Praying the Hail Mary

[Ignatius]

Simple question:

If you stopped praying the Hail Mary, would your salvation be affected?
If so, in what way would it be affected?

You misunderstand the terms. Since the Catholic Church preceeds the invention of the English language by 15 centuries or so, the translations often do not adequately express either the mind or understanding of the Church. We ask the Holy Angels and the Saints to join us in prayer to God. For example.

Won’t you join us in asking all of those who read this, all of the Holy Angles and all of the Saints in heaven, and you my sister, to pray for the safety and peace of all Christians around the world, especially those being persecuted for their Faith in Christ.

Since we Catholics believe that people don’t stop being members of the Body of Christ just because they pass over to be with Christ. So when we ask our congregations to pray, as I am sure your congregation does, we are asking all of not only all of those now alive in this world, but those who are already united with Christ in heaven to join us in prayer.

I hope this helps dispel some of your misunderstandings on this subject.

Grace and peace to you.

Your brother in Christ

 

[Pier]

You still think God dropped a book from Heaven?

Even my 8 year old understands that God inspires men. That with God men wrote the Bible.

Look at history. Did God need Moses? NO! But He worked through Moses. He worked through lots of men.

Did God need Mary? NO! But He worked through her.

You behave as if God wants nothing to do with us!

Noah? Hello! God worked through him also.

The Apostles? Did God need them? NO! But He worked through them anyway.

We are His children. Both on earth and in heaven! Death does not seperate us from Him.(just talking about death not Hell) We are a family forever. A cloud of witnesses in Heaven!

My grandma is still my grandma even though she died. Death does not stop her from being part of my family.

You know God built the church too, yet you choose to ignore it. Weird too because the church gave us that book!

That is like buying the manual for a car you don’t own?! Kind of backwards don’t you think?

Do you use an employee handbook for a place you don’t work at?

Or buy a yearbook for a school you didn’t go to?

To add to these statements -

God didn’t need angels for messengers either - He was (& is!) perfectly capable of delivering His own messages directly & getting His points across Himself…

So, although He didn’t HAVE to, He sent His obedient servants anyway.

 

[Gamera]

Mislollipops, how can you reconcile these two posts?

If you are refering to rev5:8. The bowls are filled with incense. The incense is the prayers of the saints.
Saints are living people on earth who do the will of God.
All Christians are saints.
There is no indication from this passage that ‘saints’ means people who have been canonized and continue to pray.

and …

This passage is refering to martyrs who died for God’s truth, probably that Jesus is Messiah, but it could be for some other truth.
They are also saints.
They are praying for God to avenge their murders.
They are not asking God to grant some wish for someone living.

Which is it? Are martyrs – who by definition have died, and now are in heaven — saints?

You’ve got two inconsistent lines of defense going here. If the dead “know nothing, see nothing,” then how can martyred saints in heaven be “praying to avenge their murders?” And if the martytered saints in heaven are “praying to avenge their murders” then how can you claim they “know nothing, see nothing?” Which is it?

 

[Teflon93]

It’s THROWING a Hail Mary which imperils your salvation.

Sorry, it’s football season.

 

[jpusateri]

Saints who have died can bring others back to life?
Can they heal people?
Can they also forgive sins?
If so could you point to the paragraph in the catechism that states these things.

Sounds incredible doesn’t it?

Matt 17:20 tells his followers that with faith the size of a mustard seed, mountains will move. This is understood as possible through people doing things not by their own power, but by the power of God.

Again we must tell you that 1) God listens to prayer and 2) the saints are alive in God (He is the God of the living)

Saints are those who are “in Christ.” As the Father is in the Son, so Jesus is in us.

Why would I point to a line in the Catechism about that? It writes itself.

People have come back from the dead, priests do forgive sins and heal people. All through the power of Christ in us.

 

[jpusateri]

The whole bible was created by God.

Man’s will, intentions, and knowledge had nothing to do with it.

Stop! It’s too funny.

So you are alleging that the Bible fell out of the sky, bound and ready to read in all different languages? Divided neatly into Book, chapters and verses? Please provide proof if you do.

You clearly don’t understand any of this.

God wrote the events. Man wrote them down in words that God willed, BUT DID NOT FORCE. So man MUST have chosen the words that were written. Denying that man had any part of scripture is ridiculous. God makes babies, but allows daddies and mommies to participate. We put our humanity into the child and God puts his spirit into the child and there you are.

God COULD of course make it any way he wills, but he chose to let us participate.

It’s the underlying theme of salvation history. He COULD have snapped his fingers and willed all people saved (or damned) without suffering or any earthly sign, but he didn’t. He let us participate. Mary, righteous people, St. Paul. None were coerced. All were given the option to stay or go.

The Bible is yet another example. People participated in its making giving it their own “flesh,” and God breathed his Spirit and gave it a spiritual dimension.

You go overboard separating God and man. God made man and decided to participate by becoming man. This does NOT mean he pulled some flesh onto his divinity, it means he BECAME man. Jesus is now eternally enfleshed.

This IS communion.

That the eternal, all-powerful God of the universe would stoop to BECOME a made-from-the-clay “man” is beyond comprehension. It is a stumbling block for many. So some reject it completely, some say “yes it happened, but God is just spiritual, but the clay is still gunky.”

Catholics accept both/and because that’s what God did. If God did something ELSE, then THAT’S what we’d believe.

We pursue the truth.

 

[Ignatius]

do you believe the dead have been resurrected already?

Ah! Now I see. You believe that those who are in Christ and depart this world are dead. That is so sad. The only reason some people don’t believe in asking for saintly intersession is because they believe that those saints in heaven are “dead" when Scripture tells us that those who have departed are alive in Christ.

I think it’s really sad that they have so little faith in Jesus, that somehow they think he failed in his mission to defeat death. Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by His death. Those who have left this life in His friendship are alive in Christ.

The saints in heaven are not dead! They are part of the body of Christ! Is Christ dead? Is any part of Christ dead? All those that are in Christ are alive. This is the beauty of Christ’s sacrifice, anyone who can not accept this has little appreciation of that sacrifice, and ultimately a lack of confidence in the risen Lord.

 

[misslollipops]

Ah! Now I see. You believe that those who are in Christ and depart this world are dead. That is so sad. The only reason some people don’t believe in asking for saintly intersession is because they believe that those saints in heaven are “dead" when Scripture tells us that those who have departed are alive in Christ.

I think it’s really sad that they have so little faith in Jesus, that somehow they think he failed in his mission to defeat death. Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by His death. Those who have left this life in His friendship are alive in Christ.

The saints in heaven are not dead! They are part of the body of Christ! Is Christ dead? Is any part of Christ dead? All those that are in Christ are alive. This is the beauty of Christ’s sacrifice, anyone who can not accept this has little appreciation of that sacrifice, and ultimately a lack of confidence in the risen Lord.

You should study about the meaning of resurrection.

 

[misslollipops]

Mislollipops, how can you reconcile these two posts?

and …

Which is it? Are martyrs – who by definition have died, and now are in heaven — saints?

You’ve got two inconsistent lines of defense going here. If the dead “know nothing, see nothing,” then how can martyred saints in heaven be “praying to avenge their murders?” And if the martytered saints in heaven are “praying to avenge their murders” then how can you claim they “know nothing, see nothing?” Which is it?

See post 349

 

[Zooey]

Which dictionary did you use to get that
char·i·ty (chăr’ĭ-tē)
n., pl. -ties.
Provision of help or relief to the poor; almsgiving.
Something given to help the needy; alms.
An institution, organization, or fund established to help the needy.
Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.
Indulgence or forbearance in judging others. See synonyms at mercy.
often Charity Christianity. The theological virtue defined as love directed first toward God but also toward oneself and one’s neighbors as objects of God’s love.
[Middle English charite, from Old French, Christian love, from Latin cāritās, affection, from cārus, dear.]

Cassell’s Latin Dictionary,1959; & White Latin Dictionary, 1928. And yourself?

Saints who have died can bring others back to life?

Yes.

Can they heal people?

Yes.

Can they also forgive sins?

No, but they can (and do) pray & ask God to forgive sins.

If so could you point to the paragraph in the catechism that states these things.

2000 years of history is not enough??

See eccl 9:5-8
Version: KJV

eccl 9:5-6

1. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Yeah, yeah; we know. You believe that Ecclesiastes is to be trusted over:doh2: the entire New Testament… :dts: Despite the fact that Ecclesiastes was written as an example to show what a mess man is in without God.uch:

 

[jmcrae]

You should study about the meaning of resurrection.

It’s true that the majority of the Saints in Heaven do not have their bodies, yet. (Mary has, in fact, been resurrected - and there are some others who also have already been resurrected - there is a verse in the Gospel of Matthew that shows a whole city of Old Testament Saints being resurrected and walking around in Jerusalem until they ascended - I’m not clear on when, exactly, they ascended into Heaven, but they were walking about on the earth during the same time period that Jesus was, after His resurrection.)

However, the Book of Revelation is abundantly clear that even those who are not yet resurrected, are conscious, and praying for us.

 

[ElizabethPH]

They are not asking God to grant some wish for someone living.

God doesn’t grant wishes as if a genie out of a bottle.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The writers of sacred scripture did not want to sit down at their desks and compose these books…they were forced against their will?

The writers of sacred scripture did not intend to write anything…they accidentally picked up their pens?

The writers of sacred scripture did not have any knowledge of the things they wrote about…they were infused with knowledge of events that they did not witness with their own eyes?

Thankfully, an infallible Church is a little clearer on the matter; from the Catechism of the Cathlolic Church:106God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. “To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.”
The sacred writers made “full use of their own faculties and powers” and their “will, intentions and knowledge” had a lot to do with it.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Bumped due to lack of response by Misslollipops.

 

[aimee]

Bumped due to lack of response by Misslollipops.

I read your post…very good…

 

[fellowChristian]

I read it also…waiting for a response? Its hard to argue with someone who makes sense.

On the flip side…

How do they “know” saints are dead? How do they “know” Mary isn’t in Heaven? Where in the Bible (since that is their sole authority) does it say Mary is not in heaven? I can see why people are lost. The Bible is not “complete” on its own. It was not meant to stand on its own. Not everything Jesus did is written there. The Bible even says so. Thats your first “clue”. You get the other “clues” when you read

2 Peter 3:16
speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things **hard to understand **that the **ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. **

**2 Peter 1:20 **
Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of **scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, **

**Acts 8:27 **
So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,
28
and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
29
The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.”
30
Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, **“Do you understand what you are reading?”
31
He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” **So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

**How come you ignore these verses? **

         Why didn't the other 9 Apostles write a "Bible"?

Did you know there was no “Bible” for almost 4 centuries? Thats 400 years. Did you think God made us wait for the “book” to come out?

I know " That is another thread."

 

[justasking4]

In Hebrews 4:14-16 Jesus is referred to as the Priest High Priest who intercedes for us before the Father.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Is Mary in scripture ever presented as a high priest?

 

[jmcrae]

Is Mary in scripture ever presented as a high priest?

Of course not; why would she be? In the first place, there can be many priests, but there can only be one High Priest, and secondly, Jesus never ordained her to the priesthood - she was not present when the Apostles were being Ordained.

The fact that the High Priest (who is called “High” to differentiate him from his helper priests) intercedes for the people with the sacrificial offering (which he then gives to the helper priests to distribute to the people) does not mean that we cannot pray for ourselves, or for each other.

Indeed, throughout both the Old and the New Testaments, we are continually exhorted to pray - the High Priest does the most important thing, but he does not do everything.

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;2845038]Of course not; why would she be?

What is the function of Jesus as the High Priest for us?

In the first place, there can be many priests, but there can only be one High Priest,

Is there any mention of the believers who have died referred to as priests who continue to intercede for us?

and secondly, Jesus never ordained her to the priesthood - she was not present when the Apostles were being Ordained.

That is true. So we have no mention in the entire scripture of Mary ever being mentioned as a priest who intercedes for believers.

The fact that the High Priest (who is called “High” to differentiate him from his helper priests) intercedes for the people with the sacrificial offering (which he then gives to the helper priests to distribute to the people) does not mean that we cannot pray for ourselves, or for each other.

This is where context will help us to determine the limits of “helper priests”. Is there any mention in scripture that after a “helper priest” dies that he still intercedes for the living here on earth?

Indeed, throughout both the Old and the New Testaments, we are continually exhorted to pray - the High Priest does the most important thing, but he does not do everything.

It is true there are disctinctions and these disctinctions and boundaries must always be kept in mind when it comes to prayer. We have direct access to the Father through Christ our High Priest. Only He alone has the power to intercede directly to the Father for us. Believers in this world can pray to Him for others needs. There is no mention of the third category of praying to those who have died also. In fact Ecclesiastes 9:4-6;10 goes against the very idea of praying to those who have died.

 

[jmcrae]

What is the function of Jesus as the High Priest for us?

To die on the Cross for our sins, and to return to us at every Mass under the appearance of bread and wine, so that we can consume Him, as the perfect Sacrifice for our sins.

Is there any mention of the believers who have died referred to as priests who continue to intercede for us?

Not that I am aware of.

That is true. So we have no mention in the entire scripture of Mary ever being mentioned as a priest who intercedes for believers.

She intercedes as a fellow believer - not as a priest. She does not make any Sacrifices on our behalf, and nor does she perform the miracle of Transubstantiation on the Altar at Mass.

This is where context will help us to determine the limits of “helper priests”. Is there any mention in scripture that after a “helper priest” dies that he still intercedes for the living here on earth?

In the writings of the Early Fathers, there is mention that the priests of the Early Church, when they were being taken away to be martyred, promised to pray for people when they got to Heaven. Some of the early heretics thought it was scandalous that people would go to priests in their jail cells and make their Confessions just before the priest was to be taken away and killed, so that their prayers for forgiveness would be taken with the priest directly to Heaven.

It is true there are disctinctions and these disctinctions and boundaries must always be kept in mind when it comes to prayer. We have direct access to the Father through Christ our High Priest. Only He alone has the power to intercede directly to the Father for us. Believers in this world can pray to Him for others needs. There is no mention of the third category of praying to those who have died also. In fact Ecclesiastes 9:4-6;10 goes against the very idea of praying to those who have died.

The writer of the book of Ecclesiastes (presumably Solomon) had no concept of an after-life.

 

[Gamera]

The whole bible was created by God.

Man’s will, intentions, and knowledge had nothing to do with it.

“I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.” 1 Cor. 1:16.

This verse proves that human authors’ “will, intentions and knowledge” did affect what was written in the Bible. Yes, every word is inspired (literally “God-breathed”), but each human author still had use of their own mind when writing.

“God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.” CCC 106.

Your concept that humans merely acted as secretaries, taking dictation, has never been the Christian view of Scripture. Rather, it is the Moslem view of how Mohammad allegedly wrote the Koran, strictly as a secretary without any human (name removed by moderator)ut. It also is an occult practice referred to as automatic writing.