Praying to Dead People

[MariaG]

I never said little saint and big saint. I said little s as in not capital. In this way Catholics dinstinguish between saint as in believer and Saint as in someone we believe is an awesome warrior of God. I also said this has evolved over time as a way to distinguish. I would never presume to put myself on the same level as Saint Paul who until death stayed firmly rooted in Christ. This is why Catholics distinguish saint, and Saint. Saint is reserved for those who persevered until the end. The rest of us are simply saints. It is a custom. The original thought appeared to say Catholics do not believe that Christ’s followers are saints. That is not true. Please try to actually read my posts instead of twisting and saying things that are not there.

 

[whit]

go Leafs go:

I am commonly told that praying to anyone other than God is putting them on the level of a Diety. I understand that protestants generally view “praying” as worship, which is part of the problem.

I don’t understand why they think Saints who have gone before us cannot hear our prayers? How can we be certain that they do?

I understand that we pray to saints as they are now righteous people and prayers from Righteous people availeth much, however Protestants in general view dead saints as being in Paradise and not concerned with earthly happenings given they no longer have pain, sorrow, etc.

Thanks.

Well, this is just one more thing they are wrong about. What else is new? I quit counting.

As to their believing that “prayer” is worship, it is the only thing they have when they get togerhre, so they call it worship when in effect and actuality all they are doing is talking to God personally or through Jesus. They and we, can and, do, all do that at home.

And that is fine but as a friend of mine who was a Baptist minister converting to Catholicism asked other Baptists and others he knew, “Where is the worship in your service?” He got a lot of “I know what you mean, we don’t really have any.” This friend’s’constant refrain was I don’t know how any honest person can read from the last half of John 6 through the end of the gospel and not believe in the Eucharist and also look at Corinthians where Paul tells the congregants not to take the Eucharist unworthily, that is, in sin. I wish I knew what they thought Paul meant by this passage in Corinthians because they don’t believe in the Eucharist and HIS Real Presence in it.

Anyway my friend finally crossed the Tiber at the age of 56 and a week later had a stroke and died.

As to why they don’t believe that the Saints can’t, don’t or won’t hear our prayers, who knows?

God bless and you just keep praying to all the dead folks that you know and want to pray to and don’t worry about your Protestant friends. Just pray they’ll see the light some day.

Here is a prayer for you to say in front of them…

*** Dear Mary, Queen of Heaven and Mother of God and the Communion of Saints, please pray to Our Lord Jesus Christ to intercede with His Father, Our God in my and mine’s behalf, to please allow us on the occasion of our deaths, to go immediately to purgatory if that be your will.

---

What do you think. Will that work?

God bless.
Whit

 

[Kathy_Perry]

Curious:

Righto MariaG!

And Jimmy those were good verses, but keep in mind that in Protestant circles, we believe saints are not necessarily only in heaven or certain people that have been declared saints by anyone. We believe saints are all believers…both in heaven and earth.

Holy people still living are saintly, those in Heaven are SAINTS.

 

[Kathy_Perry]

rod of iron:

I disagree. There is no flesh in heaven. Jesus has is immortal body. The fleshly body is a corruptible body which will die. Neither Jesus, not Enoch, nor Elijah, nor anyone else who has been taken into heaven has a body of flesh and blood any longer. Their bodies are not incorruptible and can no longer die.
There is no evidence in the Bible that Mary was taken into heaven or that she was resurrected.

If the bread and wine becomes the literal body and blood of Christ, then you are obviously guilty of cannibalism. If you eat any human body or blood, you are a cannibal./QUOTE

RoI,
The body we have now is the same body we will have in heaven only made perfect, immortal. Jesus Himself changed bread and wine into His own Body and Blood and gave it to His apostoles to eat and drink, are you going to say He assisted in cannibalism?
As for Mary, she was concieved free of sin, (Hail, Full of Grace), the same as Adam and Eve were created free of sin, she was taken to Heaven (the same way they would have been taken had they not sinned), body and soul.

 

[Kathy_Perry]

rod of iron:

Dismas? Strange. That name is not found in the Bible. Obviously something that the Catholic church made up. Good thief? That is a contradiction in terms. A thief steals. That is not good. Stealing is condemned in the 10 commandments. When Jesus said to the one thief on the cross that he would be with Jesus in paradise, this does not mean the thief became a saint. Otherwise, Jesus would have told him that he would now be a saint.

And what would that process be?

But these historians can only give their opinions of what happened, because they were not there when these events happened. Could you name a few of these unbiased historians?

Ah! So, I am a bigot, huh? Your unrighteous judgment of me does nothing to prove your point.

That’s what all you Catholics keep telling me, but the problem is, none of you can prove it.

The Catholic bishops? The Bible mentions nothing about “Catholic bishops”. In fact, the Bible only mentions the word “bishop” a total of 4 times. It is never used by Jesus. Now, if Jesus never instituted bishops, why would I expect to find them in His church? It has already been claimed on this forum that bishops and apostles are one and the same. But “bishop” is derived from a different Greek word than “apostle”. The two Greek words do not mean the same thing. If the apostles were replaced by bishops, it would appear that the apostasy had already begun.

Which Early Church Fathers? If these church fathers are not mentioned in the Bible, why would I trust them?

As skeptical as you are, I am surprised you trust the Bible.

 

[DennisS]

“As skeptical as you are, I am surprised you trust the Bible.” - Being skeptical is healthy - until we reach a place where everyone is fully trustworthy and knowledgeable.

Kathy says, “The body we have now is the same body we will have in heaven only made perfect, immortal. Jesus Himself changed bread and wine into His own Body and Blood and gave it to His apostoles to eat and drink, are you going to say He assisted in cannibalism?
As for Mary, she was concieved free of sin, (Hail, Full of Grace), the same as Adam and Eve were created free of sin, she was taken to Heaven (the same way they would have been taken had they not sinned), body and soul.”

Kathy - you state these items as fact, yet you do not support your arguments. Did you forget which forum you are on? This is called “Non-Catholic Religions.” Protestants require biblical basis to overcome skepticism.

The items you stated as fact are debated even among Catholic theologians. Mary was conceived free of sin? Where is this found? It was not dogma of the Church until 1854, well after Protestant churches had split from the Church. Thomas Aquinas and Bernard of Clairvaux opposed the doctrine of the immaculate conception. It was the church in England that started recognizing the immaculate conception in the 8th century. It wasn’t until 1685 that MOST Catholics accepted the notion - yet realize that the Catholic Church had done much since the Reformation to make itself more distinct (with Protestants questioning every pronouncement of doctrine). And you expect Protestants to just accept this as fact?

“Holy people still living are saintly, those in Heaven are SAINTS.” - Did you not understand the differences posted? Protestants believe the Communion of Saints includes people who have lived in the past, present, and future on this earthly plain. Stating something as fact, without support, does not foster knowledge or understanding.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

MariaG:

I never said little saint and big saint. I said little s as in not capital. In this way Catholics dinstinguish between saint as in believer and Saint as in someone we believe is an awesome warrior of God. I also said this has evolved over time as a way to distinguish. I would never presume to put myself on the same level as Saint Paul who until death stayed firmly rooted in Christ. This is why Catholics distinguish saint, and Saint. Saint is reserved for those who persevered until the end. The rest of us are simply saints. It is a custom. The original thought appeared to say Catholics do not believe that Christ’s followers are saints. That is not true. Please try to actually read my posts instead of twisting and saying things that are not there.

Okay I see . I am a saint while I am walking this earth. I now become a SAINT when I come into the kingdom. Who makes this judgement? Does this judgement not belong to the Almighty. Who is playing God? Give me some scriptual verses to back up this teaching.

 

[DennisS]

MariaG - Hope you don’t mind me putting forth this answer.

SAINT - Saint is a word translated from the same Greek root as the terms: Holy, Consecrate, Sanctify, Devout. Being a saint means belonging to God.

Those who name Jesus as their Lord are called the saints. This is primarily not an ethical expression but a parallel to concepts like “called” (Rom. 1:7; 1Cor. 1:2; 2Cor. 1:1), “elect” (Rom. 8:33; Col. 3:12) and “faithful” (Col 1:2). In the New Testament, being a saint implies a relationship with God which is expressed not primarily through the cultus but through the fact that believers are “led” by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:14).

Spokenword - listen to these words of Scripture: “What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not withhold his own Son, but gave him up for all of us, will he not with him also give us everything else? Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.” (Rom 8:31-33 NRSV) Saints are not “playing God.” Instead, those who name Jesus as their Lord accept the judgment of the Almighty.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

DennisS:

MariaG - Hope you don’t mind me putting forth this answer.

SAINT - Saint is a word translated from the same Greek root as the terms: Holy, Consecrate, Sanctify, Devout. Being a saint means belonging to God.

Those who name Jesus as their Lord are called the saints. This is primarily not an ethical expression but a parallel to concepts like “called” (Rom. 1:7; 1Cor. 1:2; 2Cor. 1:1), “elect” (Rom. 8:33; Col. 3:12) and “faithful” (Col 1:2). In the New Testament, being a saint implies a relationship with God which is expressed not primarily through the cultus but through the fact that believers are “led” by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:14).

Spokenword - listen to these words of Scripture: “What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not withhold his own Son, but gave him up for all of us, will he not with him also give us everything else? Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.” (Rom 8:31-33 NRSV) Saints are not “playing God.” Instead, those who name Jesus as their Lord accept the judgment of the Almighty.

Dennis, You are right ,it is God who justifys. So why does man declare who is a saint and who is not? Is nt this Gods job. As believers we are all saints. In Gods eyes we as believers are all equal.

 

[DennisS]

SPOKENWORD:

Dennis, You are right ,it is God who justifys. So why does man declare who is a saint and who is not? Is nt this Gods job. As believers we are all saints. In Gods eyes we as believers are all equal.

Three statements, and two questions. I agree with your statements. To answer your questions, I note that they are essentially the same question from two perspectives. “So why does man declare who is a saint and who is not?” Indeed. Why would Church heirarchy declare that someone is a saint, and elevate them above others? Your final two statements logically respond that this does not make sense. All believers, all saints (past, present, and future) are equal in God’s eyes. “Isn’t this God’s job?” Yes, God established, through the Word, as described earlier, who is a saint. The question (for each of us) is, Do you have enough faith to live into who God created you to be?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

DennisS:

Three statements, and two questions. I agree with your statements. To answer your questions, I note that they are essentially the same question from two perspectives. “So why does man declare who is a saint and who is not?” Indeed. Why would Church heirarchy declare that someone is a saint, and elevate them above others? Your final two statements logically respond that this does not make sense. All believers, all saints (past, present, and future) are equal in God’s eyes. “Isn’t this God’s job?” Yes, God established, through the Word, as described earlier, who is a saint. The question (for each of us) is, Do you have enough faith to live into who God created you to be?

That is a Question that only we individually can answer. I personally say that I do. I know who I am in Christ. I know that Jesus Christ lives in me and I have the power to overcome evil in Jesus name. I pray that I will continue to do His will in my life.

 

[MariaG]

Catholics believe all believers are saints.

The practice of declaring someone a Saint (notice the capital) is simply a way to point out to people that there are people who are living Godly lives and God’s miracles and power can still be seen among the faithful.

Why can the church do this? Because God gave her that right, to bind and loose (make and change rules) and holds her free from error. Even though you reject the intepretation of the Bible that gives the church that authority, does not mean it is not true. Once again, I put my faith in Christ, the promises in the Bible about His church, and Sacred Tradition (Sacred Tradition=Oral words ie hold fast to traditions whether oral or by letter 2 Thess 2:15).

As far as I am aware, the church makes no judgement on whether a person is NOT a saint when they die.

God Bless
Maria

 

[SPOKENWORD]

MariaG:

Catholics believe all believers are saints.

The practice of declaring someone a Saint (notice the capital) is simply a way to point out to people that there are people who are living Godly lives and God’s miracles and power can still be seen among the faithful.

Why can the church do this? Because God gave her that right, to bind and loose (make and change rules) and holds her free from error. Even though you reject the intepretation of the Bible that gives the church that authority, does not mean it is not true. Once again, I put my faith in Christ, the promises in the Bible about His church, and Sacred Tradition (Sacred Tradition=Oral words ie hold fast to traditions whether oral or by letter 2 Thess 2:15).

As far as I am aware, the church makes no judgement on whether a person is NOT a saint when they die.

God Bless
Maria

. Maria, Is it true big S saints get a free pass going through purgurtory? Ive heard that said,I dont know if it is true. Supposely they have gained all the indulgenced needed to get a free pass.

 

[yochumjy]

SPOKENWORD:

. Maria, Is it true big S saints get a free pass going through purgurtory? Ive heard that said,I dont know if it is true. Supposely they have gained all the indulgenced needed to get a free pass.

SPOKENWORD,

I believe you have it backwards, the Church does not say, person X was a Saint and they get past purgatory. The Church, through diligent exploration of a person’s life and miricles accorded to them (through what can only be God’s blessing) declare that person X is in heaven by God’s choice. The miricles are an indication, I believe, of a person’s closeness to God. We can only assume that the person in heaven is praying for us and God grants that prayer request of person X in a miraculous way.

John

 

[DennisS]

John - That does make logical sense, and that is possibly why there is a specific amount of time between death and declaration of sainthood - so that the person will have already completed their time in purgatory (if they went there originally).

 

[DennisS]

MariaG:

…declaring someone a Saint…Why can the church do this? Because God gave her that right, to bind and loose (make and change rules) and holds her free from error…
Maria

Bind and loose (in my understanding) does not mean that the church can change rules - certainly not the rules put forth in the Word. We may disagree over who has the power to bind and loose. However, I understand “bind and loose” to refer to the unforgiveness or forgiveness of sin. Again, we will probably disagree upon who has the authority to act upon the behalf of God in binding or loosing.

“free from error” I started to laugh, but then I started thinking about how this contributes to the exclusivism of the Roman Catholic Church. Many Catholics will be surprised to see non-Catholics in Heaven.

MariaG:

As far as I am aware, the church makes no judgement on whether a person is NOT a saint when they die.

God Bless
Maria

LOL - God Bless You as well.

 

[MariaG]

Dennis,

Unfortunately, I do not remember where I found the bind and loose thing. I could be wrong . But You could post a question on it and others will give you the correct answer.

Free from error:
1 Tim 3:15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Jn 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;…

There are more but these are two Scripture from which the Church, not the people in the church, but the teaching can be declared free from error. So you see, it is Biblical.

There will be SOME Catholics surprised to see Protestants in heaven, (not me). However, there will ALOT of surprised Prostestants finding themselves going through purgatory to get there .

God Bless

 

[DennisS]

MariaG:

Free from error:
1 Tim 3:15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Jn 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;…

There are more but these are two Scripture from which the Church, not the people in the church, but the teaching can be declared free from error. So you see, it is Biblical.

Actually, I must disagree with you, especially in suggesting that it refers to “the Church” rather than the people. In the New Testament, Ecclesia, translated as “church” always refers to the people that are gathered to form the church. It does not refer to the building, or a hierarchy, for which other Greek words would have been used. Truth resides within the people of God, not the building or a hierarchy. My translation does not read “house of God,” but “household of God.” It is actually referring to the members of the household, that is, the family of God. In the people gathered, the God of Truth dwells. The pillar and foundation refer to that on which everything else rests. Everything rests on the Truth. We need to be careful about thinking of the church in exclusive terms, as in only referring to the Roman Catholic Church as a whole, or First Baptist church of X town. The church is the people gathered in the presence of God.

MariaG:

There will be SOME Catholics surprised to see Protestants in heaven, (not me). However, there will ALOT of surprised Prostestants finding themselves going through purgatory to get there .

LOL - Yep, good one. Thank you for doing a great job of communicating and for having a great attitude.

 

[jimmy]

DennisS:

Actually, I must disagree with you, especially in suggesting that it refers to “the Church” rather than the people. In the New Testament, Ecclesia, translated as “church” always refers to the people that are gathered to form the church. It does not refer to the building, or a hierarchy, for which other Greek words would have been used. Truth resides within the people of God, not the building or a hierarchy. My translation does not read “house of God,” but “household of God.” It is actually referring to the members of the household, that is, the family of God. In the people gathered, the God of Truth dwells. The pillar and foundation refer to that on which everything else rests. Everything rests on the Truth. We need to be careful about thinking of the church in exclusive terms, as in only referring to the Roman Catholic Church as a whole, or First Baptist church of X town. The church is the people gathered in the presence of God.

You are very wrong about this. The people are not the pillar and ground of truth. If that was true then any interpretation of God would be correct. That is not true. God is absolute truth and we must conform to him. It is the church as in a heirarchy. It was the leaders of the church that new what they were talking about. The people gathered had no authority to teach therefore it can not be the individual people that were the truth.

 

[jc_escobar]

SPOKENWORD:

I believe saints was a word used in scripture refering to living christians. In my oppinion I believe the prayers the Elders presented were prayers collected from earthly saints.

Spoken word,

You have just mentioned exactly what catholics believe. If the saints are living christians on earth, who are the 24 elders if not saints who have already gone to Heaven? and What business do they have bringing OUR preyers to God? It is clear that those 24 elders are saints that somehow have the prayers of the saints on earth (our prayers) and are bringing them to God. How can they do that? if, as you protestants assert, they can’t hear our prayers? Why is that picture shown in scripture if, as you assert, God is so jealous that he doesn’t allow us to ask the saints (24 elders) to bring our prayers to God?

It is all clear there in Revelation, if you can’t see it it’s because you don’t want. You just said it the 24 elders are bringing our prayers to God. That menas that we can ask them to do so and they will bring them to Him and what is more He will accept them as propper prayers.

You see, we, here on earth are constatly disturbed by the devil, the world and the flesh. That can upset our mind and we can make mistakes while praying. In other words, our prayers are imperfect. On the other hand the saints in Heaven “Know completely, even as they are known” and can understand our prayes and present them to God in a way pleasing to him (Incese representing an aroma pleasing to God). That is why catholics ASK the saints to pray FOR us. In the same way as you ask your brithers on earth to pray for you, except saints in Heaven know much better how to pray for us. That is also why miracles occur easyer through prayers from the saints for us.

This, for catholics is known as the communion of the saints.

I hope you see more clearly the meaning of what you said.

Blessings,
J.C.