Praying the rosary at Mass

[ConstantineTG]

What is the limit of “participating directly,” do you suppose?

What if I prayed each mystery of the Rosary for the intention of the prayer father was making at the altar? Wouldn’t that be participating directly?

I would say NO. I mean, you can do that from home, then why come to Mass at all?

 

[ConstantineTG]

The priest is offering the sacrifice and we are assisting at Mass with our prayers. If we are not paying attention, then that is a problem. If you are praying, you are participating as directly as you can. If you are saying that unless you can hear me praying, I am not participating directly, then I disagree with you.

But there are prayers set for Liturgy which we must also pray. Whether in the Latin Mass where we are not expected to say it out loud, we are to go along with the prayer silently. To be of one mind with the priest, we must be praying what he is praying.

“Liturgy” is derived from a Greek word meaning originally a public duty, a service to the state undertaken by a citizen. In the OT the Jews used the word for the public service in the Temple and was invested with a religious sense as the function of the priests in Jewish worship. Christ is referred to in Hebrews 8 as the “Leitourgos of Holy things”. So the liturgy is in fact HIS public religious work for HIS people, HIS ministry, HIS SACRIFICE.
The “liturgy” then is not something we do, but something Christ does.

It is something we participate in, or join. Unless you’re suggesting we’re nothing but bystanders during Mass.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And actually, praying the rosary during mass could be considered a liturgical abuse because you are adding your own private devotion to the Mass. What’s the difference between praying the rosary and holding your hands in the orans position during the Our Father? Maybe that person is charismatic and they normally pray with their arms extended like that. There’s nothing wrong with using that position for prayer outside of Mass.

But we still say that it shouldn’t be done during Mass because there are rubrics covering not just what the priest does, but also what the laity do.

The rosary is a private devotion, and should be done on private time (as in not during public worship, which is what the Mass is). The Mass is given to us by the Church as is, meaning that neither the priest nor the laity can add or subtract anything from it.

If you’re busy praying the rosary, are you really paying attention to what’s going on? Fully and actively? How can you listen to Jesus as the Word when you’re not paying full attention? Or the homily, as explaining the Word to us? Even the hymns and chants are a part of our public and communal worship. If you’re busy praying the rosary, you mine as well not even be there because you’re separating yourself from the community.

And as noted above, what is the difference of praying the Rosary at home at the same time for the intention of the priest at the altar? So if there is an EF Mass at 9am, I stay home and say “I offer this Rosary for the intention of the priest at so-and-so parish saying the Mass right now.”

There is value in the words of a prayer. Prayers are always two way, it is directed to God, and directed to ourselves. If we don’t pray the prayer, then we lose that part that is directed to us and lose its spiritual benefit.

As an aside, there are no such rubrics for the laity in the traditional mass.

The same with the Orans by the laity. There is nothing that says we cannot do it, and nothing that says we should. So why can one say the Rosary but not do the Orans?

Praying the rosary during mass isn’t adding anything to the mass.

I agree with this, but it also takes you out of the Mass. If physical presence is all that is required for Mass, then I can put my phone on silent and play video games during Mass and get my obligation fulfilled.

You have a defective notion of participation at mass.

I think he’s spot on.

 

[curlycool89]

I think he’s spot on.

I would hope so! I learned that part directly from a priest-canonist who was teaching a class on the Catechism.

He was telling us that in his parish everyone stands and sings (communal worship) during the communion procession (before and after they receive) until the Eucharist is placed back in the tabernacle, and then they have a few minutes of complete silence for people to have personal prayer and reflection. It’s an interesting way of emphasizing that the Mass is our public and communal worship.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I would like to see a Forum Elder’s view on this, and official rules please!:angel1::getholy:

 

[jam070406]

And as noted above, what is the difference of praying the Rosary at home at the same time for the intention of the priest at the altar? So if there is an EF Mass at 9am, I stay home and say “I offer this Rosary for the intention of the priest at so-and-so parish saying the Mass right now.”

There is value in the words of a prayer. Prayers are always two way, it is directed to God, and directed to ourselves. If we don’t pray the prayer, then we lose that part that is directed to us and lose its spiritual benefit.

The same with the Orans by the laity. There is nothing that says we cannot do it, and nothing that says we should. So why can one say the Rosary but not do the Orans?

I agree with this, but it also takes you out of the Mass. If physical presence is all that is required for Mass, then I can put my phone on silent and play video games during Mass and get my obligation fulfilled.

I think he’s spot on.

Your strawmen aside, a simple Google search will show praying the rosary at Mass was traditionally accepted even by Popes and Bishops.

 

[curlycool89]

Your strawmen aside, a simple Google search will show praying the rosary at Mass was traditionally accepted even by Popes and Bishops.

Well, you are also going to find many who supported and endorsed the selling of indulgences too. While there isn’t anything technically wrong with that (since the Church can decide how indulgences are distributed), we’ve pretty much all agreed that in hindsight it was not a very good idea.

So appealing to “some popes and bishops” doesn’t exactly make a good argument.

Maybe popes and bishops did think it was a good idea at a time when the laity (largely illiterate besides noblemen, and most possessing no knowledge of Latin beyond “et cum spiritu tuo”, which is why the priest would say “Amen” for them during communion because they would’t know what they were responding to) didn’t really understand the liturgy beyond the fact that they needed to be there every Sunday and that they should live according to the Gospels. They didn’t understand what was going on and they didn’t need to understand what was going on (and if you needed their attention for something, a bell usually worked. Hence the bells for the consecration and elevations) because they weren’t the priest.

And up until the modern seminary system (especially the influence of Jean-Jacques Olier, the founder of the Society of St-Sulpice) the formation of priests was … spotty at best (Some in largely rural parishes trained like an apprentice under the pastor, while some in cities studied theology with only a little spirituality. You can see why most of our great intellectuals were religious, while our secular saints are more well known for their heroic virtue or pastoral work like St. Jean Vianney).

 

[jam070406]

Well, you are also going to find many who supported and endorsed the selling of indulgences too. While there isn’t anything technically wrong with that (since the Church can decide how indulgences are distributed), we’ve pretty much all agreed that in hindsight it was not a very good idea.

So appealing to “some popes and bishops” doesn’t exactly make a good argument.

Maybe popes and bishops did think it was a good idea at a time when the laity (largely illiterate besides noblemen, and most possessing no knowledge of Latin beyond “et cum spiritu tuo”, which is why the priest would say “Amen” for them during communion because they would’t know what they were responding to) didn’t really understand the liturgy beyond the fact that they needed to be there every Sunday and that they should live according to the Gospels. They didn’t understand what was going on and they didn’t need to understand what was going on (and if you needed their attention for something, a bell usually worked. Hence the bells for the consecration and elevations) because they weren’t the priest.

And up until the modern seminary system (especially the influence of Jean-Jacques Olier, the founder of the Society of St-Sulpice) the formation of priests was … spotty at best (Some in largely rural parishes trained like an apprentice under the pastor, while some in cities studied theology with only a little spirituality. You can see why most of our great intellectuals were religious, while our secular saints are more well known for their heroic virtue or pastoral work like St. Jean Vianney).

So Pope Pius XII’s encylicals are tantamount to the selling of indulgences and the laity were clueless and didn’t understand anything prior to the Novus Ordo. Gotcha.

 

[asd72]

So Pope Pius XII’s encylicals are tantamount to the selling of indulgences and the laity were clueless and didn’t understand anything prior to the Novus Ordo. Gotcha.

I read the allowance of Pope Pius as a concession rather than an ideal, but the Church seems clear now in it’s desire for active participation of the laity in the Lithurgy rather than private devotions at Mass.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Your strawmen aside, a simple Google search will show praying the rosary at Mass was traditionally accepted even by Popes and Bishops.

Interesting, you try to discredit my post by purporting a logical fallacy. Maybe you can point out what is wrong with what I said rather than resorting to ad hominen.

 

[jam070406]

Interesting, you try to discredit my post by purporting a logical fallacy. Maybe you can point out what is wrong with what I said rather than resorting to ad hominen.

I didn’t attack you personally, so there is no ad hominem.
Nobody EVER said physical presence is all that is necessary, which is a giant strawman argument, on your part.

 

[Hesychios]

… a simple Google search will show praying the rosary at Mass was traditionally accepted even by Popes and Bishops.

Which lends support the notion that these men are not impeccable.

 

[Hesychios]

He was telling us that in his parish everyone stands and sings (communal worship) during the communion procession (before and after they receive) until the Eucharist is placed back in the tabernacle, and then they have a few minutes of complete silence for people to have personal prayer and reflection. It’s an interesting way of emphasizing that the Mass is our public and communal worship.

Sounds like a good way of describing it.

 

[jam070406]

Which lends support the notion that these men are not impeccable.

 

[curlycool89]

Well, this is a matter of discipline, not faith and morals.

I didn’t attack you personally, so there is no ad hominem.
Nobody EVER said physical presence is all that is necessary, which is a giant strawman argument, on your part.

Ok, then what if a person is reading their bible on their iPad at Mass? Or reading a paper (or as well like affectionally call them, a dead-tree) Bible? Divine Mercy Chaplet? Various novenas? Just praying internally (silently) the whole time (but focusing on the personal praying)? A little while ago there was a question in L&S about journalling during Mass (journaling is a popular spiritual activity among younger people). What about writing your own reflections of what was read in the readings? Writing mystical poetry? Doing an extensive and comprehensive examination of conscience (not a quick check of a few sins, but an extensive all-encompassing look)?

All of those are religious or spiritual activities. Where does it end? Or are we giving an exception just for the rosary?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I didn’t attack you personally, so there is no ad hominem.
Nobody EVER said physical presence is all that is necessary, which is a giant strawman argument, on your part.

You can discuss the substance of the post rather than just saying “straw man” which is obviously an effort to discredit the person rather than the post.

Anyway, I don’t want to argue about that.

So if you are saying that physical presence is not all that is necessary, then what are those praying the Rosary doing at Mass? They can pray the Rosary at home. The Rosary is not a part of Mass, therefore they are only physically there and not partaking of the Mass.

By the way in major churches in places like the Philippines, its common for people to walk in and say a prayer even when a Mass is ongoing. I do that if the church/chapel is on the way to work or school and I don’t have the time to attend the entire Mass, I’d walk in while Mass is ongoing and say my prayer at the back for 5-10 mins then leave. Did I partake at Mass then?

 

[jam070406]

Well, this is a matter of discipline, not faith and morals.

Ok, then what if a person is reading their bible on their iPad at Mass? Or reading a paper (or as well like affectionally call them, a dead-tree) Bible? Divine Mercy Chaplet? Various novenas? Just praying internally (silently) the whole time (but focusing on the personal praying)? A little while ago there was a question in L&S about journalling during Mass (journaling is a popular spiritual activity among younger people). What about writing your own reflections of what was read in the readings? Writing mystical poetry? Doing an extensive and comprehensive examination of conscience (not a quick check of a few sins, but an extensive all-encompassing look)?

All of those are religious or spiritual activities. Where does it end? Or are we giving an exception just for the rosary?

Don’t know. Just know that praying the rosary, meditating on Christ and joining that prayer to the prayers offered by the Priest at the Holy sacrifice of the Mass in the EF was an acceptable practice. I’m sorry if you can’t deal with that but, it really is your problem.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m sorry if you can’t deal with that but, it really is your problem.

Can’t we have an intelligent discussion here without potshots like this?

 

[jam070406]

You can discuss the substance of the post rather than just saying “straw man” which is obviously an effort to discredit the person rather than the post.

Anyway, I don’t want to argue about that.

So if you are saying that physical presence is not all that is necessary, then what are those praying the Rosary doing at Mass? They can pray the Rosary at home. The Rosary is not a part of Mass, therefore they are only physically there and not partaking of the Mass.

By the way in major churches in places like the Philippines, its common for people to walk in and say a prayer even when a Mass is ongoing. I do that if the church/chapel is on the way to work or school and I don’t have the time to attend the entire Mass, I’d walk in while Mass is ongoing and say my prayer at the back for 5-10 mins then leave. Did I partake at Mass then?

It’s been explained. Go back and read this thread. I can’t help it if the explanations are not good enough for you.

 

[jam070406]

Can’t we have an intelligent discussion here without potshots like this?

Apparently not. Because no explanation will satisfy you. It’s pointless. I’m done…good bye.