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Cider
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:grouphug:Don’t worry. I’ve already decided to hush. Where is the “sshh” icon?
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newyorkcatholic
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Pope Paul VI said that. Pope Pius XII said something altogether different.
Since both were popes, and both aren’t pope now, it’s not that clear is it.
So we have to learn, from what doctrine is, whether the rosary at Mass is acceptable.
Pius XII, actually discussing the fundamentals of the liturgy, says that it is a valid form of participation in the Mass.
Paul VI, whose authority I don’t question, has his opinion but he does not base it on anything that would nullify what Pius XII wrote, from basic principles.
So I will stick with the rosary at Mass, despite HH Paul VI’s view.
It would not be the only mistake Paul VI made, LOL.
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Padraig1972
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Well, i apologize for being rude. It was i guess a sign of frustration. As of as late as this afternoon, i was thinking about mass and giving things another chance.
So i saw this discussion and thought too loud perhaps about why things has become like they have. Liturgical practices is one of the reasons indeed. Praying the rosary is a fine thing to do and a devotion to many (i used to be one).
But during mass, why? Won`t you miss a lot? I know i would. This and other things connected to it during the liturgy gave me a feeling
I just disagree in so much and it has come to a point of not going back for me, most likely. But it will be my last post in these subforums. Sorry to those being offended.
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newyorkcatholic
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From Pius XII, Mediator Dei:
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Melchior_1
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newyorkcatholic
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Why would you miss anything? Especially at a Low Mass? But even otherwise, contemplation is good. The rosary is contemplative prayer.
Imagine someone wants to close their eyes and remember those who have died, or meditate on the Real Presence. Should they avoid doing this so they don’t miss something?
I think, given your premise, your feelings are understandable. But your premise is wrong. The rosary actually can help, for the right person, focus attention at Mass.
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Rich_C
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Melch, I think that would take another thread. I mean, that would be de-railing.
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Melchior_1
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If the answer received merits another response from myself, I’ll spin it off.
Regarding sections 173/174/175:
173 - “no real opposition between the sacred liturgy and other religious practices, provided they be kept within legitimate bounds and performed for a legitimate purpose”. This is saying that liturgy and devotional practices do not oppose each other on an inherent independent level. He’s basically saying the Rosary/Divine Mercy Chaplet/Chaplet of St. Michael do not inherently oppose Mass.
This isn’t an endorsement to do both at the same time, but rather an endorsement in devotional practices and they do not run counter to the Mass, which at that time was likely the chief devotional practice people used.
174 - He is encouraging using these practices. Note this section doesn’t say during Mass.
175 - The use of these devotional prayers in our daily lives helps broaden our spiritual life, and keeps the Mass from being “ritualistic”.
I’m not seeing any endorsements here on any private devotional practices happening during Mass.
Then again; be kept within legitimate bounds and performed for a legitimate purpose. I can think of a few different devotional practices that can meet this criteria. I’m sure people won’t complain when someone does their LOTH, Divine Mercy, Lectio Devina, and other devotions during Mass.
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TrueLight
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I have to say though, I don’t particularly want to hear a loud whisper behind me, so those who pray the rosary during mass, please keep the volume low.
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Melchior_1
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WHAT DO YOU MEAN?!I have to say though, I don’t particularly want to hear a loud whisper behind me, so those who pray the rosary during mass, please keep the volume low.
Kidding aside, I must admit that I couldn’t do the Rosary during Mass. No way I could actively participate and invest in both as much as I should due to a severe lack of attention span.
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TrueLight
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Rich_C
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I wouldn’t complain, but I see these the same way I see the Rosary.
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GaryTaylor
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Don’t know, I’ve seen various situations with the Rosary. This Mass in basically world-wide every Monday evening.
google.com/url?q=http://www.thesacredheart.com/n3.htm&sa=U&ei=Pt6_T_reNsiH6QGmo7idCg&ved=0CBEQFjAA&sig2=spDY8GcA_vv9V2qSEHjsxg&usg=AFQjCNHxdvMzWgXiCkNYFKAcYrELe7eyCg
I have also seen indiviuals arrive M-F at the morning Mass 15-minutes early to pray the Rosary.
I have seen individuals with Rosarys during Mass, they are silent though. Thats been my experience.
IMO the verbal recitation usually becomes meditative/contemplative in the mysteries at some point also, which in my own experience is no longer verbal recitation. That has been my own experience. Honestly I don’t see this in light of the Mass, though I attended the above Mass for some time. I see it as part of a daily prayer life which has now evolved.
That has been my experience.
google.com/url?q=http://www.thesacredheart.com/n3.htm&sa=U&ei=Pt6_T_reNsiH6QGmo7idCg&ved=0CBEQFjAA&sig2=spDY8GcA_vv9V2qSEHjsxg&usg=AFQjCNHxdvMzWgXiCkNYFKAcYrELe7eyCg
I have also seen indiviuals arrive M-F at the morning Mass 15-minutes early to pray the Rosary.
I have seen individuals with Rosarys during Mass, they are silent though. Thats been my experience.
IMO the verbal recitation usually becomes meditative/contemplative in the mysteries at some point also, which in my own experience is no longer verbal recitation. That has been my own experience. Honestly I don’t see this in light of the Mass, though I attended the above Mass for some time. I see it as part of a daily prayer life which has now evolved.
That has been my experience.
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TimothyH
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I know that those chapel veils you Latin Mass women wear are only a disguise to hide your mind reading headgear so that you can report back to the Secret Society of Prayer eXamen (SSPX) whenever someone is mentally praying the Hail Mary in the vernacular.I have to say though, I don’t particularly want to hear a loud whisper behind me, so those who pray the rosary during mass, please keep the volume low.
I’ve seen you infiltrate my parish. I’ve known it for a while. I’m on to you.
-Tim-
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Rich_C
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I know that those chapel veils you Latin Mass women wear are only a disguise to hide your mind reading headgear so that you can report back to the Secret Society of Prayer eXamen (SSPX) whenever someone is mentally praying the Hail Mary in the vernacular.
I’ve seen you infiltrate my parish. I’ve known it for a while. I’m on to you.
-Tim-
I wondered when you would jump into this thread, Tim as you are Our Lady’s defenders here!
However, I was recently told that it’s more traditional to pray the Rosary in the vernacular and that when trads pray it in Latin nowadays it’s more novel. If that’s true I’ll go back to praying it mostly in the vernac.
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TrueLight
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Caught!I know that those chapel veils you Latin Mass women wear are only a disguise to hide your mind reading headgear so that you can report back to the Secret Society of Prayer eXamen (SSPX) whenever someone is mentally praying the Hail Mary in the vernacular.
I’ve seen you infiltrate my parish. I’ve known it for a while. I’m on to you.
-Tim-
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TrueLight
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For real???!!!
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newyorkcatholic
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If you read Mediator Dei in context, it’s clear that Pius XII says there are many ways to assist at Mass and that praying the rosary is one of them. I can’t find that part right now (at work, don’t have time) but it’s a well-known teaching of the encyclical … perhaps someone else could find it if you are really interested. Or I’ll try later.
Anyway, as to mistakes of Paul VI. His biggest one was thinking that all of the many changes to the liturgy, including a new missal, would not cause massive problems in the Church. The actual evidence shows that either they did cause, or contribute, or at least fail to prevent, a massive crisis.
It was also a mistake to abolish the minor orders and replace them with the instituted lector and acolyte. Nearly every bishop, trad or conservative or liberal, agrees with me implicitly, since almost no one receives these orders except for seminarians and permanent deacon candidates anyway. There are rare exceptions.
There are others, such as his reduction of fasting requirements, which also didn’t help the problem of lack of reverence for the Real Presence.
For me to get into this more would be a real bad derailment of the thread, but if you start a new one, I’ll try to participate.
By the way this all assumes Paul VI’s good faith. There are those who say he was smarter than that, and that these weren’t errors, he actually didn’t care about reverence. I prefer to reject this view and say they were mistakes.
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curlycool89
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Then why do it? Boredom? Fidgety hands?
When exactly are you praying it then? I pray that it’s not during the Canon.
Being at Mass is being there as a community. Mass is not a bunch of people who don’t care about anyone else who happen to be in the same room with a priest up front; it’s not a movie or a theatre production. Mass is our public, communal worship.
CCC 1136: Liturgy is an “action” of the whole Christ
CCC 1140:
It is the whole community, the Body of Christ united with its Head, that celebrates. “Liturgical services are not private functions but are celebrations of the Church which is ‘the sacrament of unity,’ namely, the holy people united and organized under the authority of the bishops. Therefore, liturgical services pertain to the whole Body of the Church. They manifest it, and have effects upon it. But they touch individual members of the Church in different ways, depending on their orders, their role in the liturgical services, and their actual participation in them.” For this reason, “rites which are meant to be celebrated in common, with the faithful present and actively participating, should as far as possible be celebrated in that way rather than by an individual and quasi-privately.”
Mass is 1) Public and 2) Communal (not private). Praying the rosary is the opposite. It is private and individual; it’s doing your own thing.
But that’s just the thing, Mass is not a private affair between a person and God. There are some silent times for reflection and personal prayer, sometimes after the homily and usually after communion, and in those times, usually only a few minutes, I’d have no problem with someone praying a rosary then as a means of reflection.
If someone wishes to have a longer time of deeper reflection, it is laudable to stay after Mass or come before Mass and pray whatever they want for however long they want. During Mass, however, is a time when we worship together as a Church, as the whole Body of Christ.
CCC 1141:
The celebrating assembly [the liturgy] is the community of the baptized who, “by regeneration and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, are consecrated to be a spiritual house and a holy priesthood, that through all the works of Christian men they may offer spiritual sacrifices.” This “common priesthood” is that of Christ the sole priest, in which all his members participate
That is why the new translations says “Pray, brethren, that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God the Almighty Father”.
Not only that, it seems that we’re being introduced to a “hierarchy” of Popes now, with Popes pre-VII coming ahead it seems.
Consequentialism is not a acceptable moral theory in Catholicism.
Consequentialism is a view that the morality, rightness or wrongness, of an action is dependent only on the outcomes of said action. Catholics are Aristotelian in morals have largely been borrowed or based on Virtue Ethics. Actions in accord with virtues are moral actions, and the moral person is one who always acts in accord with these virtues (there’s a slight disagreement because Aristotle believed that the virtuous person had all their passions in accord with virtue, while we would add things like concupiscence, a propensity to sin, and we must overcome that to act virtuously).
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asd72
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I would encourage you to listen to the Church rather than individuals. Some Parishes are less faithful to the Lithurgy than others. Have you read ‘A Biblical walk through the Mass’ by Edward Sri? It really opens up your eyes to what is going on.
It has been stressed to me by my Priest that the Mass is the great prayer of the Church. We are to participate in this communal prayer not private prayers. I only became a Catholic this year, so that is what I was taught.
The Eastern Lithurgy I have heard is very beautiful and helps the senses to appreciate the reality of Heaven on Earth. But you can still be Catholic!
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