorance. But most people, seeking Truth, do not deliberately wander off into the swamps.

Trouble is, apart from the desire to bring souls to Christ, a lot of non-Catholic faith traditions (even those traditions that openly appropriate Catholic theology and trappings) are not-so-subtly anti-Catholic because they arise from the spirit of dissent.

Add to that the problem that in the U.S., at least, we think that God is a democracy. It’s a tough combination of influences to overcome.
 
Now I am understanding the Catholic position a little better.
The rosary is your bible. Now I understand. Thanks

On a side note, I never contemplated any mysteries while reciting the rosary. I was never taught to do so. Maybe that is why it never became my bible.
I know what you mean. I did not "get’ this either. If it was taught, I did not learn it. To this day, I cannot pray the rosary this way. I now pray it every day, but have never been successful in using it to meditate on the mysteries. I really am lost as to how people manage to do this.

For me, it works much better to memorize the Bible verses, or listen to the Bible on CD, and pray in tongues. However, I don’t begrudge this to people for whom it works, and it sure makes sense that, if you can’t afford a Bible (back when the Rosary started) and there are no CD’s, it would be a good way to learn and remember the gospel message.
 
😛 I am not sure how to take that. Out of charity I will assume that you meant it honestly.

The mysteries of the rosary is a shortened version of the gospels. So when you contemplate the mysteries, you contemplate the life of Christ.

The phrase “the rosary is the bible” should be understood as “the rosary is biblical”
I don’t think she meant it that way. She was never taught to read the Bible as a Catholic child, and did not “discover” it until she joined a fundamentalist sect as an adult. She considers that Catholics are not Christian and are not interested or taught about the Bible, and substitute things for true Christianity, like praying the Rosary instead of reading/praying the Bible.
 
And I guess that is your “infallable” interpretation upon the sole and only meaning to be attributed to Revelation 12…

But others have a different interpretation…they read the same passage, they receive guidance from the Holy Spirit they read the commentaries, they look to the teachings and writings of the early church fathers and the church…

You are not the sole authoritative voice interpreting scripture verses…

Revelation chapter 11 and 12 - do, in fact, reference Mary, the Mother of God, the Ark of the New Covenant, and the New Eve…
I looked up in the New American Bible (catholic) and this is what it says in the footnotes on the woman in Revelations 12:1;

1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12. This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.

It appears that this particular catholic interpretation supports the protestant view.
 
I’m glad it is not only me!
I was beginning to think I was in the twilight zone or something, like my catholic upbringing was different from everyone elses.
Thanks for sharing that.
No, sadly I think your experience is far too common. I think if Catholics understood their faith, they would never feel the need to leave the Church. I left because I did not believe I was being “fed”. I did not recognize Jesus in the breaking of the bread.
I already knew the rosary is not required for salvation.
How could it be?
This is why I say that your questions are disingenous. You already have answers to the questions you post. You are not really looking for answers for yourself. I am not really sure what you are looking for. why are you here?

Why would you concern yourself over what “official catholic teaching” is when you have already rejected it? 🤷
Rosary can be used as a bible study?
I don’t think so. Meditation, definitely, but I think of study differently.
 
I looked up in the New American Bible (catholic) and this is what it says in the footnotes on the woman in Revelations 12:1;

1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12. This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.

It appears that this particular catholic interpretation supports the protestant view.
We would say, of course, that Protestants in this case do not reject ONE of the Catholic views, not that “the Catholic interpretation supports the protestant view.”

Catholics are free to understand the Woman clothed with the sun as Israel, the Church, or Mary . . . The highly suggestive text supports all of these interpretations.
 
Contemplating mysteries or not, I still wouldn’t pray the rosary.
It puts something before God. I don’t do that anymore.
It would be a sin for you to pray the Rosary. I am glad you won’t do it.
You mean you open the bible and read it as you are saying the hail Mary?
Personally I can’t read and pray at the same time
I can read in a prayerful state, and this helps me mediate on scripture, but I have never mastered this skill they speak of where they say one thing with the lips, and think about another in the mind at the same time. Maybe I have some sort of brain damage, but I cannot do it. I thought maybe it was just something I needed to practice, but I have been praying the Rosary daily now for almost a year and a half, and I still have not been able to make it work. I am glad it is a private devotional, because I think it just does not work for everyone the same way.
I wonder how you copy and pasted the verse as it appears in the nkjv.
As far as I know the catholic position is ‘full of grace’ and that is where the immaculate conception doctrine is hinged on.
This is not the case, miss. The doctrine is hinged on the Apostolic Tradtion, which comes from the Teaching of Jesus. None of the Catholic Teachings come from the Scripture, or are “hinged” on scripture. The Teaching of Jesus and the Apostles all preceeded scripture. Scripture is a reflection of these teachings, not the source.
 
We would say, of course, that Protestants in this case do not reject ONE of the Catholic views, not that “the Catholic interpretation supports the protestant view.”

Catholics are free to understand the Woman clothed with the sun as Israel, the Church, or Mary . . . The highly suggestive text supports all of these interpretations.
Do you happen to know what if the catechism supports the view that Mary is the woman of Revelations 12?
 
How do you know where the saints are?
The infallible Church tells us.
Are you sure that every one of the thousands of saints is in heaven and they can hear your prayers and will do your bidding by bringing your request to the Father?
Can you be 100% sure?
No more than one can be 100% sure that God hears our prayers. There are many things we do that can hinder our prayers, and sometimes, we are not conscious of them. In any case, it is rude to say “do your bidding”. What a disrespectful way to treat those who have gone before us in the faith! How is that attitude honorable?! :eek:
We know from scripture that Jesus lives to make intercession for us but as for anyone else we don’t know for certain.
We know that nothing can separate those “in Christ” from the love of God, even death. We know that scripture teaches us to pray for one another.
1 Timothy 2:5 (New International Version)
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
God is so generous to share with us his role of intercession! 👍
 
Do you happen to know what if the catechism supports the view that Mary is the woman of Revelations 12?
I scanned the *Catechism *for it without success, but in Munificentissumus Deus, the promulgation of the dogma of the Assumption, Pope Pius XII referred to it:
  1. Moreover, the scholastic Doctors have recognized the Assumption of the Virgin Mother of God as something signified, not only in various figures of the Old Testament, but also in that woman clothed with the sun whom John the Apostle contemplated on the Island of Patmos.
 
None of the Catholic Teachings come from the Scripture, or are “hinged” on scripture. The Teaching of Jesus and the Apostles all preceeded scripture. Scripture is a reflection of these teachings, not the source.

Interesting statement.
 
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