Praying to Dead People

[Maurelian]

rod of iron:

Paul,

Where is the office of elder found in the Roman Catholic church?

That office is found in the priest. The word “priest” is an angilcized form of the Greek word “presbyter,” which translated literally means “elder.”

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

To say the Bible is read in its entirety is not true. Im sorry what I see is only verses. To say every word is quoted from scripture in 3 years of sunday masses I believe is incorrect.

Spokenword,

Having been a Roman Catholic for the past 46 years, having had my ears opened to receive the Good News in the Sacrament of baptism in my infancy, and being a regular weekly participant at the Mass, I have now heard the entire Bible proclaimed 15 1/3 times.

All of the Old Testament, all of the Psalms, All of the Letters, All of the Gospels, all 72 books of the Bible, now just over 15 times.

The Mass is comprised of two parts: the Liturgy of the Word, and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

The readings at the Masses are not chosen randomly by the pastor. Any Catholic Church we attend will be reading from the very same books of the Bible on any given day of the week.

As an ex-Catholic, you have sadly been decieved about the Mass and the Church’s teachings. That is how ignorant Catholics are lured out of the Church ~ with lies about her teachings and practices. You have bought into the lie, and seem to be content to stick with it.

You left a Church you never really took the time to know. Those of us who’ve taken the time to understand Her know that you’re speaking in error.

End of argument. I will not dwell on it any more.

What is even sadder is this: You refuse the Truth. You prefer to persist in your error.

You refuse to accept that the Bible is proclaimed daily and weekly in the Catholic Mass, following a well-planned cycle of readings designed to instruct the faithful from the Bible on a daily and/or weekly basis.

Pax Christi. <><

 

[Maurelian]

SPOKENWORD:

End of argument. I will not dwell on it any more. Sorry,plus we can get back to praying to the dead.

I agree with you on that, but as long as we are off the topic, I thought you might appreciate this link… satucket.com/lectionary/

If you scroll to the bottom under “When will it be read” and click on the first spreadsheet, you’ll find a listing of all the books of the Bible and when they will be read. And you’re right. While the vast majority of the Bible is read over a 3 year period at Sunday mass, it appears that not every single verse, and in fact not every single chapter is included in the lectionary cycle. :tiphat:

 

[1962Missal]

SPOKENWORD:

To say the Bible is read in its entirety is not true. Im sorry what I see is only verses. To say every word is quoted from scripture in 3 years of sunday masses I believe is incorrect. End of argument. I will not dwell on it any more. Sorry,plus we can get back to praying to the dead.

So the following churches use, in essence, the Roman Lectionary and believe that they cover the Bible every two years in the daily readings and every three years in the Sunday readings, but they are wrong and you are right:

The Consultation on Common Texts issued the Common Lectionary in 1983 and the Revised Common Lectionary in 1992. The members of the Consultation on Common Texts are as follows:

The Anglican Church of Canada
The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
The Christian Reformed Church in North America
The Episcopal Church
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
The Free Methodist Church in Canada
The International Commission on English in the Liturgy
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
The Polish National Catholic Church
The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
The Presbyterian Church in Canada
The Reformed Church in America
The Roman Catholic Church in the United States
The Roman Catholic Church in Canada
The Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship
The United Church of Canada
The United Church of Christ
The United Methodist Church

Please remember that obduracy is not a virtue and should not be confused with faithful conviction.

Justin

 

[dfhauer]

rod of iron:

But how would this be the same as praying to a saint? Do you ask your neighbor to pray for you the same way you ask Mary to pray for you? If your neighbor’s name is Sue, would you start your request to them with, “Hail Sue, full of grace, the Lord is with thee”? What I am saying is, do you address other Christians the same way as you do the Saints when you ask them to pray for you?

Why would these saints pray to God if they are in the presence of God? Or am I a mistaken to think that the saints are not in the presence of God? Wouldn’t they be able to converse with God openly if they are in heaven? Also, how can God be all-knowing, yet need the saints to pray to Him so that they can inform Him of your problems and persuade Him on what to do? Why would you need anyone to be a go-between between you and God? Do you believe that you are not important enough for God to listen to you and respond to you without a saint representing you?

“Hail, Full of Grace”… Mary is addressed with those very words by the angel Gabriel. We use the same. For the other saints, as they are holy, I tend to address them as holy, or saint. Since those of us here on earth are being sanctified (hopefully) and are not fully sanctified, the appropriate title is given them for their position here. i.e. a judge is titled “Your Honor”, a priest is known as “Father”, a minister as “Pastor” or other appropriate title. Thus, a saint is addressed as “Saint”…

Now regarding prayer… What is your concept of prayer. Are you not just talking to God or someone else? Is that not what the normal idea of prayer is? In history, if someone asked for a favor they often would say, I pray thee . They are asking for help from the person they are “praying” to. Thus, the term for talking to God by anyone, be they in heaven or on earth, is prayer. Do you think that prayer is something other than engaging in a conversation with God?

God does have no need of the saints to inform Him of our situation. But, where two or more are gathered, God is in their midst. Well, the saints are in constant, full communion with God and are constantly before Him, so why not have them pray so that there are always two or more in His presence petitioning? The saints are not a go-between but are additional petitioners and, since they have attained heaven, they are able to constantly stand before the throne of God, where I am only able to pray when I am not concerned about work, family, daily tasks, etc. I strive to pray always, but I know my life can be hectic, so the saints are there to lift up my needs constantly. They, like the angel in Revelation 5:8 are offering up our prayers to God.

Does that help clarify things at all?

in pacem Christi,
df

 

[SPOKENWORD]

1962Missal:

So the following churches use, in essence, the Roman Lectionary and believe that they cover the Bible every two years in the daily readings and every three years in the Sunday readings, but they are wrong and you are right:

Please remember that obduracy is not a virtue and should not be confused with faithful conviction.

Justin

Our Lord was always right,the difference is He never argued about it.

 

[Kathy_Perry]

rod of iron:

Really? So, the pope is a prophet? If not, there is no way he could know about people after their deaths. It would have to be revealed to him.

I thought that a person can only become a saint when a couple of miracles have occurred when they were being prayed to. If so, it would seem that some time would pass before these alleged miracles could occur.

They are a saint at the moment they enter Heaven at death.(everyone that goes to Heaven is a saint) but the Church studies their lives and after the miracles they are canonized and we know for certain they are on Heaven, and a Saint.

 

[Kathy_Perry]

rod of iron:

Where in the Bible is it written that the Saints or Mary pray with us and for us? This is just wishful thinking. When you pray to a go-between, you are indeed putting that person ahead of God. This doesn’t mean that you believe this person is more powerful than God or that he or she will answer you in place of God. But you are still putting that person ahead of God.

If I ask you to pray for me, does that mean I am putting you before God, of course not, sometimes these things we Catholics are accused of, get down right silly. Why is it so hard to believe us when we try to explain it. If it wasn’t so serious it would even be funny. I get very weary when someone says that Catholics worship Mary or worship statues or pray to Saints instead of God. Believe me none of the above is true, pray for me as I will you.

 

[Kathy_Perry]

mr_bozo:

Oh, and one more thing, “How early is belief in purgatory?” here’s something I borrowed off a Dave Armstrong website:

R.I.P.,( Rest in Peace) has been used for centuries by believers and it is a prayer for the dead, " May they Rest in Peace." If the early Christians, Catholics, were certain that all went straight to Heaven what would be the need of that prayer.

 

[Kathy_Perry]

Winged_Dreamer:

I do not know what religion you ascribe to (if you have a belief system that could fall under an existing religion’s title, some Christians do not, but opt for a sort of individually guided spiritual life, tempered exclusively by personal Bible interpretations), but I would like to understand it further. Perhaps you could answer some questions for us all, in order to better understand your position. We could then seek to explain things from a perspective you’d feel more comfortable considering (if such an accommodation is possible). I don’t know about everyone else, but I am eager to learn about your faith, so I might judiciously hold it up to mine in an attempt to either reaffirm that which I hold true or discover that my thinking (or perhaps an aspect of it) is flawed. I pray you will do the same with mine (Catholicism).

In Christ,

~Bridget~

Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would be with His Church and protect it from error to the end of time. The gates of Hell will NOT prevail against it and I believe Him.

 

[Curious]

Yo!

I kwow you guys have gotten off the subject but I’m going back on it for just a bit.

I always thought Catholics prayed to saints and prayed to Mary and stuff. I thought it was pretty weird too and was sure God was displeased with it. But in my recent studies and conversation with a Catholic pal of mine I think I really understand it.

You won’t find many Protestants that won’t pick up the phone and call their fellow churchmember and say “Pray for me.” I’ve come to realize that that it’s pretty much the same thing. Not praying to the saints like you would pray to God, but asking the saints to pray to God WITH you. I was all excited to learn that. It made a lot of sense to me. Maybe you crazy Catholics aren’t heretics after all! Lol…just kiddin.

Sorry to ramble…that little example just really struck a chord with me. I obviously don’t ask saints to help me pray myself, being a good little Protestant and all…but I’m much more comfortable with the idea now that I understand it.

 

[jimmy]

Curious

That is a good description of the belief but it is mentioned in the bible also.

*“Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” *Rev 5;8

*Another angel came and stood over the altar, having a golden censer. Much incense was given to him, that he should add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. *Rev 8;3

 

[MariaG]

Thanks for sharing Curious!

It is nice to know that the explanation of our Catholic beliefs actually helped someone understand that at least in this one area, you may have misunderstood before now! Sometimes it becomes frustrating to tell people things repeatedly and have them say no, you do this. Glad at least one person now understands how Catholics get the body of Christ to pray WITH us to God without even picking up a phone.

 

[Curious]

Righto MariaG!

And Jimmy those were good verses, but keep in mind that in Protestant circles, we believe saints are not necessarily only in heaven or certain people that have been declared saints by anyone. We believe saints are all believers…both in heaven and earth.

 

[MariaG]

BTW Curious,

Catholic believe the living are saints also, in the meaning of a believer. We just usually don’t refer to ourselves that way because saint has become someone who is an exempleary Christian who preforms miracles of God. If pressed though it is more of saint MariaG (little s believer) and Saint Anthony (big S miracle worker).

God Bless

 

[Curious]

oooooooo…didn’t know that, now did I? Gotcha.

 

[DennisS]

Wow - it sure took a long time to wade through all these posts on 15 different subjects (approximated).

Ears in grave? LOL I’d be very disappointed if those in Heaven could not see or hear. However, the question of who is in Heaven at this moment can be quite a theological question. Do the dead rise when they die, or on THE last day? Those alive in Christ WILL rise. This is a certainty, but the timing is unclear. Discussion of this needs to be on a new topic - okay?

Praying to dead people? LOL Okay, those who have gone before still have an eternity ahead of them. The question of whether or not those who have gone before can receive our prayers, and can, or will, interceed, is obviously open to debate and interpretation. I pray to God, in the name of Jesus, through the power of the Holy Spirit. However, if someone wants to pray to those who have gone before, I certainly will not stop them. One day the truth will be fully known.

 

[DennisS]

“Catholics know how to read their book.” Cool, but make sure it is acted upon, not just read. Okay, that wasn’t the point of the post.

If you rely upon the 3 year lectionary cycle of Sunday readings, regardless the denomination (according to the several listed in that spreadsheet), you will not fully read the Bible. You will read less than 2/3rds of the Old Testament. Some of my favorite stories are left out (Numbers 12, 2Samuel 9, etc).

Obviously, there has been some misinformation posted on this thread. Every book of the Bible is not included in the lectionary cycle. There are at least 3 books (Catholic & Protestant Bibles) not included from the OT, and 3 from the NT. Lots of Psalms are left out, portions of only 6 proverbs are used, only 2 passages in all of Daniel are used, and Ezra, Obadiah, & Nahum are completely left out of all the lectionaries listed (Roman Catholic and several Protestant)

Furthermore, there isn’t a single book of the canon that is fully included. This includes the Gospels. 2 & 3 John, along with Jude are left out. From Rev. 8 - 18, only 1 passage is listed. About 150 verses of Matthew are not included.

Conclusion: Catholics and Protestants should use a Bible reading plan that includes the whole canon, including apocrypha (which Luther called useful, though not on the same level as Scripture). Relying upon the lectionary is insufficient.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

MariaG:

BTW Curious,

Catholic believe the living are saints also, in the meaning of a believer. We just usually don’t refer to ourselves that way because saint has become someone who is an exempleary Christian who preforms miracles of God. If pressed though it is more of saint MariaG (little s believer) and Saint Anthony (big S miracle worker).

God Bless

Maria, Is little saint and big saint scriptual? Saints were refered as all living and believing christians
.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

jimmy:

Curious

That is a good description of the belief but it is mentioned in the bible also.

"Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Rev 5;8

Another angel came and stood over the altar, having a golden censer. Much incense was given to him, that he should add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. Rev 8;3

I believe saints was a word used in scripture refering to living christians. In my oppinion I believe the prayers the Elders presented were prayers collected from earthly saints.