Praying the Hail Mary

[guanophore]

It is truly a sad thing when a person who was blessed with the fullness of faith winds up throwing that away for something ‘less’.

Sort of like a person being handed a delicious orange, peeling it, then throwing away the segments, and even the peel, and carefully, ceremoniously eating the little pip stem, and then boasting how HIS orange was the BEST orange in the world. . .

I don’t think this is an accurate characterization for what happneed to misslollipops. I don’t think she ever had the fullness of faith. She was baptized, but not catechized, and never understood what Catholicism teaches. She may have been handed an orange, but never peeled it, and did not recognize it as an orange, or even anything edible or useful. It was more like it seemed like a rubber ball.

However, she may have tasted the peel, and it was bitter.

So it is like asking someone who has died to do something for you. Say your dad dies, you ask him to watch over your children or something like that.
Is that what it is like?

I don’t think so. I have no assurance that my dad is in heaven. I hope that he is, and pray that he is, but since it has not been divinely revealed to me that he is, I would have no assurance that my prayers can be heard by him. It is only those whom the Church has assured me are in heaven that I can trust, through the power of the HS, are able to hear my prayers.

I am posting with you here, so I have assurance that you are alive. If I ask you to pray for me, then I can trust that you will take my concerns before the throne of grace.

 

[misslollipops]

I don’t think this is an accurate characterization for what happneed to misslollipops. I don’t think she ever had the fullness of faith. She was baptized, but not catechized, and never understood what Catholicism teaches. She may have been handed an orange, but never peeled it, and did not recognize it as an orange, or even anything edible or useful. It was more like it seemed like a rubber ball.

However, she may have tasted the peel, and it was bitter.

If you read some of my previous posts, you will see that the
PEOPLE in the catholic faith were the biggest reason for me leaving.
Sadly, many of the interactions on this site leave me feeling the same way. More peel.

 

[mercygate]

If you read some of my previous posts, you will see that the
PEOPLE in the catholic faith were the biggest reason for me leaving.
Sadly, many of the interactions on this site leave me feeling the same way. More peel.

GK Chesterton, one of the most prominent converts to the Catholic Church of the 20th Century said that he would have converted years earlier except for one thing: CATHOLICS!

 

[guanophore]

Are you saying that after you die, you still have the gifts of the spirit listed on 1cor12 such as tongues, healings, wisdom, etc.
And you can use those gifts to edify those in the body of Christ which are still living on earth?
So the dead edify the living?

Why would God revoke the gifts of the Spirit, just because someone discarded the veil of flesh? No, “the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” Rom 11:29, He does not take them back.

The purpose of the gifts is to edify the body.

Those “in Christ” are not dead, but alive forever more. There is only One Body. All who are in Christ are members of His One Body, the Church.

 

[guanophore]

It is more like asking someone who has died to ask Jesus to do something for me. I never ask a saint in heaven to “do” anything of their own power. All I ask is that the saint pray to Jesus for me.

I do. I ask St. Anthony to help me find things all the time, and he does! Bless his sweet heart.

 

[guanophore]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New International Version)

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

How do you explain this verse from King Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived?

He accurately describes the fate of those who fail to find life in Christ.

Deuteronomy 18:11-12 (New International Version)
11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

Good thing the saints are alive, then!

“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26

James 5:16 (New King James Version)
.
16 Confess your trespasses[a] to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

What makes you think that those who have gone to be with the Lord are less effectve, fervent, or righteous than those that are still here?

Phil 1:19-23

19 Yes, and I shall rejoice. For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, 20 as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

How can you read passages like this, and think that the Saints are not with God?

 

[misslollipops]

It is only those whom the Church has assured me are in heaven that I can trust, through the power of the HS, are able to hear my prayers.

And the church knows they are in heaven HOW?
And the church knows they can read your mind when you pray
silently, HOW?
And the church knows they can physically hear your voice, HOW?
And the church knows they can actually pray for you HOW?

 

[misslollipops]

I do. I ask St. Anthony to help me find things all the time, and he does! Bless his sweet heart.

I used to pray to St Anthony.
I used to even bury statues of ST Joseph upside down in the ground.

I don’t do that any more.
If I need to find something I pray directly to Jesus and it works every time.

I don’t doubt that the St Anthony prayer works. But if it angers my jealous Father God, then I would rather just pray to Jesus.

 

[clmowry]

I scanned the *Catechism *for it without success, but in Munificentissumus Deus, the promulgation of the dogma of the Assumption, Pope Pius XII referred to it:

1. Moreover, the scholastic Doctors have recognized the Assumption of the Virgin Mother of God as something signified, not only in various figures of the Old Testament, but also in that woman clothed with the sun whom John the Apostle contemplated on the Island of Patmos.

I see noting directly in the Catechsim either. The references are all back to other Chruch documents.

Chuk

 

[guanophore]

Of course we can pray for one another while we are alive
Not after we are dead though.
Can you see the difference?

No, I do not. Jesus says that He is the the God of the living, and that all are alive unto Him. Much more those in Christ.

 

[water]

I don’t doubt that the St Anthony prayer works. But if it angers my jealous Father God, then I would rather just pray to Jesus.

You are being confused. St. Anthony prayer works not because St. Anthony grants you what you ask, but because God works through St. Anthony … just like God work through you to help other people or God grants you your prayer for someone else. Therefore, God never gets jealous of this - It is how He usually does for Him to be glorified.

Didn’t the apostles and Jesus’ disciples healed the sick, casted out the demons in His name? Does this anger God or glorify Him?

 

[misslollipops]

What makes you think that those who have gone to be with the Lord are less effectve, fervent, or righteous than those that are still here?

See my reference to ecclisiastes.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New King James Version)

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

 

[heisenburg]

I used to even bury statues of ST Joseph upside down in the ground.

Just as a note…

This is the dumbest man made tradition started by really dumb catholics that are looking for some superstitious method for selling a house… :banghead:

Whats worse is that people actually believe this is a Church teaching…:doh2:

Miss… you are absolutely right in questioning this one practice.

That being said… remember ALL prayers sanctioned by the church ultimately point to Christ. Praying with the saints in heaven is NO different than me praying with you. with the exception of they are in heaven, and per the bible, their prayers hold more weight “The prayers of the righteous man have great weight”

Anyway… I’m sure there is, but didn’t really look… the upside down statue mess… i wished there was a smiley that, well, was returning his once eaten lunch

In Christ

 

[guanophore]

Isn’t the post you quoted about tradition?
I don’t think I ever used the term hooey.

No, hooey was my word. Yes, it was about tradition. But, it is a tradition of the church to pray to saints, so the passage still applies. You believe prayer to the saints is a human tradition, right, man made? Contrary to the Word of God? In other words, “hooey”!

The people who are in heaven are alive.
But there is no way to know that a person on earth who has died,
is actually in heaven.
Furthermore there is no way of knowing if that person who died can read your mind to hear your prayers, or physically hear them.

Because we know that God is capable of making the members of the body aware of what other members need.

You say the church tells us who is in heaven, but how do they know? Where did they come up with the criteria for who makes it in to heaven?

God reveals it to them, just like He revealed the nature of Christ (hypostatic union), the Trinity, and which books belong in the Bible.

Does the church know what is going on in the hearts and minds of those that die?

Because we know what was in their hearts and minds before they die (Christ) and we believe it has not changed.

We can see from the recent saying of the saintly Mother Theresa that even she doubted that God even existed.

Do you think that means she is not in heaven?

How can anyone but God claim to know what is in the hearts of men?

Those to whom God chooses to reveal it. This probably belongs on another thread. Do you think God does not reveal the hearts of men to others? How did Peter know that Ananias and Sapphira were lying?

 

[misslollipops]

Just as a note…

This is the dumbest man made tradition started by really dumb catholics that are looking for some superstitious method for selling a house… :banghead:

Whats worse is that people actually believe this is a Church teaching…:doh2:

Miss… you are absolutely right in questioning this one practice.

That being said… remember ALL prayers sanctioned by the church ultimately point to Christ. Praying with the saints in heaven is NO different than me praying with you. with the exception of they are in heaven, and per the bible, their prayers hold more weight “The prayers of the righteous man have great weight”

Anyway… I’m sure there is, but didn’t really look… the upside down statue mess… i wished there was a smiley that, well, was returning his once eaten lunch

In Christ

The upside down statue worked for me 4 times. Made a ton of money. But I can’t do it anymore. Because it dishonors God.
Now I rely on Him solely.

 

[mercygate]

And the church knows they are in heaven HOW?

I think you are mixing up the saints and the Saints. All people in heaven are saints (and many of us on earth are saints too!). The Church “knows” that certain saints are in heaven via the rigorous process of canonization, which entails an exhaustive probe of their entire life, and must be ratified by miracles that can be explained by no other reason other than divine intervention attributed to the intercession of that person.

I personally am acquainted with the cardiolgist entrusted with verifying the clinching miracle for the Cause of St. Faustina Kowalska’s canonization. He submitted the medical records to 8 internationally-known experts in the field without telling them why. They could not explain the medical findings AT ALL.

And the church knows they can read your mind when you pray silently, HOW?

The Saints are one in will and heart with Christ. His will is their will. It is believed that they no longer are subject to all of the limits that restricted them in the flesh. Since they are now perfected in charity, it is believed that their charity “conquers all things” and reaches out, as does the Love of Christ, to all of His people. In the Communion of Saints (most Protestants have this doctrine also), the Communion beyond the flesh is more real, and more effective than it is down here in the land of time and space.

And the church knows they can physically hear your voice, HOW?

This question would be a non-starter in the Catholic view. They are not yet united with their physical ressurection body, so the question does not apply.

And the church knows they can actually pray for you HOW?

They are one in Christ. What does Christ do? He intercedes for us at the right hand of God (Rom 8:34). The Saints in union with Christ do what he does (didn’t he say, “Follow me”?). Christ may be the singular mediator in being True Man and True God, but the intercession is something all Christians share in when we pray for one another…

 

[guanophore]

All brothers and sisters who have posted here,

I believe that all of you who have written many well worded, well thought out, well quoted posts, are in a sense, being pulled in to a fruitless “debate” with someone who is not interested in learning about how Christ really lives and breathes in our Catholic faith. She is not even reading them thoroughly, except to pull out snippets to “counter” with other snippets of scripture. She obviously does not really want to return to her Catholic roots, however poorly formed they were.

I say, do not be tempted to lose charity. It is commendable to want to help someone, and to defend our beautiful Lord and His Church. But neither does this one want to be helped or truly educated, nor is she engaging in a true exchange with any integrity, and she is not succeeding in any real attack that has any substance.

I would not go so far as to say you are wasting your time, and I commend all who have valiantly posted many times, but truly believe it is prayer that is in order here ( yes, rosaries!) for this soul to meet God again in His Church and to encounter His mother in her love for this one and all who do not come to her, for she wants to lead us all home!

God Bless you all and Peace!

You are right, of course. I am not just posting for misslollipops, though. If you look at the stats on this thread, you can see that there are over ten time as many “lurkers” reading it than there are participants. It is also my prayer that those reading it may have their faith strengthened, and they may see the foolishness of the fundamental world view.

 

[water]

All brothers and sisters who have posted here,

I believe that all of you who have written many well worded, well thought out, well quoted posts, are in a sense, being pulled in to a fruitless “debate” with someone who is not interested in learning about how Christ really lives and breathes in our Catholic faith. She is not even reading them thoroughly, except to pull out snippets to “counter” with other snippets of scripture. She obviously does not really want to return to her Catholic roots, however poorly formed they were.

I say, do not be tempted to lose charity. It is commendable to want to help someone, and to defend our beautiful Lord and His Church. But neither does this one want to be helped or truly educated, nor is she engaging in a true exchange with any integrity, and she is not succeeding in any real attack that has any substance.

I would not go so far as to say you are wasting your time, and I commend all who have valiantly posted many times, but truly believe it is prayer that is in order here ( yes, rosaries!) for this soul to meet God again in His Church and to encounter His mother in her love for this one and all who do not come to her, for she wants to lead us all home!

God Bless you all and Peace!

Thanks for the great reminder. It is what we all need to read before each time we even write or think anything.

This month is the Month of the Rosary.

 

[guanophore]

I didn’t know there were things in the bible that were untrue.
Please elarborate.

2 Tim 3:16-4:1
16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

This does not mean that everything contained in scripture is a commandment to practice.

2 Kings 8:12

He answered, “Because I know the evil that you will do to the children of Israel: Their strongholds you will set on fire, and their young men you will kill with the sword; and you will dash their children, and rip open their women with child.”

Here, God tells them to dash children (against stones) and rip open the pregnant women. Would you follow this commandment in your life today?

 

[guanophore]

Mary is not referring here to Jesus as Savior but the God of the OT.

Was the Second Person of the Trinity less of a Saviour before His incarnation?

True but Mary did not have in mind the full concept of the incarnation and its implications.

I agree with this. I don’t think the Church did, either, for several hundred years. It took a lot of heresies popping up and the Church seeking clarity on the Teachings that brought the full concepts out.