Praying to Dead People

[SPOKENWORD]

jc_escobar:

Spoken word,

You have just mentioned exactly what catholics believe. If the saint are living christians on earth, who are the 24 elders if not saint who have already gone to Heaven? and What business do they have bringing OUR preyers to God? It is clear that those 24 elders are saints that somehow have the prayers of the sints on earth (our prayers) and are bringing them to God. How can they do that? if, as you protestants assert, they can’t hear our prayers? Why is that picture shown in scripture if, as you assert, God is so jealous that he doesn’t allow us to ask the saints (24 elders) to bring our prayers to God?

It is all clear there in Revelation, if you can’t see it it’s because you don’t want. You just said it the 24 elders are bringing our prayers to God. That menas that we can ask them to do so and they will bring them to Him and what is more He will accept them as propper prayers.

You see, we, here on earth are constatly disturbed by the devil, the world and the flesh. That can upset our mind and we are prone to pray for in a way that is not pleasing to God. In other words, our prayers are imperfect. On the other hand the saints in Heaven “Know comlitely, even as they are known” and can understand our prayes and present them to God in a way pleasing to him (Incese representing an aroma pleasing to God). That is why catholics ASK the saints to pray FOR us. In the same way as you ask your brithers on earth to pray for you, except saints in Heaven know much better how to pray for us. That is also why miracles occur easyer through prayers from the saints for us.

I hope you see more clearly the meaning of what you said.

Blessings,
J.C.

I honestly do not know who the 24 elders are in the kingdom. Maybe they were 2 leaders from the 12 tribes. Any ways ,the point is that prayers are collected in the kingdom from earthly saints that reach the heavens. I believe then God puts angels to work in the kingdom collecting these prayers. This is an assumption by me.

 

[jc_escobar]

SPOKENWORD:

I honestly do not know who the 24 elders are in the kingdom. Maybe they were 2 leaders from the 12 tribes. Any ways ,the point is that prayers are collected in the kingdom from earthly saints that reach the heavens. I believe then God puts angels to work in the kingdom collecting these prayers. This is an assumption by me.

If they are not agels, the have to be people who were once on earth and are now in Heaven (catholic definition for Saints). The point is they are taking our prayers to God, therefore the Saints take our prayers to God and it’s ok to ask them to pray for us and/or take our prayers to Him.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

jc_escobar:

If they are not agels, the have to be people who were once on earth and are now in Heaven (catholic definition for Saints). The point is they are taking our prayers to God, therefore the Saints take our prayers to God and it’s ok to ask them to pray for us and/or take our prayers to Him.

My question is that there are thousands and thousands of angels in Gods Kingdom. Why do think only 24 Elders were used ? Are you sure these elders were saints? We might have to wait till we get there to find out. The Elders did not know who the 144,000 were. How is it the Elders didnt recognize the 144,000 saints?

 

[larryo]

SteveG:

As for being certain, that would be difficult. It’s a matter of faith based on our understanding, but you’d be hard pressed to ‘prove it’ in any sense that would satisfy a Protestant. But then again, you can’t prove God to an atheist in that sense either. You can give evidence and explain your reasons, but that’s it.

The thing that finally explained this for me was the understanding that all believers in Christ are part of the body of Christ. If a person was part of the body of Christ before death, why would we think they would cease to be so after death. Quite the contrary, being in heaven, they would still be part of the body, and in even greater union. Why would we think that those members of Christ’s body are not concerned with the other members still living. Are not the believer is Christ one body whether dead or living? And after all they aren’t really dead, are they? They are alive in Christ. God is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.

Excellent reply! The saints in heaven are more alive than any of us on earth can ever hope to be. They are in heaven because of their faith and their love of God and neighbor. In the presence of God, why would perfected human beings not be concerned about the spiritual welfare of those of us still here on earth? Why do many Protestants have such a cramped view of God’s generosity to those who are faithful and obedient? God wishes to make us partakers of and participants in His Divine Glory, especially in His heavenly kingdom. “Eye has not seen…ear has not heard…”

 

[DennisS]

larryo:

Excellent reply! The saints in heaven are more alive than any of us on earth can ever hope to be.

So, none “of us on earth can ever hope to be” as “the saints in heaven”? Surely you don’t suggest that all the saints there will ever be are already in Heaven? We have no hope?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

larryo:

Excellent reply! The saints in heaven are more alive than any of us on earth can ever hope to be. They are in heaven because of their faith and their love of God and neighbor. In the presence of God, why would perfected human beings not be concerned about the spiritual welfare of those of us still here on earth? Why do many Protestants have such a cramped view of God’s generosity to those who are faithful and obedient? God wishes to make us partakers of and participants in His Divine Glory, especially in His heavenly kingdom. “Eye has not seen…ear has not heard…”

They are in heaven because God has called them home and because of their gift of salvation.

 

[DennisS]

jimmy:

You are very wrong about this. The people are not the pillar and ground of truth. If that was true then any interpretation of God would be correct. That is not true. God is absolute truth and we must conform to him. It is the church as in a heirarchy. It was the leaders of the church that new what they were talking about. The people gathered had no authority to teach therefore it can not be the individual people that were the truth.

Jimmy - Thanks. I did misspeak to a certain extent. Let me say it this way: If God is in the ecclesia (the people who make of the church), then Truth is present. This does not mean that the ecclesia is perfect. Authority to teach the Word comes from God, and is confirmed by the ecclesia. As humans, we are likely to be in error from time to time, to read our own biases into things. This is also true for any earthly hierarchy of the ecclesia.

 

[ncgolf]

Remember the Church is made up of three areas. Church Triumphant (those in heaven), Church Suffering (those in Purgatory) and the Church Militant (us on earth).

I never really considered the Saints to be dead people. Many of the posters have said they are alive … yes spiritually alive though the body and the soul are not connected anymore. From what I understand there is a relationship between all three parts of the church … you cannot explain death without the context of the three parts of the church. Our prayers, penances, etc help our brothers in Purgatory (those there cannot help themselves anymore, they depend on us).

 

[jimmy]

DennisS:

Jimmy - Thanks. I did misspeak to a certain extent. Let me say it this way: If God is in the ecclesia (the people who make of the church), then Truth is present. This does not mean that the ecclesia is perfect. Authority to teach the Word comes from God, and is confirmed by the ecclesia. As humans, we are likely to be in error from time to time, to read our own biases into things. This is also true for any earthly hierarchy of the ecclesia.

I agree with this post except for the last line where you say that all ecclesial heirarchies are in error. I have to bring up a quote from Jesus.
“18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matt 16;18

If the church is in error the gates of hell have all ready prevailed. Jesus promised a church that would preserve his truth and the catholic church offers that.

 

[PaulDupre]

rod of iron:

Paul,

Where is the office of elder found in the Roman Catholic church?

The word that Protestants (and hence Mormons) translate as “Elder” is the Greek noun “Presbyteros”, which means “Priest”. It was always translated as “Priest” until the Protestant “reformation”. Because Protestantism denies the sacrificial nature of the Christian priesthood, they chose to translate “Presbyteros” as “Elder” rather than “Priest”.
There are only three offices attributed to the priesthood in the New Testament: Bishop, Priest and Deacon. These three have always existed in the Catholic Church.
Grace to you,
Paul

 

[flameburns623]

rod of iron:

Where is the concept of purgatory found in the Bible? I have heard that saints do not go to this purgatory. But if saints are not declared as such until years after they have died, wouldn’t it be logical to believe that they go to this purgatory you believe in until some pope decides that they are a saint, and thus promotes them out of purgatory?

Rod: I will allow someone who actually believes in the existence of purgatory to discuss what evidences they feel exist for it. Please allow me to clarify what purgatory IS: it is widely believed to be a part of Heaven–it is simply not that place in Heaven wherein one enters into the fulness of God’s presence. More accurately, purgatory can also be described as a ‘state of existence’ within Heaven, I believe. In purgatory–and we are using human language to describe it–one is being shorn of any earthly or fleshly attachments which still inhere to one’s soul. One is becoming more able to love God as He loves us.

Saints are those who have entered into the fullness of God’s presence, whether the Roman Catholic Church has publicly canonized them or not. Some who die are believed to become saints immediately. Others remain in purgatory for some period. By the way: the precise status of infants is unclear. Limbo is largely rejected as their destination, but ‘limbo’ was said to be a heavenly state as well: a state of ‘natural bliss’. All infants who go to Heaven would mature and learn there in a maner not exactly like but but not entirely not dissimilar to how they would have matured on earth.

One caveat: Heaven is a timeless place. In fact, it is not a ‘place’ at all in the sense that Missouri is a place, or Spain is a place, or the moon or Mars or the Milky Way galaxy are places. Try to hold an extended conversation, however, about Heaven without using temporal language. Or without bogging down in language which is so abstract that most folks can’t figure out what is actually being said.

 

[PaulDupre]

go Leafs go:

I understand that we pray to saints as they are now righteous people and prayers from Righteous people availeth much, however Protestants in general view dead saints as being in Paradise and not concerned with earthly happenings given they no longer have pain, sorrow, etc.

Thanks.

Since the saints in heaven are partakers of the divine nature and heirs with Christ, they have all of the love, feelings and concern for the welfare of their brothers and sisters that Jesus has. Would you say that Jesus is no longer concerned for our welfare nor desires us to be united with Him? Then why think that the saints have lost their filial love for us? If anything, that love would become more complete and all-encompassing.
Paul

 

[steve_b]

dfhauer:

I guess for me the question has always been one of what is real and what is perceived as real.

I think that very few, if any, Christians would have a problem asking other Christians to pray for them if they are in trouble or having difficulty. The question is, then, what is the nature of prayer? If it is simply physical words, then the idea of someone who is dead praying for us is ludicrous. If it is, as most Christian churches teach, spiritual communion with God, then the question is whether the spirits of those who have attained paradise remain interested in those on earth and will ask God to work in the lives of those who remain?

I think it likely, from what I know of myself, that once in heaven a soul would still retain interest in the worldly affairs of those left here. We are earthly by God’s design and naturally have some affinity and interest in what goes on here.*** ***I don’t think that goes away when we die.

So, if prayer is spiritual communion with God, why wouldn’t we ask the saints in heaven, who have, literally, an eternity to pray to God for us with no other cares to bind them, to pray for our needs to God?

So, we go to God in prayer for our needs but then we ask the saints on earth and the saints in heaven to also pray for our needs.

---

Does that make any sense?

It makes perfect sense. In fact scripturally we see the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man is in a place of torment, while Lazarus is with Abraham in paradise. The 3 people have left this existence behind, yet the rich man, even though he is told by Abraham that where he is, neither Abraham nor Lazarus can assist him, The the rich man still asks intercession from Abraham and Lazarus for his father and brothers he left behind in this existence. This shows the soul in the next life, retains it’s 3 powers, of memory, intellect and will. The soul is completely aware of it’s conditions, and it feels pleasure or pain, happiness or sadness, whichever state it is in after judgement. And it sees the condition of other souls. [Lk 16:19-31]

In Revelations, we see the saints bringing bowls [filled with the prayers of those on earth] to the throne of God.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

I have a question:

How can you talk to dead saints? I mean, how can you communicate with them?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Sarah_Jane]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

I have a question:

How can you talk to dead saints? I mean, how can you communicate with them?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Because we are the Body of Christ.

 

[MariaG]

How can you talk to dead saints? I mean, how can you communicate with them?

:bible1: Mk 12:26-27 " But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."

Those are words from Jesus’ mouth. Do you still believe the Saints in heaven are dead? Scripture tells us they are living not dead.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[steve_b]

:bible1: Mk 12:26-27 " But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."

Those are words from Jesus’ mouth. Do you still believe the Saints in heaven are dead? Scripture tells us they are living not dead.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

:yup: Exactly!!! One could say it is US who haven’t achieved the fullness of life yet. While the saints in heaven have.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

:bible1: Mk 12:26-27 " But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."

Those are words from Jesus’ mouth. Do you still believe the Saints in heaven are dead? Scripture tells us they are living not dead.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

I did never believe that dead saints are dead for God. God is not the God of dead! But I am sure that those saints are dead for us, because I don’t see them walking in the street… Death in flesh is a REALITY, and this death separates us from the saints who leave us. So how can we communicate with them after they are dead?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Paul_Pignal]

Just a few passages for your concideration:
Rev.5:1-8 The Prayers of the saints are before our God always
Rom.8:35-39 Nothing can seperate us from Christ not even death.
Matt.22:32; He is the God of the living and the dead, when we die in Christ we are more alive than ever before.
There are many more examples but sufice it to say that those who have gone before in Christ us are still very much alive and can intercede (pray) for us in Heaven.They are our family and we should be no more afraid of asking them to pray for us than of asking our Pastor or freinds here on earth to pray for us.One more thing we always pray through the Saints not to them they intercede on our behalf but the glory is always God’s.
Peace
Paul

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Paul Pignal:

Just a few passages for your concideration:

Rev.5:1-8 The Prayers of the saints are before our God always
Rom.8:35-39 Nothing can seperate us from Christ not even death.
Matt.22:32; He is the God of the living and the dead, when we die in Christ we are more alive than ever before.
There are many more examples but sufice it to say that those who have gone before in Christ us are still very much alive and can intercede (pray) for us in Heaven.They are our family and we should be no more afraid of asking them to pray for us than of asking our Pastor or freinds here on earth to pray for us.One more thing we always pray through the Saints not to them they intercede on our behalf but the glory is always God’s.
Peace
Paul

The question remains:

How can you get in communication with them to ask them? You send them an E-mail?

Even living saints cannot hear our prayers when they are in a place where they cannot hear our voice. So we need to call them on the phone or send them an E-mail or a mail or whatever…

In Love,
Yaqubos†