Praying to Dead People

[steve_b]

YAQUBOS:

1. I took a look on it. I prefer to discuss it with you.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Okay, here is some of that URL. We can discuss it in sections.

One Mediator

“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are— does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

“No Contact with the dead”

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:10–15).

anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.”

“Directly to Jesus”

If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us either.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

"The prayer of a righteous man has great power… (Jas. 5:16–18). Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth,

In Heaven and On Earth

those in heaven pray with us, and they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8).

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Sarah Jane:

Do you see Jesus walking in your streets?

Jesus is God, and He can hear our prayers. He is everywhere.

But the HUMAN dead people are not everywhere. So we need to see them and meet them to talk to them.
Sarah Jane:

The Old Testament is written in hebrew. The New Testament is written in greek. Find me an example in the New Testament.

Don’t take it personal, but this is hypocrisy. Because the witnessing is the same. But, whatever, read the following:

“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets” ( Romans 3:21 )

Is this better? Can we talk to the Law? Is the Law aware of what you say?
Sarah Jane:

Only God is omniscient. But we know that the saints in heaven and the angels are not subject to the time-space limitations of this life because they are in heaven. The saints in heaven and the angels are aware of what is happening on earth by the will of God.

“When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?’ Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.” (Rev 6:9-11)

How would they be able to say these things if they didn’t know what was happening on earth?

Because they witnessed this when alive!

Don’t you know that Christians are being persecuted in other countries, even if you don’t hear about that in the news? Because the Word says that we will be persecuted, so that is what is happening! And we experience this every day.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Okay, here is some of that URL. We can discuss it in sections.

One Mediator

“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are— does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

I understand the difference between our intercessions and the fact that Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man.

Paul is writing to living Christians. I don’t see in the verses anything about dead people being able to hear us.

“No Contact with the dead”

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:10–15).

anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.”

I don’t see how you can talk to a dead without calling his spirit. The dead people are not everywhere. Being everywhere is an Attribute of God.

To be continued, if the Lord permits.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

Continuing…

“Directly to Jesus”

If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us either.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

All scriptural passages quoted here talk about living Christians praying for each other.

I did never argue about going directly to Jesus to deny praying to the dead. When I ask a friend to pray for me I don’t pray to him! I can just talk to him or send him a letter or call him! But the problem in talking to the dead is that you need to pray to them, and that’s worship. You also need to call their spirit, because they are not everywhere. In fact, praying means the person to whom we are talking in prayer is EVERYWHERE, and able to hear us.

"The prayer of a righteous man has great power… (Jas. 5:16–18). Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb.

12:22-23), than anyone on earth,

So what?
steve b:

In Heaven and On Earth

those in heaven pray with us, and they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8).

The prayers presented in Heaven and described here SYMBOLICALLY, are prayers addressed TO GOD, and not to saints. This is clear if you see where the prayers are taken from! FROM THE ALTAR in HEAVEN! So these prayers are addressed to God. Example: “Abba, Father, help us in our temptations”, and not “blessed saint… etc”.

In Love,

Yaqubos†

 

[Sarah_Jane]

Don’t take it personal, but this is hypocrisy. Because the witnessing is the same. But, whatever, read the following:

“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets” ( Romans 3:21 )

Is this better? Can we talk to the Law? Is the Law aware of what you say?

The “prophet” of the Law, Moses, can pray God for us and is aware of what I say by the will of God. “What is impossible with men is possible with God.”

The prayers presented in Heaven and described here SYMBOLICALLY, are prayers addressed TO GOD, and not to saints. This is clear if you see where the prayers are taken from! FROM THE ALTAR in HEAVEN! So these prayers are addressed to God. Example: “Abba, Father, help us in our temptations”, and not “blessed saint… etc”.

We ask the saints in heaven to pray God for us. We pray God with the saints in heaven. The saints in heaven pray God for us and with us.

 

[steve_b]

YAQUBOS:

Peace!

Continuing…

All scriptural passages quoted here talk about living Christians praying for each other.

Who says the saints in heaven aren’t living? It’s you who say they are dead. Can the dead talk? Nope! Can the dead feel? Nope! I quoted passages that show the saints in heaven, communicate, and they are aware of feelings in heaven. In fact, they are more alive than you and I are right now.

YAQUBOS:

When I ask a friend to pray for me I don’t pray to him!

The definition of pray is ***to ask. To ask is to pray. ***

---

From Webster’s dictionary.
Main Entry: pray [m-w.com/images/audio.gif](javascriptopWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?pray0001.wav=pray’))
Pronunciation: 'prA
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French *preier, *from Latin *precari, *from *prec-, prex *request, prayer; akin to Old High German *frAgEn *to ask, Sanskrit *prcchati *he asks
transitive senses
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE – often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive senses
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

---

YAQUBOS:

I can just talk to him or send him a letter or call him! But the problem in talking to the dead is that you need to*** pray to them, and that’s worship.*** You also need to call their spirit, because they are not everywhere. In fact, praying means the person to whom we are talking in prayer is EVERYWHERE, and able to hear us.

1. In your vocabulary as a Protestant, pray is always equated as worship. Not for Catholics. And as you can see from the above definition for pray, worship is not mentioned.
2. Saints are alive with God, they aren’t dead.
3. By your characterizations, you don’t understand life in eternity.

YAQUBOS:

The prayers presented in Heaven and described here SYMBOLICALLY, are prayers addressed TO GOD, and not to saints. This is clear if you see where the prayers are taken from! FROM THE ALTAR in HEAVEN! So these prayers are addressed to God. Example: “Abba, Father, help us in our temptations”, and not “blessed saint… etc”.

1. technically, scripture doesn’t say how those prayers were addressed or how they were phrased.
2. The fact that prayers are brought to God, in heaven, by the saints, shows intercession.

 

[rschermer2]

SPOKENWORD:

How do you reconcile the Bible verses, which says:
#1.) The dead know not anything, (ecclesiates 9:5,6) ?

#2.) Dead praise not…the Lord", (Psalms 115:17) ?

#3.) Thoughts perish at death, (Psalms 146:4) ?

#4.) Dead knows not what happens, (Job 14:21,21) ?

Gods Word is Truth,

How sad that you forgot that Jesus came to save us from all the death that these OLD TESTAMENT verses speak of.

Of course all that what you wrote was true but you seem to forget the GOOD NEWS, that death no longer has power over us.

AMEN and God Bless,
RS

 

[rschermer2]

rod of iron:

Most Catholic I know do not read the Bible. If they do, they sure are not as dedicated in reading it as are other denominations, such as those that are Evengelical.

Most Catholics I know do read the Bible, and I’m sure I know more Catholics than you being as I was born and raised Catholic

RS

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

I did never believe that dead saints are dead for God. God is not the God of dead! But I am sure that those saints are dead for us, because I don’t see them walking in the street… Death in flesh is a REALITY, and this death separates us from the saints who leave us. So how can we communicate with them after they are dead?

However, Enoch and Elijah were assumed into Heaven, they did not die. Elijah was present at the Transfiguration.

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

I did never believe that dead saints are dead for God. God is not the God of dead! But I am sure that those saints are dead for us, because I don’t see them walking in the street… Death in flesh is a REALITY, and this death separates us from the saints who leave us. So how can we communicate with them after they are dead?

Pax Vobiscvm

However, Enoch and Elijah were assumed into Heaven, they never died. Elijah was present at the Transfiguration.

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

I did never argue about going directly to Jesus to deny praying to the dead. When I ask a friend to pray for me I don’t pray to him! I can just talk to him or send him a letter or call him! But the problem in talking to the dead is that you need to pray to them, and that’s worship. You also need to call their spirit, because they are not everywhere. In fact, praying means the person to whom we are talking in prayer is EVERYWHERE, and able to hear us.

Pax Vobiscvm

Wherefore I pray thee?

 

[rschermer2]

NewChristian27:

Don’t you mean “pardon me for thinking the Lord’s authority is better than yours”???

I understood this to mean that his authority is in fact the Lord.

RS

 

[Exporter]

Pugatory is a Latin word. Originally the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, so you wouldn’t expect “purgatory” to be there.

But there are many Biblical references to purgatory, here are some.
The word “Purgatory” is not mentioned in the bible but the word “Trinity” is not mentioned in the bible either yet protestants and catholics alike believe in it. It is not important that the word “Purgatory” be mentioned in the bible.

Matt 5:25-26 says, " Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into PRISON.5:26. Amen I say to thee, THOU SHALT NO GO OUT FROM THENCE TILL THOU REPAY THE LAST FARTHING." Notice: This is part of the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus is telling the disciples first about the quality of souls of the just (the Beatitudes) and then goes on to describe the souls of the lost (v21-22)but then he speaks about the souls in “Prison”. In context, He cannot be speaking about a physical prison where inmates stay, rather, it is Purgatory. Here’s why: The Greek word here for “Prison” is “Phulake” or “Phulaken” (Strong’s #5438).Notice too that the next verse says, “…THOU SHALT NO GO OUT FROM THENCE TILL THOU REPAY THE LAST FARTHING.” So here you see the souls do eventually get out. Ok, now, go to 1 Pet 3:18-19 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh,
but enlivened in the spirit,In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in PRISON:” This “Prison” is the same as the one in Matt 5 because the same Greek word “Phulaken” is used. Notice: Verse 18 speaks about Christ dead and then what? He goes and speaks to the souls in “Prison”! Catholic teaching doesn’t include where Purgatory exists only that it does exist. Most verses tend to show it in the upper parts of Hell. Some think it is like an ante-chamber of heaven. It’s OK either way. St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Robert Bellarmine are two who believed it is in hell. This isn’t strange because we believe the Limbo of the Fathers (The Bosom of Abraham) was in hell (see Luke 16:22). When Jesus descended into hell, he took those souls (like Abraham,Moses, etc)out of the Bosom of Abraham and into heaven because this was when Christ opened the gates of heaven.

1 Cor 3:11-15 says, " For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus. 3:12. Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 3:13. Every man’s work shall be manifest FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD shall declare it, and the FIRE shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 3:14. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 315. If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHAL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE." Notice: It’s not just the works (gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble) that go through the fire but it says “HE” shall be saved by fire. Why? Because your works are attached to you so when they go through the fire so do you.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Sarah Jane:

The “prophet” of the Law, Moses, can pray God for us and is aware of what I say by the will of God. “What is impossible with men is possible with God.”

We ask the saints in heaven to pray God for us. We pray God with the saints in heaven. The saints in heaven pray God for us and with us.

All this is human philosophy. But no Scripture about this.

In Love,

Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
steve b:

Who says the saints in heaven aren’t living? It’s you who say they are dead. Can the dead talk? Nope! Can the dead feel? Nope! I quoted passages that show the saints in heaven, communicate, and they are aware of feelings in heaven. In fact, they are more alive than you and I are right now.

“Who says the saints in heaven aren’t living?”

Not me.

“It’s you who say they are dead.”

You say it, too, unless you believe they are still living in flesh…

“Can the dead talk”

The dead are not dead FOR GOD, but they are dead FOR US. Thus, we see that no living is being able to hear a dead talking to him, but God hears His saints, living and dead, talking to Him.

To be continued, if the Lord permits.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Continue…

** 2** : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

This is the meaning in which the Bible uses the word prayer. Humans can change the meaning to many wrong things, but the truth is in the Word of God.

For instance, when someone tells you “I adore you”, he may mean “I love you very much”. But in fact adoring means “to worship”. And the dictionary gives you both meanings.

By the way: do you know how a dictionary is prepared? Well, let’s say in brief ( very brief ) that the authors of a dictionary find the texts and contexts in which a word is used, they see how and in what meaning that word is used in those contexts, and then they write for you an explanation about what the word meant in those different contexts. So when they want to explain for you the word “prayer” they take your wrong context of praying to dead also in consideration. That’s why you find that definition in the dictionary. A dictionary is not the Bible. It just gives you what different people talking English ( or Latin, or whatever ) understand by that word.
steve b:

1. In your vocabulary as a Protestant, pray is always equated as worship. Not for Catholics. And as you can see from the above definition for pray, worship is not mentioned.

First, I am not a Protestant, so I can’t answer you about their vocabulary ( if in fact they have any unique vocabulary ).

I use the vocabulary of God. In the word of God, prayer is worship, and it is addressed ALWAYS to a being that people worship.

“They have no knowledge, Who carry about their wooden idol And pray to a god who cannot save.” ( Isaiah 45:20 )

So prayer is addressed to a god. But the right prayer must be addressed to that God who CAN SAVE!

And, by the way, you add:

And as you can see from the above definition for pray, worship is not mentioned

Well, I read in the above definition ( which is not from the Bible ): "2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving ".

To be continued, if the Lord permits.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Continue…
steve b:

1. Saints are alive with God, they aren’t dead.

Alive for God and not for us who are in flesh.
steve b:

1. By your characterizations, you don’t understand life in eternity.

What do you mean by “in eternity”? What is the opposite of “in eternity”? Are we now living in eternity?
steve b:

1. technically, scripture doesn’t say how those prayers were addressed or how they were phrased.

In fact, the Scripture says that those prayers are FROM THE ALTAR.
steve b:

1. The fact that prayers are brought to God, in heaven, by the saints, shows intercession.

The fact that you think there are just 24 saints in heaven shows that you don’t know how many saints there are in Heaven, or maybe you don’t know what those 24 symbolize.

In addition: it seems that you think only ELDERS are saints. Do you just pray to elders who are dead?

In Love,

Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

However, Enoch and Elijah were assumed into Heaven, they never died. Elijah was present at the Transfiguration.

“assumed into Heaven”. They are NO MORE on earth.

In Love,

Yaqubos†

 

[MariaG]

posted byYAQUBOS,
I don’t see how you can talk to a dead without calling his spirit. The dead people are not everywhere. Being everywhere is an Attribute of God.

Maybe I am mistaken, but do you think Catholic Christians have conversations, as in I say Mary pray for me and Mary answers me in a verbal voice and we converse like you and I would? You keep saying conversations in a way that makes me ask.

That is not what happens. We ask those who are living with Christ to pray for us. Through Christ, they are allowed to hear us, and then they add their prayers to God along with ours.

Catholic Christians do not get out a Ouija board and call up spirits to talk to them.

Catholic Christians** trust in God** to allow those who are alive in Christ to hear us. There is no “proof” we get that they hear us, except maybe through the answered prayers from God. We trust that it is possible through God and His infinite Mercy.

I have to say the constant view and words of “taliking to dead people” is rather sad. Scripture has been presented showing that Christ is the God of the living not the dead. Your constant reference to “dead people” must be a product of your unbelief. I wish you would stop placing your lack of belief in Scripture and lack of belief in what God is capable of doing upon Catholic Christians who 100% believe that God is the God of the living and through Him, all things are possible.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Catholic Christians do not get out a Ouija board and call up spirits to talk to them. I had to laugh when I read this[not laughing at you] I was surprised to hear that my own two catholic christian children played with ouija boards as teenagers. Of course they have now renounced thier actions.