Praying to Dead People

[GoodME]

go Leafs go:

I am commonly told that praying to anyone other than God is putting them on the level of a Diety. I understand that protestants generally view “praying” as worship, which is part of the problem.

I don’t understand why they think Saints who have gone before us cannot hear our prayers? How can we be certain that they do?

I understand that we pray to saints as they are now righteous people and prayers from Righteous people availeth much, however Protestants in general view dead saints as being in Paradise and not concerned with earthly happenings given they no longer have pain, sorrow, etc.

Thanks.

A couple of thoughts here.

• We are not given everlasting EXISTENCE with God, but everlasting LIFE with God.
• LIFE to me denotes action and an affect on the surroundings.
• So if we believe someone is ALIVE in the presence of God, that soul might be in a pretty good position to plead our case, in addition to ourselves and Jesus.
• Another angle is that by praying TO GOD that a Saint pray for us, we are recognizing to God that we recognize the special closeness that this soul has with God, and how closely aligned with God’s will this person’s will must have been. And I would think that God would find that pleasing.

 

[Stylite]

SPOKENWORD:

Stylite. May you be so kind to give me chapter and verse that confirms what you are saying. Thanks

Sure,
Rev 5:8.

 

[Katholikos]

SPOKENWORD:

Jay ,you notice its angels that bring our earthly prayers before the throne,not the saints that present them…

Spokenword,

That’s a private interpretation of Scripture, a 16th century innovation or later. It is not the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles or of the Church that Christ founded for the salvation of the world.

Revelation does not say “. . .the prayers of the saints on earth” – you are reading that into the text.

The Book of Revelation is actually a description of the heavenly liturgy – the Mass – that is constantly going on in the presence of God. Read *The Lamb’s Supper, The Mass as Heaven on Earth *by Scott Hahn, Ph.D.

Praise and exalt Him forever! Jay

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Katholikos:

Spokenword,

That’s a private interpretation of Scripture, a 16th century innovation or later. It is not the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles or of the Church that Christ founded for the salvation of the world.

Revelation does not say “. . .the prayers of the saints on earth” – you are reading that into the text.

The Book of Revelation is actually a description of the heavenly liturgy – the Mass – that is constantly going on in the presence of God. Read *The Lamb’s Supper, The Mass as Heaven on Earth *by Scott Hahn, Ph.D.

Praise and exalt Him forever! Jay

Jay, it says Gods Holy people. You say its the saints in heaven. I say its our prayers whom God calls us His holy people.]

 

[hawkeye]

catholicapologetics.org/ap070000.htm

The Communion of Saints.

 

[Jennifer123]

If we are all alive in Christ here on Earth, and apparently as we all believe, in heaven also, then what is different about asking you here on earth to pray for me or asking a fellow Christian, while dead, to do the same?

I can’t really add much to the scripture that has already been provided, they are good a important references for the communion of saints.

I do want to say though that if those that have passed before us are too “busy” to concern themselves with the doings of us earthlings, then why was Moses, who was quite “dead”, present at the Mount of Transfiguration, was both aware and concerned about things here on Earth?

Moses, like us Christians who die in Christ, is in glory (Luke 9:31) and therefore is a full “participant in the divine nature” (2Pet.1:4), making him more like Christ now than he ever was here on Earth. Wouldn’t that make him more empowered to pray for his brothers and sisters in Christ, struggling here on Earth?

 

[rod_of_iron]

dfhauer:

I think that very few, if any, Christians would have a problem asking other Christians to pray for them if they are in trouble or having difficulty.

But how would this be the same as praying to a saint? Do you ask your neighbor to pray for you the same way you ask Mary to pray for you? If your neighbor’s name is Sue, would you start your request to them with, “Hail Sue, full of grace, the Lord is with thee”? What I am saying is, do you address other Christians the same way as you do the Saints when you ask them to pray for you?

dfhauer:

So, if prayer is spiritual communion with God, why wouldn’t we ask the saints in heaven, who have, literally, an eternity to pray to God for us with no other cares to bind them, to pray for our needs to God?

So, we go to God in prayer for our needs but then we ask the saints on earth and the saints in heaven to also pray for our needs.

Why would these saints pray to God if they are in the presence of God? Or am I a mistaken to think that the saints are not in the presence of God? Wouldn’t they be able to converse with God openly if they are in heaven? Also, how can God be all-knowing, yet need the saints to pray to Him so that they can inform Him of your problems and persuade Him on what to do? Why would you need anyone to be a go-between between you and God? Do you believe that you are not important enough for God to listen to you and respond to you without a saint representing you?

 

[rod_of_iron]

Trinitatem:

I pray to saints for their intercession, as even though they may be in heaven, they’re still working for our salvation. Their prayers never cease in helping us here on earth. In the canonization of a saint, certain miracles must be attributed to the saint. These include answered prayers for those suffering here on earth.

I think we need to pray for the souls in purgatory, as I also believe when they are freed from purgatory, they pray for us.

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ, whether passed on from this life to heaven or not. And all should be concerned with overall salavation: uniting all souls to Christ.

Where is the concept of purgatory found in the Bible? I have heard that saints do not go to this purgatory. But if saints are not declared as such until years after they have died, wouldn’t it be logical to believe that they go to this purgatory you believe in until some pope decides that they are a saint, and thus promotes them out of purgatory?

 

[rod_of_iron]

Didi:

So, when we are in heaven, truly in the Presence of Our Lord, with all the saints and angels, don’t you think we’ll want to do everything we can to help everyone on earth make it to heaven? We’ll have an eternity to pray for our brothers and sisters, and because we are In The Presence of Love and Mercy, we will want that to extend to everyone!

Where in the Bible does it say that those who have died and gone to heaven are able to help us with our salvation? If this is not found in the Bible, I agree with SpokenWord that this is just speculation or wishful thinking.

 

[rod_of_iron]

space ghost:

I have a baby sister who died at 18 months of age… obviously a saint in heaven now… i have asked for her intercession many a time… not a problem… no different then asking for the intercession from any of the saints in heaven…

So, you believe that your sister gained all this ability and wisdom upon her death to pray for you? By the way, at 18 months old, your sister was already a saint on Earth. She had not yet reached the age of accountability, so she immediately went to heaven. But I do not see how she could have the ability or wisdom to pray for you, unless you believe that she is now an adult in heaven.

Anyway, I would suggest that you will have better luck with your prayers if you pray to God directly, through His Son.

 

[rod_of_iron]

GoodME:

A couple of thoughts here.

• We are not given everlasting EXISTENCE with God, but everlasting LIFE with God.
• LIFE to me denotes action and an affect on the surroundings.
• So if we believe someone is ALIVE in the presence of God, that soul might be in a pretty good position to plead our case, in addition to ourselves and Jesus.
• Another angle is that by praying TO GOD that a Saint pray for us, we are recognizing to God that we recognize the special closeness that this soul has with God, and how closely aligned with God’s will this person’s will must have been. And I would think that God would find that pleasing.

I would think that praying to the saints would upset Him. He made it very clear to Moses that He is a jealous God. Why would you expect a jealous God to happily allow you to pray to one of His creations (i.e. a Catholic Saint)? God wants all the prayers directed to Him. Why would God be pleased if you prayed to anyone but Him, no matter how righteous that person may have been or may still be?

 

[rod_of_iron]

Katholikos:

The Book of Revelation is actually a description of the heavenly liturgy – the Mass – that is constantly going on in the presence of God. Read *The Lamb’s Supper, The Mass as Heaven on Earth *by Scott Hahn, Ph.D.

The Mass is constantly going on in heaven? Does this include the Eucharist? If so, how can bread and wine become the literal broken body and spilt blood of Jesus when no flesh is in heaven? Also, if transubstantiation is occurring in heaven, doesn’t Jesus get crucified over and over again constantly in order to provide His body and blood for the Eucharist? Doesn’t Jesus eventually get tired of being crucified for every observance of the Mass?

 

[Katholikos]

SPOKENWORD:

Jay, it says Gods Holy people. You say its the saints in heaven. I say its our prayers whom God calls us His holy people.]

You don’t think those who are in heaven are ‘holy people’? Only us earthlings? Hmmmmmm.

As you have said, this is your own private interpretation, your own opinion, based on your own authority.

My authority is Christ and his Apostles who have taught prayer to the saints to and through His Church since 33 A.D. Pardon me for thinking that my authority is better than yours.

Peace be with you, Jay​

Carved on the wall near St. Peter’s tomb is the inscription: “Peter pray for the pious Christian men buried near your body” (The Tomb of St. Peter, by Margherita Guarducci, George G. Harrup & Co., 1959, p.146.)

 

[Katholikos]

rod of iron:

The Mass is constantly going on in heaven? Does this include the Eucharist? If so, how can bread and wine become the literal broken body and spilt blood of Jesus when no flesh is in heaven? Also, if transubstantiation is occurring in heaven, doesn’t Jesus get crucified over and over again constantly in order to provide His body and blood for the Eucharist? Doesn’t Jesus eventually get tired of being crucified for every observance of the Mass?

ROI, read the book. Find out what the Catholic Church teaches before you criticize her for things she does not teach. You have an obligation to do so as a pseudo-Christian (you are not a Christian, but a follower of Joseph Smith.)

Jesus is not crucified at every Mass. Your knowledge of the Catholic religion is less than zero, zilch, nada. Don’t you want to save your reputation and find out about the Catholic Church before you make more of these ignorant statements in public? Ignorant is a perfectly good word – it means “not knowing.”

This is not a thread about the Eucharist. It’s about praying to the Saints.

Peace to you and to all who post at Catholic Answers.

JMJ Jay

 

[rod_of_iron]

Katholikos:

You don’t think those who are in heaven are ‘holy people’? Only us earthlings? Hmmmmmm.

As you have said, this is your own private interpretation, your own opinion, based on your own authority.

My authority is Christ and his Apostles who have taught prayer to the saints to and through His Church since 33 A.D. Pardon me for thinking that my authority is better than yours.

Really? Where is it written that Christ prayed to the Saints? Where did He teach His Apostles to pray to the Saints? Where did Jesus tell us to pray to His mother after she died? If Christ and His Apostles taught that we should pray to the Saints, I would naturally expect to find this activity mentioned somewhere in the 4 gospels.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Katholikos:

ROI, read the book. Find out what the Catholic Church teaches before you criticize her for things she does not teach. You have an obligation to do so as a pseudo-Christian (you are not a Christian, but a follower of Joseph Smith.)

Really? I’m not a Christian? I am glad to see that I am not the only one who is ignorant here. My Savior is not Joseph Smith, unless you claim Peter as your Savior. My Savior is Jesus Christ. I was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith. For you to claim that I am not a christian is just an example of you showing your ignorance. As a matter of fact, I do not pray to Joseph Smith. If I did pray to him and a couple of verifiable miracles were performed, do you think the pope would declare him a saint?

Katholikos:

Jesus is not crucified at every Mass. Your knowledge of the Catholic religion is less than zero, zilch, nada. Don’t you want to save your reputation and find out about the Catholic Church before you make more of these ignorant statements in public? Ignorant is a perfectly good word – it means “not knowing.”

Sure, I am ignorant of this, because it sounds rather ridiculous to me. If the bread and wine is transubstantiated, it would seem that the body and blood has to come from somewhere. Does Jesus have a warehouse full of body and blood that He can use for the Mass? I would not be talking about the Mass in this thread, had it not been brought up as being performed constantly in heaven.

 

[Katholikos]

rod of iron:

I would think that praying to the saints would upset Him. He made it very clear to Moses that He is a jealous God. Why would you expect a jealous God to happily allow you to pray to one of His creations (i.e. a Catholic Saint)? God wants all the prayers directed to Him. Why would God be pleased if you prayed to anyone but Him, no matter how righteous that person may have been or may still be?

ROI, we don’t “pray to saints” expecting that they have the power to directly answer our prayers. We “pray to saints” to ask them to pray with us to God. ‘Pray’ means to ask. The saints are our elder brothers and sisters in the Faith. They live in the presence of God. Any friend of God’s is a friend of mine (Patrick Madrid’s book title). So of course we’re going to ask for their prayers.

The only power any saint has is the power of prayer – and the prayer of a righteous man (or woman) availeth much (James 5:16 KJV). We ask our friends, relatives, even perfect strangers to pray for us. Why would it upset God if I also ask St. Paul or St. Matthew or St. Mary to join us in petititoning Him for some favor?

You first need to know what Catholics mean when they speak about “praying to the saints.” You are making wrong assumptions and leaping to wrong conclusions.

JMJ Jay

 

[Malachi4U]

There seems to be some confusion between Catholics and protestants so lets define words here:

Pray means ‘to ask’ or make a humble request. By this definition prayer does not have to be directed to God alone. So to pray may only be humble request or an ‘asking’ and nothing more. This also means we ‘ask’ the saints to pray with us to God in our prayer chain.

Worship means reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; an act of expressing such reverence, a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual, extravagant respect or admiration or devotion. By definition we can worship someone deserving of our admiration or devotion even though they are not God by any means. We can also worship God.

Venerate means to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference or to honor with a ritual act of devotion. Based on this Catholics do in fact venerate Blessed Mary as well as our parents, great people in history like the apostles, and Christian martyrs. These people have a special place in our hearts.

Adore means to worship or honor as a deity or as divine with loving admiration and devotion. Based on this definition Catholics adore God and God alone!

Now that we have a ‘common’ vocabulary you see clearly that we can pray or worship someone even though they are not divine.

If you are an SDA you believe in ‘Soul Sleep’ but if you are a ‘mainstream’ Christian like Catholics then you believe in immediate life after death. That means that when we die Jesus judges us and if we are judged worthy of salvation we go to heaven and are ‘alive’ with Jesus and not lying dead in the ground with deaf ears while we sleep. Anyone who believes we die and have deaf ears must believe in ‘Soul Sleep’.

God is the God of the living not the dead. Mt 12:26-27 There are Biblical prayer to angels. Psalm 103:20-21, Psalm 148:1-2 There is veneration of angels Matthew 18:10, Joshua 5:13-14, Daniel 8:16-17 Saints are united with God 1 Corinthians 13:12, 1 John 3:2, Hebrews 12:22-24 Those who died are like angels Luke 20:34-38 Intersession of saints Rev 5:8, Rev 8:3-4, Jeremiah 15:1 etc…

Now as you say if protestants believe everyone in heaven is no longer concerned with earthly things then why bother to pray to God at all? He is not concerned with earthly things either then is he? This protestant statement is absurd and illogical. Ignore it. It reminds me of when a close Baptist friend of mine told me Catholic priests were all deranged and mentally ill psychopaths because they were celibate. Only a mentally ill person would be celibate! I responded to them with, “So, was Jesus too?” The Baptist shut up.

One last thing too and perhaps most important of all. See CCC 460 and research it. It’s on a thread. You will find out that if we become a part of God or His divinity, would we not as saints hear what God hears?

 

[Kathy_Perry]

SPOKENWORD:

Saints who gone before us cannot hear our prayers because there ears are in the grave.

The will and the intellect belong to the soul, not the body, and they do go with those who die. The body is needed only on earth, although it will join our soul at the end of the world because we were made by God as body and soul and not just pure spirits. Do you think the angels need ears to “hear” us or even God, as He is a Spirit too.

 

[Kathy_Perry]

Trinitatem:

I pray to saints for their intercession, as even though they may be in heaven, they’re still working for our salvation. Their prayers never cease in helping us here on earth. In the canonization of a saint, certain miracles must be attributed to the saint. These include answered prayers for those suffering here on earth.

I think we need to pray for the souls in purgatory, as I also believe when they are freed from purgatory, they pray for us.

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ, whether passed on from this life to heaven or not. And all should be concerned with overall salavation: uniting all souls to Christ.

I believe they pray for us while yet in purgatory