Praying to Dead People

[ktm]

rod of iron:

Purgatory is unbiblical. There is no support for it in the Bible.

Hi rod,

If you have a moment to read a short document, here is a link to a good description of why Catholics believe in Purgatory. It gives the Scriptural references we use to support our belief in it. I hope this clears up any questions you may have regarding the Catholic teaching on this subject.

If you do have questions after reading this document, be sure to post them!

ktm

 

[ktm]

rod of iron:

Where in the Bible is it written that the Saints or Mary pray with us and for us? This is just wishful thinking. When you pray to a go-between, you are indeed putting that person ahead of God. This doesn’t mean that you believe this person is more powerful than God or that he or she will answer you in place of God. But you are still putting that person ahead of God.

Hi again rod,

Here is a link to some information about Catholic teaching about the intercession of the saints. Again, I think this would help you in better understanding what we Catholics believe on the matter.

As I said in the previous post, if you do have questions after reading this document, be sure to post them on the board here.

ktm

 

[rod_of_iron]

Katholikos:

Catholics have been “praying to the saints” for 2,000 years. Don’t you think we’d have given it up by now if it were not beneficial? We “pray to the saints” – which is a figure of speech meaning that we ask the saints to pray for us – because it works!!!

I pray directly to God, and it works. Why would I ever want to pray to anyone else except my creator? You have this wild idea that the more people you can get to pray for you, the more likely it will be that God will hear your prayer and answer it. Yes, the Bible says that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. But it does not say that the prayers of more than one righteous person availeth much more. It would seem that Catholics believe that if you gang up on the Lord God, He will eventually cave-in to the pressure and will grant you your request. God is going to do things only according to His will. He is not so fickle that one righteous person or a multitude of righteous people can sway Him away from what He has willed to do.

 

[ktm]

rod of iron:

I pray directly to God, and it works. Why would I ever want to pray to anyone else except my creator? You have this wild idea that the more people you can get to pray for you, the more likely it will be that God will hear your prayer and answer it. Yes, the Bible says that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. But it does not say that the prayers of more than one righteous person availeth much more. It would seem that Catholics believe that if you gang up on the Lord God, He will eventually cave-in to the pressure and will grant you your request. God is going to do things only according to His will. He is not so fickle that one righteous person or a multitude of righteous people can sway Him away from what He has willed to do.

Oh dear, this is not what we believe at all. You ought to read the document at that link I gave. It will explain it very clearly. What you think we believe is not even close to what we actually do believe.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

How do you reconcile the Bible verses, which says:
#1.) The dead know not anything, (ecclesiates 9:5,6) ?

#2.) Dead praise not…the Lord", (Psalms 115:17) ?

#3.) Thoughts perish at death, (Psalms 146:4) ?

#4.) Dead knows not what happens, (Job 14:21,21) ?

Gods Word is Truth,

 

[David_F]

rod of iron:

I pray directly to God, and it works. Why would I ever want to pray to anyone else except my creator? You have this wild idea that the more people you can get to pray for you, the more likely it will be that God will hear your prayer and answer it. Yes, the Bible says that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. But it does not say that the prayers of more than one righteous person availeth much more. It would seem that Catholics believe that if you gang up on the Lord God, He will eventually cave-in to the pressure and will grant you your request. God is going to do things only according to His will. He is not so fickle that one righteous person or a multitude of righteous people can sway Him away from what He has willed to do.

Hello Rod,

I’ve been cathcing up on this post. I have a couple of questions.

1. Is everything the apostles knew or learned recorded in the bible?
2. Can you tell if you are a righteous person? If so, by what means?

Thanks,

David

 

[David_F]

SPOKENWORD:

How do you reconcile the Bible verses, which says:
#1.) The dead know not anything, (ecclesiates 9:5,6) ?

Gods Word is Truth,

What is the general message of this book and this chapter?

David

 

[SPOKENWORD]

David F:

Hello Rod,

I’ve been cathcing up on this post. I have a couple of questions.

1. Is everything the apostles knew or learned recorded in the bible?
2. Can you tell if you are a righteous person? If so, by what means?

Thanks,

David

I dont know about Rod but I can tell you I am a righteous person as I am talking to you. Righteous means being right before God.

 

[David_F]

SPOKENWORD:

How do you reconcile the Bible verses, which says:

#2.) Dead praise not…the Lord", (Psalms 115:17) ?

#3.) Thoughts perish at death, (Psalms 146:4) ?

Gods Word is Truth,

#2 What type of souls is this verse referencing?

#3 Again, what is the message of this psalm?

David

 

[David_F]

SPOKENWORD:

I dont know about Rod but I can tell you I am a righteous person as I am talking to you. Righteous means being right before God.

Thanks for your response spokenword. I am looking at my post am just now seeing that I didn’t phrase it properly. Excuse me. What I meant to ask in # 2 was if you are righteous, how do you know? Thanks,
David

 

[ichabod]

It seems like most of these quotes are taken out of context –

How do you reconcile the Bible verses, which says:
#1.) The dead know not anything, (ecclesiates 9:5,6) ?
In context, this seems to be talking about earthly knowledge, not experiential knowledge. If heaven is experiencing God(knowing God in a more complete way), this implies that those who suffer earthly death can’t experience heaven.

#2.) Dead praise not…the Lord", (Psalms 115:17) ?
The dead do not praise the LORD, all those gone down into silence.
It could easily be interpreted “All those dead gone down into silence do not praise the Lord (or anything for that matter)” Whose interpretation do we use? I think yours is wrong

#3.) Thoughts perish at death, (Psalms 146:4) ?
The NAB version reads

• When they breathe their last, they return to the earth; that day all their planning comes to nothing.*
  Given this translation, the passage no longer supports your premise.
  #4.) Dead knows not what happens, (Job 14:21,21) ?
  This last one is not a quote - it is an amalgam. Job is not an escatological discourse, it is a poem about despair. In this section of the poem, it talks about how God wears down man and turns him away, so that he is separated from even his family. The reference to the dead is several sentences away, separated by the verses:
  15
  You would call, and I would answer you; you would esteem the work of your hands.
  16
  Surely then you would count my steps, and not keep watch for sin in me.
  17
  My misdeeds would be sealed up in a pouch, and you would cover over my guilt.

The poem changes perspective, and if not read in context, you don’t see the change.

I can see easily if these were read incompletely or with a preconception in mind, you could easily come up with a different interpretation. One nice thing about the Catholic church is that it knows how to read its own book. The inerrancy of the bible is not in extracted singular quips, but in the meaning of its writing as a whole.

 

[Trinitatem]

rod of iron:

Purgatory is unbiblical. There is no support for it in the Bible.

It seems you believe in sola scriptura. This is where we differ in our beliefs. Catholics also believe in sacred tradition.

" It is witnessed to not only in such as 2 Maccabees, which itself witnesses to the belief (see below), but in other pre-Christian Jewish books as well, such as , which speaks of Adam being freed from purgatory on the Last Day. It was also part of the true religion in Jesus’ day, as the writings of the New Testament show. And it has been part of the true religion ever since Christ’s day, as the writings of the Church Fathers show (see the Catholic Answers pamphlet: “The Fathers Know Best: Purgatory”). Not only Catholics believe in this final purification, but the Eastern Orthodox do as well (though they often do not use the term “purgatory” for it), as do Orthodox Jews. In fact, to this day, when a Jewish person’s loved one dies, he prays a prayer known as the Mourner’s Qaddish for eleven months after the death for the loved one’s purification.
Because the doctrine of purgatory was held by pre-Christian Jews, post-Christian Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, nobody thought of denying it until the Protestant Reformation, and thus only Protestants deny it today."
From “How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants,” by James Akin

 

[SPOKENWORD]

ichabod:

It seems like most of these quotes are taken out of context –

How do you reconcile the Bible verses, which says:
#1.) The dead know not anything, (ecclesiates 9:5,6) ?
In context, this seems to be talking about earthly knowledge, not experiential knowledge. If heaven is experiencing God(knowing God in a more complete way), this implies that those who suffer earthly death can’t experience heaven.

#2.) Dead praise not…the Lord", (Psalms 115:17) ?
The dead do not praise the LORD, all those gone down into silence.
It could easily be interpreted “All those dead gone down into silence do not praise the Lord (or anything for that matter)” Whose interpretation do we use? I think yours is wrong

#3.) Thoughts perish at death, (Psalms 146:4) ?
The NAB version reads

• When they breathe their last, they return to the earth; that day all their planning comes to nothing.*
  Given this translation, the passage no longer supports your premise.
  #4.) Dead knows not what happens, (Job 14:21,21) ?
  This last one is not a quote - it is an amalgam. Job is not an escatological discourse, it is a poem about despair. In this section of the poem, it talks about how God wears down man and turns him away, so that he is separated from even his family. The reference to the dead is several sentences away, separated by the verses:
  15
  You would call, and I would answer you; you would esteem the work of your hands.
  16
  Surely then you would count my steps, and not keep watch for sin in me.
  17
  My misdeeds would be sealed up in a pouch, and you would cover over my guilt.

The poem changes perspective, and if not read in context, you don’t see the change.

I can see easily if these were read incompletely or with a preconception in mind, you could easily come up with a different interpretation. One nice thing about the Catholic church is that it knows how to read its own book. The inerrancy of the bible is not in extracted singular quips, but in the meaning of its writing as a whole.

After reading these verses in full context I agree with You. My appoligy for pasting this from another tread. I agree I can see that they can be taken out of context. They all speak in earthly context. Life is a learning process, thank you for correcting me.

 

[Racer_X]

A lot of ground has been covered here so far. My two cents:

When dialoguing with a Protestant on this issue, if you require to refrain from the using the word “pray” and just each say what you really mean, the reasonableness of the Catholic position is soon apparent.

 

[rod_of_iron]

ichabod:

One nice thing about the Catholic church is that it knows how to read its own book. The inerrancy of the bible is not in extracted singular quips, but in the meaning of its writing as a whole.

Most Catholic I know do not read the Bible. If they do, they sure are not as dedicated in reading it as are other denominations, such as those that are Evengelical.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Trinitatem:

It seems you believe in sola scriptura. This is where we differ in our beliefs. Catholics also believe in sacred tradition.

As I have said elsewhere, anything can become “tradition” if it is practiced enough and believed enough. But this does not guarantee it to be truth.

Trinitatem:

" It is witnessed to not only in such as 2 Maccabees, which itself witnesses to the belief (see below), but in other pre-Christian Jewish books as well, such as , which speaks of Adam being freed from purgatory on the Last Day.

If these books were so inspired, why are they not found in the Bible?

Trinitatem:

It was also part of the true religion in Jesus’ day, as the writings of the New Testament show.

Where does the NT show this?

Trinitatem:

And it has been part of the true religion ever since Christ’s day, as the writings of the Church Fathers show (see the Catholic Answers pamphlet: “The Fathers Know Best: Purgatory”).

Which of these Church Fathers were alive in Christ’s day to witness “prugatory” being taught in Christ’s day?

Trinitatem:

Not only Catholics believe in this final purification, but the Eastern Orthodox do as well (though they often do not use the term “purgatory” for it), as do Orthodox Jews.

Well, that doesn’t surprise me. The Eastern Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church were one before the Great Schism. But this schism did not occur before or while Jesus and His apostles were on the Earth. So, this would hardly prove that the idea of “purgatory” was taught by Christ.

Trinitatem:

In fact, to this day, when a Jewish person’s loved one dies, he prays a prayer known as the Mourner’s Qaddish for eleven months after the death for the loved one’s purification.

Oh really? Where is this prayer found in the Law of Moses? How can you be sure that God taught the Jews to pray this prayer?

Trinitatem:

Because the doctrine of purgatory was held by pre-Christian Jews, post-Christian Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, nobody thought of denying it until the Protestant Reformation, and thus only Protestants deny it today."

But you have failed to show me where Christ taught this doctrine. In Hebrews 6:1-2, the principles of the doctrine of Christ are listed. Purgatory is not listed among them.

 

[rod_of_iron]

ktm:

Hi rod,

If you have a moment to read a short document, here is a link to a good description of why Catholics believe in Purgatory. It gives the Scriptural references we use to support our belief in it. I hope this clears up any questions you may have regarding the Catholic teaching on this subject.

If you do have questions after reading this document, be sure to post them!

ktm

ktm,

I have read this link you posted, and I was not able to find any mention on that page about what the Catholic believes the role of Christ’s blood plays in this sanctification. If most people still need to go to a place where they have to suffer because Christ’s blood was not good enough, then I have a problem with the Christ you believe in.

Christ suffered on the cross once and for all so that we need not suffer. He has provided us an infinite atonement. Christ has never told us that after we are atoned by His blood, we must still suffer through a period of time after our deaths. Christ died on the cross not to just soften the blow and relieve only a portion of our suffering from us. Rather, He died on the cross so that we do not have to suffer at all, because He suffered completely for us. Purgatory is just a way to try to improve upon what Jesus did on the cross. But Christ’s suffering either atones for all our sins or none of them. He either suffered completely for us, or not at all.

In the Mormon church at one time, a practice called Blood Atonement was very popular. It was built on the premise that Christ’s blood could not blot out **all **of their sins and transgressions. If someone was found to be in the act of sinning, such as committing adultery, driving a stake through both the man and the woman was believed to atone for their sin. Of course, this also killed them. But they were redeemed by their suffering, no matter how brief it was. The idea of purgatory seems somewhat similar. Both doctrines tend to believe that Christ’s sacrifice does not atone for all sins. Therefore, people must suffer to make up the difference.

 

[rod_of_iron]

ktm:

Hi again rod,

Here is a link to some information about Catholic teaching about the intercession of the saints. Again, I think this would help you in better understanding what we Catholics believe on the matter.

As I said in the previous post, if you do have questions after reading this document, be sure to post them on the board here.

ktm

ktm,

I do not see any conclusive evidence to support intercession of dead saints from this link you posted. All of those men that are quoted on that link, besides Hermas, stated what they believed well after Jesus had ascended and the Apostles had died (i.e. after 200 AD). Being Catholic, they would obviously have been biased toward the Catholic church and its practices. But none of their statements are based on firsthand knowledge that Christ and His Apostles prayed to dead saints or taught other to do it. Hermas only speaks of an angel interceding for him, not a dead saint.

I find it interesting that the page you linked me to uses the Book of Revelation to try to prove that dead saints pray to God. In the verses quoted, it does not say that the prayers are from physically dead saints. Also, Revelation is a book which is filled with symbolism, because it was a vision that John had. With the symbolism, there is no way to prove that the “prayers of the saints” mentioned are literally the “prayers of the saints”. They most likely represent something else, as does the rest of the symbolism in Revelation. Since Revelation is symbolic, I can’t accept it as conclusive proof to support the “intercession of saints”.

As for the other material in this article, it tries to prove this “intercession of the saints” by showing where the Bible speaks of angels praying for us. Catholic saints and angels are not synonymous with each other as far as I understand. I have never had a problem with angels praying for us and interceding for us. There are clearly ministering angels. But this is not the same as claiming that these saints are these angels mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

SPOKENWORD:

Saints who gone before us cannot hear our prayers because there ears are in the grave.

Gee, how does the Holy Spirit hear? He has no ears at all!
Perhaps prayers are received, more than “heard.”

Pax Christi. <><

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

SPOKENWORD:

Im christian and I know our bodies will rot in the ground. My soul and spirit will be with my Lord. I also know we will be given new bodies according to His Word. And Yes we will be ALIVE in Christ when we enter into His kingdom.

Holy sin of presumption, Batman!!!