Praying to Dead People

[Kathy_Perry]

rod of iron:

Where is the concept of purgatory found in the Bible? I have heard that saints do not go to this purgatory. But if saints are not declared as such until years after they have died, wouldn’t it be logical to believe that they go to this purgatory you believe in until some pope decides that they are a saint, and thus promotes them out of purgatory?

They are Saints the moment they enter Heaven, but the Church just declares that to us at the Canonization.

 

[Katholikos]

Malachi4U:

One last thing too and perhaps most important of all. See CCC 460 and research it. It’s on a thread. You will find out that if we become a part of God or His divinity, would we not as saints hear what God hears?

Malachi, it is God who allows the saints to hear our prayers. The saints are not omniscient.

We do not become “part of God or His divinity.” Deification means that we become ***adopted ***sons and daughters of God; partakers in his Divine Nature through the Sacraments. The Sacraments convey to us the Divine Life of God to nournish our souls on our journey to heaven. We will be in union with God, but not part of Him.

We need a good apologetic for CCC 460 to make the meaning clear.

I’ll write to my bishop and get a definitive answer and post it. But he’s a busy guy. It may take a while for him to answer.

I asked this Q of the Ask an Apologist forum at CA, but they declined to answer it.

We do not become God, which would be the case if we became “part of God.”

JMJ Jay

 

[Kathy_Perry]

rod of iron:

So, you believe that your sister gained all this ability and wisdom upon her death to pray for you? By the way, at 18 months old, your sister was already a saint on Earth. She had not yet reached the age of accountability, so she immediately went to heaven. But I do not see how she could have the ability or wisdom to pray for you, unless you believe that she is now an adult in heaven.

Anyway, I would suggest that you will have better luck with your prayers if you pray to God directly, through His Son.

What do you think the Mass is all about? The Saints, Angels, and the Blessed Mother all pray WITH us and for us. They Help us. When we pray “to” them, that is what we are asking them to do. We are NOT putting them ahead of God. Jesus said when two or MORE are gathered together, I am there with them.

 

[Katholikos]

Kathy Perry:

I believe they pray for us while yet in purgatory

Right on, Kathy!

“The living Faithful can come to the assistance of the Souls in Purgatory by their intercessions (suffrages)” Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 321.

“The Saints in Heaven also can come to the help of the Souls in Purgatory by their intercession” ibid, p. 322.

“The Souls in Purgatory can intercede for other members of the Mystical Body” ibid, p. 323

JMJ Jay

 

[Kathy_Perry]

rod of iron:

The Mass is constantly going on in heaven? Does this include the Eucharist? If so, how can bread and wine become the literal broken body and spilt blood of Jesus when no flesh is in heaven? Also, if transubstantiation is occurring in heaven, doesn’t Jesus get crucified over and over again constantly in order to provide His body and blood for the Eucharist? Doesn’t Jesus eventually get tired of being crucified for every observance of the Mass?

Oh but there is flesh in Heaven, Jesus is there, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity and Mary is there body and soul. You have to learn the true meaning of the Mass and also go to Mass as you learn, to get the full meaning of it. The bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus, because HE said it would. While your at it, study about the Eucharistic Miracles too.

 

[David_F]

go Leafs go:

I am commonly told that praying to anyone other than God is putting them on the level of a Diety. I understand that protestants generally view “praying” as worship, which is part of the problem.

I don’t understand why they think Saints who have gone before us cannot hear our prayers? How can we be certain that they do?

I understand that we pray to saints as they are now righteous people and prayers from Righteous people availeth much, however Protestants in general view dead saints as being in Paradise and not concerned with earthly happenings given they no longer have pain, sorrow, etc.

Thanks.

Hello Leafs,
I would like to offer some suggestions to you.

Rom 8:35-39. Read this. It is not just a beautiful description of the endurance of Christ’s love for us but a promise that we will NEVER be seperated from His love.

To me, this means exactly what it says. Should the relationship of my eternal soul with Christ change because it is no longer trapped in my body? I don’t believe this to be true.

As you mentioned in your post, the prayers of righteous people availeth much and has the power to changed the will of God as noted in the OT (i can find these references if you need it, lemmeno).

Also, refer to Mark9:1-9. Christ “converses” with Elijah and Moses as Peter, James and John look on. If these righteous people of the OT are able to speak to Christ Jesus, then, why not now? And why not the other saints that are in heaven today who are also favored and righteous in the eyes of God?

I know people have already discussed intercessory prayer so I’ll skip that point.

When people say, “Where in the Bible does it say that those who have died and gone to heaven are able to help us with our salvation?” Ask them, where does it read that it does not?

Some people forget that not all that Christ taught his disciples is recorded in scripture. Good reason to be thankful for the Sacred Tradition we have in the Church.

One more thing… Does it seem to you that some people feel that these topics have never come up for debate in all of history until now. My goodness, what must they think about the fathers of the Church? What sort of people did Christ entrust His Church to? You can bet if we are debating about topics that create doctrinal divisions now, on this forum, you can bet these same topics have been debated throughout the ages. And if they are taught now, they were found worthy of teaching. Sorry for the long post. Peace be with you my friend.

YBIC,
David

 

[Katholikos]

rod of iron:

Really? I’m not a Christian? I am glad to see that I am not the only one who is ignorant here. My Savior is not Joseph Smith, unless you claim Peter as your Savior. My Savior is Jesus Christ. I was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith. For you to claim that I am not a christian is just an example of you showing your ignorance. As a matter of fact, I do not pray to Joseph Smith. If I did pray to him and a couple of verifiable miracles were performed, do you think the pope would declare him a saint?

Sure, I am ignorant of this, because it sounds rather ridiculous to me. If the bread and wine is transubstantiated, it would seem that the body and blood has to come from somewhere. Does Jesus have a warehouse full of body and blood that He can use for the Mass? I would not be talking about the Mass in this thread, had it not been brought up as being performed constantly in heaven.

Philosophy sounds rather ridiculous to those who do not know it or understand it.

The Mass is a prayer – the perfect prayer. It is offered in the company of the saints. That’s why I brought it up on this thread. The Eucharist is the fruit of the Mass; it is not the Mass.

Again, you’re confused – you just don’t know. So why don’t you find out before you speak (or write)? Why display your lack of knowledge in public? Or, you could ask us. We’d be glad to answer your questions. But you’re trying to tell us what our religion teaches, what we believe, and what occurs at the Holy Mass and what it means. That’s rude of you – and ignorant.

P.S. It what we believe about Christ, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, that makes us Christian.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

rod of iron:

Really? Where is it written that Christ prayed to the Saints? Where did He teach His Apostles to pray to the Saints? Where did Jesus tell us to pray to His mother after she died? If Christ and His Apostles taught that we should pray to the Saints, I would naturally expect to find this activity mentioned somewhere in the 4 gospels.

Why would you “naturally” expect to find this activity mentioned somewhere in the four Gospels?

The NT is not an instruction book in Christianity. It is the literary expression of the spiritual life of the newborn Catholic Church – the New Israel (Gal 6:16, James 1:1, Rm 11:26) – during the first 100 years or so of its existence. It was written by Catholics to Catholics, by believers to believers. The early Christians learned their religion from the lips of the Apostles. The NT was supplementary to the oral instruction they had already received. The NT letters were written over time to deal with problems that had arisen in already existing Churches. Sts. Peter, James, Jude, Paul, and John were reminding their readers of what they already had been taught by their own lips. Look who the NT is addressed to and when it was written.

The NT is written oral tradition. There was Sacred Apostolic Tradition that did not get written down and become Scripture (when the Church was already 400 years old) that was preserved in other ways.

This is too deep a subject to discuss on this thread, but you’re mistaken if you think everything Christ taught is in the collection of writings we now call the NT.

JMJ Jay

 

[Malachi4U]

Katholikos:

…

We do not become “part of God or His divinity.”…We do not become God…

Katholikos,

CCC 460 "The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

2 Pe 1:4 “4 Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divinenature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.”

I suggest you study the writings by the following men on whose great writings CCC 460 was in part based: St. Irenaeus, St. Athanasius and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Also study writings on “*partakers of the divine nature” *in particular.

Either you are right or the Catechism of the Catholic Church is. I will go with the CCC for now.

This Sunday in mass read along with and pay attention to the offertory prayer. You may ‘see’ something you never saw before. I did when I researched this topic.

Next, you should note I put a question mark at the end of the sentence in that remark you quoted as I posed a question and not a statement of fact. Perhaps you did not see it. I also advised others to go to the thread to learn more on this topic as it is long. May comment was short and abbreviated to fit.

God does allow everything as He can give or take what He wills. We do not know what awareness, understanding or insight God allows His saints in heaven. You have denied something God may have given them. After all, He has all power to do anything. I do not know what ‘gifts’ God has granted His saints but be it far from me to deny Him the freedom to do as He wills.

I had to delete from that post to make it fit this comment. When I first saw CCC 460 I had a crises of Faith! If this statement in the CCC was False then I would have become a devout atheist. I know that Christ established the Catholic Church so if it was proven false, then there could be no God! If the statement was true, which it is, I would have an even greater ‘hope’ and Faith. Which I do.

 

[Katholikos]

rod of iron:

Anyway, I would suggest that you will have better luck with your prayers if you pray to God directly, through His Son.

Catholics have been “praying to the saints” for 2,000 years. Don’t you think we’d have given it up by now if it were not beneficial? We “pray to the saints” – which is a figure of speech meaning that we ask the saints to pray for us – because it works!!!

A new Catholic in England just wrote to me, deliriously happy. She asked for the intercession of St. Martin, St. Rose, and the Blessed Virgin Mary in helping her obtain a job she really wanted. She got it, in spite of enormous odds against her being selected because she didn’t meet the qualifications. Ask her about prayers to the saints!

The prayer of a righteous man – especially one in heaven --availeth much!

JMJ Jay

---

"Peter pray for the pious Christian men buried near your body."

 

[Trinitatem]

rod of iron:

Where is the concept of purgatory found in the Bible? I have heard that saints do not go to this purgatory. But if saints are not declared as such until years after they have died, wouldn’t it be logical to believe that they go to this purgatory you believe in until some pope decides that they are a saint, and thus promotes them out of purgatory?

I was not speaking of the saints there. I was speaking of any soul in purgatory. Although St. Therese, the little flower, said once that if it would please Jesus and help souls, she would go there to suffer. (Wow). I do believe the saints go directly to heaven. But if we pray for those (non-saints) in purgatory, I believe those souls, once purified, will pray for us in kind.

 

[Trinitatem]

Kathy Perry:

I believe they pray for us while yet in purgatory

Good point.

 

[Trinitatem]

rod of iron:

I would think that praying to the saints would upset Him. He made it very clear to Moses that He is a jealous God. Why would you expect a jealous God to happily allow you to pray to one of His creations (i.e. a Catholic Saint)? God wants all the prayers directed to Him. Why would God be pleased if you prayed to anyone but Him, no matter how righteous that person may have been or may still be?

I think you are thinking Old Testament. It is you that calls Him jealous, based on your interpretations. After Jesus, the holy covenant familial bond was restored. Catholics pray to saints, because saints, here on earth, are close to God, and they dedicate their life and sufferings to God and for the good of all souls. When we pray to them, we are asking them, who know how to pray, for their intercessions, or prayers. Of course we pray to Jesus, but in this valley of tears, all prayers are necessary. Do you not think Jesus’ arm grows heavy in blessing the sinners who continue to choose sin, yet ask for their prayers to be answered? T

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Malachi4U:

Katholikos,

CCC 460 "The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

2 Pe 1:4 “4 Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divinenature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.”

I suggest you study the writings by the following men on whose great writings CCC 460 was in part based: St. Irenaeus, St. Athanasius and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Also study writings on “*partakers of the divine nature” *in particular.

Either you are right or the Catechism of the Catholic Church is. I will go with the CCC for now.

This Sunday in mass read along with and pay attention to the offertory prayer. You may ‘see’ something you never saw before. I did when I researched this topic.

Next, you should note I put a question mark at the end of the sentence in that remark you quoted as I posed a question and not a statement of fact. Perhaps you did not see it. I also advised others to go to the thread to learn more on this topic as it is long. May comment was short and abbreviated to fit.

God does allow everything as He can give or take what He wills. We do not know what awareness, understanding or insight God allows His saints in heaven. You have denied something God may have given them. After all, He has all power to do anything. I do not know what ‘gifts’ God has granted His saints but be it far from me to deny Him the freedom to do as He wills.

] Personally I have a problem calling myself God. I have no idea where the RCC comes up with this thought.Yes we take on Christs nature,we become Christlike. Yes Christ dwells in us.There is only one who is called the Christ and it sure isnt me.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Kathy Perry:

They are Saints the moment they enter Heaven, but the Church just declares that to us at the Canonization.

Really? So, the pope is a prophet? If not, there is no way he could know about people after their deaths. It would have to be revealed to him.

I thought that a person can only become a saint when a couple of miracles have occurred when they were being prayed to. If so, it would seem that some time would pass before these alleged miracles could occur.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Kathy Perry:

What do you think the Mass is all about? The Saints, Angels, and the Blessed Mother all pray WITH us and for us. They Help us. When we pray “to” them, that is what we are asking them to do. We are NOT putting them ahead of God. Jesus said when two or MORE are gathered together, I am there with them.

Where in the Bible is it written that the Saints or Mary pray with us and for us? This is just wishful thinking. When you pray to a go-between, you are indeed putting that person ahead of God. This doesn’t mean that you believe this person is more powerful than God or that he or she will answer you in place of God. But you are still putting that person ahead of God.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Katholikos:

Right on, Kathy!

“The living Faithful can come to the assistance of the Souls in Purgatory by their intercessions (suffrages)” Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 321.

“The Saints in Heaven also can come to the help of the Souls in Purgatory by their intercession” ibid, p. 322.

“The Souls in Purgatory can intercede for other members of the Mystical Body” ibid, p. 323

JMJ Jay

Purgatory is unbiblical. There is no support for it in the Bible.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Kathy Perry:

Oh but there is flesh in Heaven, Jesus is there, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity and Mary is there body and soul. You have to learn the true meaning of the Mass and also go to Mass as you learn, to get the full meaning of it. The bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus, because HE said it would. While your at it, study about the Eucharistic Miracles too.

I disagree. There is no flesh in heaven. Jesus has is immortal body. The fleshly body is a corruptible body which will die. Neither Jesus, not Enoch, nor Elijah, nor anyone else who has been taken into heaven has a body of flesh and blood any longer. Their bodies are not incorruptible and can no longer die.
There is no evidence in the Bible that Mary was taken into heaven or that she was resurrected.

If the bread and wine becomes the literal body and blood of Christ, then you are obviously guilty of cannibalism. If you eat any human body or blood, you are a cannibal.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Katholikos:

But you’re trying to tell us what our religion teaches, what we believe, and what occurs at the Holy Mass and what it means. That’s rude of you – and ignorant.

But Jay, this is the exact same thing that you and others have done with the Mormon church. You try to tell the Mormons what their religion teaches, and what they believe, and what it means. You have tried to do that also with what I believe. If I am rude and ignorant because of my speaking of your religion, you would be equally as rude and ignorant to speak for other religions, such as the Mormons, or for what I believe. You condemn me for doing something that you are clearly not above doing yourself. I don’t think that I need to tell you what that makes you.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Katholikos:

Why would you “naturally” expect to find this activity mentioned somewhere in the four Gospels?

Well, you said that this activity was done back in 33 AD. One would then expect to see that activity mentioned in the gospels, since these gospels include that time period within them. Can you show me where Jesus is recorded as ever teaching anyone to pray to the Saints?

Of course, another question does come to mind. How many declared saints would have existed in 33 AD? Doesn’t the pope alone declare someone as being a saint? If so, what pope was in power before Jesus ascended to heaven?

Katholikos:

The NT is not an instruction book in Christianity. It is the literary expression of the spiritual life of the newborn Catholic Church – the New Israel (Gal 6:16, James 1:1, Rm 11:26) – during the first 100 years or so of its existence.

The Catholic church, huh? Yet, I still cannot find the evidence within the Bible to make a definite and logical connection between the church that Jesus established and the church that has been known as the Roman Catholic church.

Katholikos:

It was written by Catholics to Catholics, by believers to believers.

There is no evidence that I can find in the Bible that the Bible was written by Catholics. The Bible was written by Jews who had been converted to Christ.

Katholikos:

There was Sacred Apostolic Tradition that did not get written down and become Scripture (when the Church was already 400 years old) that was preserved in other ways.

Sacred Apostolic Tradition? I do not see any evidence to support this idea of a Sacred Tradition either. It appears that this idea of sacred tradition was conceived by men, not God. All it takes for something to become a tradition is for it to be decided upon and practiced over a period of time, until you reach a point where you cannot remember not practicing it. A lie, if practiced over a period of time, can become a sacred tradition, just as the truth can. Just because something is a tradition does not guarantee its validity.