Praying the Hail Mary

[Randy_Carson]

Where does it say that after you are dead you can still pray for people?

Do we pray with our physical bodies or with our spirits?

Remember, God wants those who worship in spirit and in truth.

Since our spirits are still alive though our bodies have fallen asleep, they continue to function as before - and even better!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Can the Saints Hear Our Prayers?

1. Jesus teaches from the Old Testament
“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

“But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” (Luke 20:37-38)

In this teaching recorded by two of the Gospel writers, Jesus tells us plainly that the Father is the God of the living.

2. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by parable
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ (Luke 16:19-31)

In this parable, Jesus has two of the “dead” characters in his story talking with one another, and one of the “dead” men intercedes on behalf of his living relatives.

3. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example
“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though.

4. Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example
Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive. (Acts 9:40-41)
5. Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers - John teaches through prophetic revelation
“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:7-8)

The 24 elders in heaven are men, and notice that they each have a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. That’s us since we’re all saints! So, how did they get hold of our prayers in order to offer them to God?

“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” (Revelation 8:3)

Here, an angel also offers our prayers along with incense.

 

[JButky]

Are you saying that after you die, you still have the gifts of the spirit listed on 1cor12 such as tongues, healings, wisdom, etc.
And you can use those gifts to edify those in the body of Christ which are still living on earth?
So the dead edify the living?

I said that the saints are not dead. The dead therefore cannot edify the living. We are not talking about dead saints (an oxymoron if ever there was one) anyway. You say that there is no need of the saints because they are dead. I am saying to you that the saints are not dead and they are connected to us, because Scripture says so. If the saints were given spiritual gifts and have passed on to life in Christ, then they have attained the fullness of their gifts. Do you think that the saints alive in Christ, who have attained perfection in Christ, somehow remain imperfect in their gifts? That would be an odd conclusion and once again a mockery of the power of Christ.

Why do you persist in the thought that the saints are dead and not connected to us and then go on to mock them? Where in Scripture does state that the saints are dead? As Scripture does says in

John 6:47: “He who believes in me has everlasting life” and
John 11:25 “He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.”

To claim that the saints are dead is therefore the source of failed reasoning. Once you have made this false assumption departing from clear reference in Scripture, the rest of your reasoning is also exposed as false.

I must again ask, why do you persist in mocking Christ and Scripture in this manner? Acceptance of Truth comes from humility. Mockery is not the demeanor of humility. If this is your intent, you will never find wisdom.

Joe B

 

[Randy_Carson]

Of course we can pray for one another while we are alive
Not after we are dead though.
Can you see the difference?

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New King James Version)

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

Misslollipops-

Are you a member of the Seventh Day Adventists?

 

[rtconstant]

Of course we can pray for one another while we are alive
Not after we are dead though.
Can you see the difference?

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New King James Version)

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

No I don’t see the difference. Again do you not believe in eternal life?

 

[guanophore]

I wonder what’s the point of the question.

God Bless,
Michael

On another thread miss indicated that she thinks this prayer is a bunch of hooey.

Mark7:6-13

6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

  ‘ This people honors Me with their lips,
  But their heart is far from Me.
   7 And in vain they worship Me,
  Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’[a]

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men**—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. **10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’;[c] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[d] 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

 

[misslollipops]

I said that the saints are not dead. The dead therefore cannot edify the living. We are not talking about dead saints (an oxymoron if ever there was one) anyway. You say that there is no need of the saints because they are dead. I am saying to you that the saints are not dead and they are connected to us, because Scripture says so. If the saints were given spiritual gifts and have passed on to life in Christ, then they have attained the fullness of their gifts. Do you think that the saints alive in Christ, who have attained perfection in Christ, somehow remain imperfect in their gifts? That would be an odd conclusion and once again a mockery of the power of Christ.

Why do you persist in the thought that the saints are dead and not connected to us and then go on to mock them? Where in Scripture does state that the saints are dead? As Scripture does says in

John 6:47: “He who believes in me has everlasting life” and
John 11:25 “He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.”

To claim that the saints are dead is therefore the source of failed reasoning. Once you have made this false assumption departing from clear reference in Scripture, the rest of your reasoning is also exposed as false.

I must again ask, why do you persist in mocking Christ and Scripture in this manner? Acceptance of Truth comes from humility. Mockery is not the demeanor of humility. If this is your intent, you will never find wisdom.

Joe B

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

 

[misslollipops]

Misslollipops-

Are you a member of the Seventh Day Adventists?

No

 

[misslollipops]

On another thread miss indicated that she thinks this prayer is a bunch of hooey.

Isn’t the post you quoted about tradition?
I don’t think I ever used the term hooey.

 

[misslollipops]

No I don’t see the difference. Again do you not believe in eternal life?

Of course I believe in eternal life.
But do I have to keep quoting ecclesiastes?

 

[Gamera]

Deuteronomy 18:11-12 (New International Version)
11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

How does the Hail Mary constitute “consulting the dead?” You are confusing necromancy with prayer.

Nowhere does the “Hail Mary” contain any “consulting” of the dead:

Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus
Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

None of those words contain any attempt to conjure Mary to appear or to give us information from beyond. You are confusing occultism with prayer to the dead. Nowhere does the Old Testament forbid prayer to the dead. It is conjuring and divination which are forbidden — by the verse you quote, and by the Catholic Church. “All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practives falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.” – Catechism of the Catholic Church 2116.

 

[rtconstant]

Of course I believe in eternal life.
But do I have to keep quoting ecclesiastes?

If you believe in eternal life then quit saying that those in Heaven are dead. Once more you can’t have it both ways. Either your living the life eternal in Heaven or you’re dead. You can’t just bounce back and forth to help your argument.

As for the quoting of the verse I guess you can stop at any time as it doesn’t apply to what we’re discussing. That verse is speaking to the fact that those that are dead no longer gain or have interest in earthly rewards. The Chapter as whole is speaking towards walking with joy while one is here on Earth.

However, if you are attempting to use the verse to prove the evangelical belief that we all become brain dead, numb and unresponsive when we enter Heaven then you have created another contradiction as the verse speaking of Abraham, Lazerus and rich man seems to suggest something other than that. The book or Revalations also contradicts this. Just in case you decide to be stuborn and persist in trying to apply this verse to Saints in Heaven I have a question. Why didn’t you use verse 4?

4For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

If we are to take your use of this chapter then are we to assume that it is also your belief that we here on Earth are better off than those in Heaven?

This is the danger one flirts with when they use the Bible as a series of stand alone verses with no context instead of a whole document.

So now that we’ve covered all of that do you now understand that those in Heave are alive?

 

[Fidelis]

Of course I believe in eternal life.
But do I have to keep quoting ecclesiastes?

It was answered back in Post #106. Since you never responded directly to that post, I’m guessing you’re having trouble keeping up.

Let me recap: Ecclesiastes is probably the *worst *book in the Old Testament to try to prove a point about the afterlife. Just as we can say that the OT people had an incomplete understanding of salvation and the afterlife because they did not have the full NT revelation of Christ, Ecclesiastes is even more unique in that the whole book is from the perspective of one who that thinks both life and death are completely futile – because the author’s concept of the afterlife was that of Sheol-- the shadowy place of death that the spirits of men went before heaven was open. It was as different from heaven as it could possibly be.

Those who hold that the writer of Ecclesiastes was Solomon think that it may have been written in his older, more cynical years after he had lost his fervor for serving the Lord. As we know from the Bible, he may have started out wise, but he had a bad ending.

To compare OT Sheol with the kind of life we have in heaven is to completely misread both the Old and New Testaments.

 

[misslollipops]

If you believe in eternal life then quit saying that those in Heaven are dead. Once more you can’t have it both ways. Either your living the life eternal in Heaven or you’re dead. You can’t just bounce back and forth to help your argument.

As for the quoting of the verse I guess you can stop at any time as it doesn’t apply to what we’re discussing. That verse is speaking to the fact that those that are dead no longer gain or have interest in earthly rewards. The Chapter as whole is speaking towards walking with joy while one is here on Earth.

However, if you are attempting to use the verse to prove the evangelical belief that we all become brain dead, numb and unresponsive when we enter Heaven then you have created another contradiction as the verse speaking of Abraham, Lazerus and rich man seems to suggest something other than that. The book or Revalations also contradicts this. Just in case you decide to be stuborn and persist in trying to apply this verse to Saints in Heaven I have a question. Why didn’t you use verse 4?

If we are to take your use of this chapter then are we to assume that it is also your belief that we here on Earth are better off than those in Heaven?

This is the danger one flirts with when they use the Bible as a series of stand alone verses with no context instead of a whole document.

So now that we’ve covered all of that do you now understand that those in Heave are alive?

The people who are in heaven are alive.
But there is no way to know that a person on earth who has died,
is actually in heaven.
Furthermore there is no way of knowing if that person who died can read your mind to hear your prayers, or physically hear them.
You say the church tells us who is in heaven, but how do they know?
Where did they come up with the criteria for who makes it in to heaven?
Does the church know what is going on in the hearts and minds of those that die?
We can see from the recent saying of the saintly Mother Theresa that even she doubted that God even existed.
How can anyone but God claim to know what is in the hearts of men?

 

[Fidelis]

How does the Hail Mary constitute “consulting the dead?” You are confusing necromancy with prayer.

Nowhere does the “Hail Mary” contain any “consulting” of the dead…

I explained all this to her back in Post #76. She pretty much ignored it back then too, just persisting in denial and sticking to the script.

"If I don’t acknowledge what they say, it’s like I never heard it, right? La la la la la la la…"

 

[YADA]

Perhaps you forgot that the rich man was not allowed to go back to tell his brothers anything

You miss the point of the passage…First the Rich Man sees from where he is [in the flames] to the place where Lazarus and Abraham are. The Rich Man sees and recognizes both Lazarus [who he would have known] ]nd Abraham [whom he would not know]. The Rich Man calls out [speaks to] them from his place to theirs and Abraham responds back to him…

You are correct that the characters did not cross [move between] the chasm nor was the sinful man’s request honored for his brothers to be warned. The fact is that he was concerned for their fate and interceeded on their behalf…and he oviously knew their current state of grace and that they were in jeapordy!!!

Now if a sinful person [after death] in a state of torment can show concern for and interceed for a loved one on earth why not a rightious person? Would the dead [from this life but alive in Christ] show less concern for the living . Would they be less aware of their surroundings than a person codemned to the lake of fire?

 

[fellowChristian]

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.”

Blessed art thou among women

Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women…”

Luke 1:48 “For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.”

Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

Luke 1:42b “and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”

Jesus is Mary’s fruit. Good fruit does not come from anything but a good tree (Mt. 7:17-18)! The all-holy Son of God could not be the fruit of any other tree than the Immaculate Virgin.

Holy Mary, Mother of God

Luke 1:43 "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Luke 2:35 “…and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

John 2:5 "His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Mary sees a need and appeals to Her Son to satisfy it. He does. We turn to Mary to ask her to intercede with her Son in our daily spiritual and material needs, but especially at the hour of our death. At that moment our salvation hangs in the balance as the devil makes his final foray to deter us from the path to God (Rev. 2:10). It is not surprising, therefore, that both the Hail Mary and the Our Father conclude with an appeal to be delivered from the evil one.

 

[LSK]

Now I am understanding the Catholic position a little better.
The rosary is your bible. Now I understand. Thanks

On a side note, I never contemplated any mysteries while reciting the rosary. I was never taught to do so. Maybe that is why it never became my bible.

no - Holy Scripture is Holy Scripture - what you refer to, simply, as The Bible. The Rosary is a devotional prayer that uses the Truth of Holy Scripture as a meditation tool.
Catholics who pray the Rosary do so in order to fully contemplate and enter into those Mysteries described in Holy Scripture. While we can never fully understand the Mysteries of Our Faith we know that they are Truth, and therefore worthy of contemplation. The main prayers of the Rosary are lifted directly from Holy Scripture.

 

[LSK]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New International Version)

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

How do you explain this verse from King Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived?

As Catholics, we believe that the Old Testament is fullfilled in the New Testament. When King Solomon, the second wisest man who ever lived, wrote these beautiful verses, the gates of Heaven were closed. Because of the death and resurrection of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the gates of heaven have been opened. Those who have entered fully - FULLY - into eternal life are now priviliged to partake in the beatific vision. They are more fully alive than we are here - and they know all of God’s plan. When they take our petitions to the foot of His throne on our behalf, as revealed to St. John in the Book of Revelations, they do so knowing that it is only His permissable will that we, as creatures, appeal to but not His ordained will. Much of the prayers they say for us is that we become more open to His ordained Will so that our struggles here will lessen. Because He chose to establish a visible Church here on earth, it is obvious that part of His ordained will is that all people come to know and accept Jesus Christ and participate in the Sacraments He established.

 

[heisenburg]

Miss…

I am only just now getting back to my computer, and many replys since my last post… But I want to comment on your response to my post…

Unless my language was unclear, which is possible, I do not see how you can take what I said to mean that th Rosary is the Catholic bible… this was never said or implied. What I did say is that the rosary was used, and can still be used today, as a way to teach the live and times of Jesus… it does not replace the bible, but the message is entirely biblical. When I pray the rosary, I have bible studies… For many prior to the printing press and literacy, this, plus stain glass windows, plus murals on the wall was all people had to teach them the bible… so as I mentioned, it was a way to teach the CORE messages of the bible.

You seem to however also believe that because I am also saying Hail Marys, I am putting Mary before god…

When you do a bible study with friends, are you putting your friends before god? I hope not… Neither do Catholics… We are having a bible study with Mary.

Would you say that it is OK to use bible work books to supplement your studies?
Would you say it is ok to pass out gospel tracts at sporting events?

Are these the bible? no… do they teach aspects in the bible? Yes.

Why then is it that if you can use work books and gospel tracts to improve your love for God, is it that catholics can’t use a much older form of Bible work books and gospel tracts… the rosary…

Also, if the Rosary puts Mary above God, why has my love for God the thing that has increased…

I do not want to immediately assume that you are just trying to twist what I said to make a point, I will assume you just misunderstood what I said… HOWEVER…

If you are twisting what I said, knowing full well what the intent was behind my statement, then perhaps you need to look deep into your self and re-examen your own faith. Perhaps you need to remove the plank from your eye before trying to remove the splinter from mine…

IN Christ