Praying the Hail Mary

[YADA]

If you are refering to rev5:8. The bowls are filled with incense. The incense is the prayers of the saints.
Saints are living people on earth who do the will of God.
All Christians are saints.
There is no indication from this passage that ‘saints’ means people who have been canonized and continue to pray.

That is exactly what I said. The prayers of people on earth are ‘carried’ to god by the saints that are in heaven…the martyrs cry out for vindication Jesus gives them an answer and information about what is happening here…

They can see and hear in heaven the things of earth…

This is far different than your ‘the dead know nothing stance’

And everyone in heaven prays, they worship they sing [as we join them during the mass] Holy, Holy, Holy…

You have my compassion and my prayers…I am so sorry your religious instruction was so inadequate and poor and you had such a terrible experience of God growing up…

 

[misslollipops]

I mean this in charity -[and yes you can say that it is just MHO] this type of attack makes a person seem small, pety and disingenuous and does little to further the dialogue…

You have my compassion and my prayers…I am so sorry your religious instruction was so inadequate and poor and you had such a terrible experience of God growing up…

---

…

Is this how you show compassion?

 

[HailMary]

If you are refering to rev5:8. The bowls are filled with incense. The incense is the prayers of the saints.
Saints are living people on earth who do the will of God.
All Christians are saints.
There is no indication from this passage that ‘saints’ means people who have been canonized and continue to pray.

Your definition of saints is limited, sadly.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:9-10

pops,
couple of questions:

1. In the context of this passage, what did they die for? Namely, what is the “word of God”? Is it Jesus Christ or the Bible?
2. Those that were “slain”, are they not praying to God?
3. Are these not saints? You said, “All Christians are saints.” Do you stop being a Christian in Heaven? Therefore, all people in Heaven are saints.
4. The people that were slain are praying for whom?

 

[misslollipops]

Your definition of saints is limited, sadly.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:9-10

pops,
couple of questions:

1. In the context of this passage, what did they die for? Namely, what is the “word of God”? Is it Jesus Christ or the Bible?
2. Those that were “slain”, are they not praying to God?
3. Are these not saints? You said, “All Christians are saints.” Do you stop being a Christian in Heaven? Therefore, all people in Heaven are saints.
4. The people that were slain are praying for whom?

This passage is refering to martyrs who died for God’s truth, probably that Jesus is Messiah, but it could be for some other truth.
They are also saints.
They are praying for God to avenge their murders.
They are not asking God to grant some wish for someone living.

 

[Church_Militant]

Saints are living people on earth

who do the will of God.According to you perhaps, but is that really what the Word of God teaches? I don’t think so…

All Christians are saints.
There is no indication from this passage that ‘saints’ means people who have been canonized and continue to pray.

Have you noticed Hebrews 12:1? And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Now I have never seen the “witnesses” (Fans) of any race that just sat stoically by, have you? How much more so would the saints in heaven intercede for us in our own races knowing of the eternal consequences of it?

Now if the New Testament says that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses as we run our race for the Lord, just what do we think those folks are doing? Ever been to race? No one sits there stoically, do they?

To me this passage makes it pretty clear that the faithful departed are not only aware of what we do (This of course by the will and power of God!), but they are actively interceding for us the way that race fans do.

I find it even harder to grasp how any soul that has won through so far as heaven or purgatory (knowing the struggles and spiritual warfare that all the “church militant” endures) would not be busily interceding for those of us running our race that has such eternal consequences. That just doesn’t sound like any of the faithful believers that I have ever heard of.

Here’s a link to a great Bible study on the Communion of Saints. Here’s the basic notes.
Well worth it.

 

[YADA]

Is this how you show compassion?

Praying to all the angels and saints for Missloolypops, Please place before my Savior - Jesus - all her needs and intentions. Open her heart and mind to the love of the community of believers - the Comunion of Saints and Please Lord Jesus - grant her peace… Amen

 

[Church_Militant]

This passage is refering to martyrs.
Who are also saints.

No argument there, though you seem to take a very Catholic position since you decree that martyrs are saints…

They are praying for God to avenge their murders.

The point he is making is that they are aware of what is going on on the earth. Something that most n-Cs say is not so, yet your own explanation shows that you believe otherwise.

They are not asking God to grant some wish

for someone living.See…this is precisely the does two things and gets you into trouble.

1. The Catholic Church does not teach that these saints “grant wishes”, so here you display a lack of understanding of Catholic belief
2. and in using that sort of rhetoric, you display a lack of charity and respect for the faith of the Catholics that you are speaking to and offend your Catholic readers.

Is that the best you can do?

 

[misslollipops]

According to you perhaps, but is that really what the Word of God teaches? I don’t think so…

Acts9:13
Acts9:32
Acts9:41
Rom 1:7
Rom8:27
and many other verses explain what a saint is
Go to concordance and look up saint

 

[Church_Militant]

Praying to all the angels and saints for Missloolypops, Please place before my Savior - Jesus - all her needs and intentions. Open her heart and mind to the love of the community of believers - the Comunion of Saints and Please Lord Jesus - grant her peace… Amen

 

[Church_Militant]

Acts9:13
Acts9:32
Acts9:41
Rom 1:7
Rom8:27
and many other verses explain what a saint is
Go to concordance and look up saint

Where precisely does it ever say that that only applies to the living here on earth?

And why didn’t you answer the actual meat of my post instead of this tidbit?

 

[misslollipops]

See eccl 9:5-8
Version: KJV

eccl 9:5-6

1. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

 

[YADA]

See eccl 9:5-8
Version: KJV

eccl 9:5-6

1. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Round and Round we go…

Are you back to the dead know nothing, see nothing, and hear nothing and are nothing…??? ???

Do you remember Lazarus, Abraham, the Rich Man, Moses, Elijah? …Lazarus [the friend who died thata caused Jesus to weep], raised from the dead [back to this life] and the souls that came forth from the tombs, walking around Jerusalem at the time of the crucifixion…people recognized them and they were walking around to be recognized - but these were people who were not brought back like Lazarus…

Scripture needs to be read in context and with understanding that incompasses the historical, cultural, theological, spiritual…

Please the Bible is not a “gotcha” book…

That is like the you must “hate your mother” passage…not what the verse means…as many have told you alread in various ways…

 

[Church_Militant]

See eccl 9:5-8
Version: KJV

eccl 9:5-6

1. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

You do realize that the Jews and particularly Solomon in that book (one of my personal favorites) have no concept at all of the resurrection of the dead, nor even heaven?

Do you also share their belief based on that passage?

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:38 For he is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him.

If the dead are not aware of life here on earth, then what were Moses and Elijah doing appearing on the hill when Our Lord was transfigured?

 

[misslollipops]

Round and Round we go…

Are you back to the dead know nothing, see nothing, and hear nothing and are nothing…??? ???

Do you remember Lazarus, Abraham, the Rich Man, Moses, Elijah? …Lazarus [the friend who died thata caused Jesus to weep], raised from the dead [back to this life] and the souls that came forth from the tombs, walking around Jerusalem at the time of the crucifixion…people recognized them and they were walking around to be recognized - but these were people who were not brought back like Lazarus…

Scripture needs to be read in context and with understanding that incompasses the historical, cultural, theological, spiritual…

Please the Bible is not a “gotcha” book…

That is like the you must “hate your mother” passage…not what the verse means…as many have told you alread in various ways…

The verse says they have no portion in anything done under the sun. ‘Under the sun’ means here on earth among the living.
What they do, wherever they are, is another matter.
Whether they can see or hear each other is not addressed in this passage.

 

[misslollipops]

You do realize that the Jews and particularly Solomon in that book (one of my personal favorites) have no concept at all of the resurrection of the dead, nor even heaven?

Do you also share their belief based on that passage?
?

Although this is the topic for another thread, do you believe the dead have been resurrected already?
Or will all the dead be resurrected at some time in the future?
As in the first resurrection?Rev20:5

 

[fellowChristian]

The whole bible was created by God.

Man’s will, intentions, and knowledge had nothing to do with it.

You still think God dropped a book from Heaven?

Even my 8 year old understands that God inspires men. That with God men wrote the Bible.

Look at history. Did God need Moses? NO! But He worked through Moses. He worked through lots of men.

Did God need Mary? NO! But He worked through her.

You behave as if God wants nothing to do with us!

Noah? Hello! God worked through him also.

The Apostles? Did God need them? NO! But He worked through them anyway.

We are His children. Both on earth and in heaven! Death does not seperate us from Him.(just talking about death not Hell) We are a family forever. A cloud of witnesses in Heaven!

My grandma is still my grandma even though she died. Death does not stop her from being part of my family.

You know God built the church too, yet you choose to ignore it. Weird too because the church gave us that book!

That is like buying the manual for a car you don’t own?! Kind of backwards don’t you think?

Do you use an employee handbook for a place you don’t work at?

Or buy a yearbook for a school you didn’t go to?

 

[mercygate]

Saints who have died can bring others back to life?
Can they heal people?
Can they also forgive sins?
If so could you point to the paragraph in the catechism that states these things.

It’s in Scripture. Jesus sends the Apostles as the Father sent Him (Jn 20). At the last supper He tells them that they will do things “greater than these.” It is an article of faith to believe that if Jesus promised this, then we are not to doubt it.

The power of God heals, and raises the dead through His holy ones. And you KNOW Catholics believe that even a sinner can forgive sins in His Name, since Jesus gave the Apostles the power to do that on the very day He rose from the dead.

So, yes. Healing is definitely on the menu of things that are wrought by God in response to the intercession of the saints.

 

[mercygate]

The whole bible was created by God.

Man’s will, intentions, and knowledge had nothing to do with it.

You are not suggesting that the Evangelists, St. Paul, and the other NT authors were automatons, robots whose pens moved as in automatic “spirit writing” are you? Of course the will and intentions of men had something to do with writing the New Testament. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit MEN wrote the words, and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit MEN discerned which of the many writings that claimed to be inspired actually WERE inspired. They made up the definitive list, and we call it the New Testament.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The whole bible was created by God.

Man’s will, intentions, and knowledge had nothing to do with it.

The writers of sacred scripture did not want to sit down at their desks and compose these books…they were forced against their will?

The writers of sacred scripture did not intend to write anything…they accidentally picked up their pens?

The writers of sacred scripture did not have any knowledge of the things they wrote about…they were infused with knowledge of events that they did not witness with their own eyes?

Thankfully, an infallible Church is a little clearer on the matter; from the Catechism of the Cathlolic Church:
106God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. “To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.”

The sacred writers made “full use of their own faculties and powers” and their “will, intentions and knowledge” had a lot to do with it.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[DebChris]

It’s in Scripture. Jesus sends the Apostles as the Father sent Him (Jn 20). At the last supper He tells them that they will do things “greater than these.” It is an article of faith to believe that if Jesus promised this, then we are not to doubt it.

The power of God heals, and raises the dead through His holy ones. And you KNOW Catholics believe that even a sinner can forgive sins in His Name, since Jesus gave the Apostles the power to do that on the very day He rose from the dead.

So, yes. Healing is definitely on the menu of things that are wrought by God in response to the intercession of the saints.

What is done is done not because of any righteousness on our part, but because of the power of God who works through us.
“Wherever two or more are gathered, there I am.” Even when we are alone, we need not be alone because our prayers are joined to those of the saints. Can the power of God be limited? Is he bound by time or space? It is only our lack of faith that can limit God’s power–re: Jesus’s inability to work any miracles in Nazareth.