Praying to Mary

[Ricardo_Gomez]

First of all, I would like to apologize for been so rude, but the truth is that some catholics do worship the Virgin Mary over Jesus. That is just a simple fact!
Second, nobody cannot deny it, becuase the practice does exist!
Dec/12 of every year is when any body could find out just how people sacrificie their own bodies just to show their love for the Virgin Mary.
Third, if any body wants to find out more just click www.catholic.org and search for Tony’s Liotta comentary on the subject.

 

[Lazerlike42]

What do people do on Dec. 12 to sacrific their bodies?

I also concur… some Catholics do put Mary over Christ. I don’t know if they actually worship her, but they sure as heck pay too much attention to her.

 

[jediliz]

This is how I explained “praying to Mary” to a net-friend of mine - who is now a convert to the Catholic faith.

Mary is like the order taker at Wendy’s. She takes our prayers/intercessions to the cook, who is GOD. I pray the rosary at the abortion clinic as often as I can get there. Praying directly to GOD does help, but Mary can help speed it up, so to speak.

I hope that explains it a little.

 

[santaro75]

yochumjy:

homer,

Is it wrong to ask someone to pray for you? Is it wrong to ask Mary to pray for us (she is a little bit closer to Jesus than we are). Since we don’t expect Mary to be the instigator of what we are praying for (God is the ultimate instigator), we are still looking for Jesus to be the one mediator.

John

Is there a difference between a mediator and an intercessor. Doesn’t mediator mean that there is a conflict that needs to be resolved. And intercessor is someone that unites with you in a prayer.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Emmaus:

homer,

And just who are all those other mediators? Members of the Body of Christ, in Christ, the one mediator. “For the prayer of a righteous man (or woman in Christ) availeth much.”

A Catholic Answers Tract puts it this way

"One Mediator

Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a meditor. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesites) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator."

catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp

Well said Emmaus;

I would add that the CCC says it quite well too… Mary’s role in no way diminishes Christ’s sacrifice as Homer seems to belief. Instead, Mary’s role shows the power of Christ, who honored His mother - a human being like us - with His own glory.

My Lord and My God, you are an awesome God. You fulfill the commandments more perfectly than any man could, by honoring your mother as you have.

**. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace **

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

511 LG 61.
512 LG 62.
513 LG 60.
514 LG 62.

 

[mercygate]

Lazerlike42:

What do people do on Dec. 12 to sacrific their bodies?

I also concur… some Catholics do put Mary over Christ. I don’t know if they actually worship her, but they sure as heck pay too much attention to her.

Lazer, do not confuse possible abuses with the teaching of the Church. An abuse (if it exists) is just that: an abuse.

Should we condemn sex because there is rape?

 

[Ricardo_Gomez]

For whatever reason the uninformed people does this “ordering” technique, the Vatican does not approve it. In fact, the Vatican has named those practices as hereticals, and against the Catholic’s church teachings. That there is a lot of people uninformed as well as the “practicioners” is just truth.

What we need to do is go and inform this people of the position the Vatican has taken on the subject.

 

[montanaman]

Ricardo Gomez:

First of all, I would like to apologize for been so rude, but the truth is that some catholics do worship the Virgin Mary over Jesus. That is just a simple fact!
Second, nobody cannot deny it, becuase the practice does exist!
Dec/12 of every year is when any body could find out just how people sacrificie their own bodies just to show their love for the Virgin Mary.
Third, if any body wants to find out more just click www.catholic.org and search for Tony’s Liotta comentary on the subject.

31 years a cradle Catholic. I have NEVER seen anyone “put Mary over Jesus.” I think it’s time to start calling the fundies on this one. They all know someone who knows someone who knew a Catholic who worshipped Mary. It’s b.s., of course.

I’ve been getting great responses by throwing it back in their faces. “Why do you bear false witness and put the Bible over Christ?” They sputter and tell you it’s absurd. Keep pushing and watch them squirm in the fires of their own smug condescension…

 

[Ricardo_Gomez]

This is quoted from my dear friend who wrote it

Keep pushing and watch them squirm in the fires of their own smug condescension…

The issue won’t go away by thrwoing some “profetic words.” I wish it could be that easy. Check Dec/12 along with the basilica de Guadalupe in Mexico city, and then get to work!

To work? How? Where?
Simple, just be there in Mexico city by Dec/12, and don’t be afraid talk to the practicioners. Because at least that what I am doing.

 

[Apryl]

homer:

BobCatholic (How else are we to ask Mary to pray for us?) it’s wrong and YOU DON’T NEED to ask Mary to pray for you because there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy: 5). Isn’t Jesus the ONLY mediator good enough for you?

The question was “How else are we to ask Mary to pray for us?”, not if you NEED to ask Mary to pray for us.

So, your comment is out of line.

However, why are you so sure that we don’t NEED to ask Mary to pray for us?

There is no denial that there is but One GOD… (God in three persons). There is no where that any one on this board has suggested that Mary is God, or divine. Mary is not God. Never has been. There is no inkling that any one here believes anything other than she is a wonderful example of devotion and belief in God as GOD.

Perhaps you are unclear: Jesus Christ IS God. So, there is no mediation between God and God, is there?

And we ask Mary for intercessory prayers. That is, we ask Mary to pray for us… just as I’d ask you to pray for me. And as I will pray for you (and those like you that don’t understand God and Love God and His mother)

God is more than good enough for me. One example of His goodness was His giving us His mother as a Blessed example, and also, as one that we can go to for intercessory prayers.

Pax

 

[Apryl]

homer:

Emmaus those people who are asked to pray, are they dead or alive? Do you see someone mentioning the need to pray for dead people?

John 3:16

 

[Scott_Waddell]

YOU DON’T NEED to ask Mary to pray for you because there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy: 5). Isn’t Jesus the ONLY mediator good enough for you?

Ok. One more time. Christ is the one, sole and only mediator…of justice. This in no way excludes other types of mediation like actual graces, strength, comfort, healing, etc.

Scott

 

[tommy4321]

In regards to prayers to saints or through Mary Jesus had this to say: John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.

 

[mercygate]

tommy4321:

In regards to prayers to saints or through Mary Jesus had this to say: John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father exept through me”.

Non sequitur. Seeking the intercession of the saints does not take us to the father through anybody but Jesus.

 

[Lillith]

People who die in Christ are more alive than we are! They have glorified bodies…and are still part of the Church.

If you take the position that people more alive than you are should not pray for you…then maybe you should think about ceasing to ask the less alive (us on Earth) to pray for you also…after all you can go straight to G-d…right?

Why do you feel so cut off from the majority of Humanity who are already where we pray so diligently to be?

 

[allhers]

We honor Mary, the Virgin Mother of Jesus Christ our Lord, we pray with her, we ask her intercession. We know that Jesus Christ is the ONE mediator between God and man, we also know that His Mother is with Him in Glory, she is the only person we know for sure is with Him, body and soul in heaven. Not just soul, but BODY and SOUL. I have a great DEVOTION to her, I will pray and ask her intercession for those of you who do not understand. Try reading the Psalms and Isiah, there are so many references to her, not to mention all through the Bible, but those would be good starts for you that don’t understand. I also have a great devotion to the Holy Rosary, (which is praying the gospels with her.) To God, in Jesus, with the Holy Spirit. If anyone ever had a Holy Spirit it is our dear Blessed Mother. We do not WORSHIP her, we worship only God. Peace be with you.

 

[Orionthehunter]

homer:

UtahMaggie first of all i DON’T ask friends to pray for me, why should I? It doens’t make sense. Do they have more access to God??

Second, when a group of people sit together and pray they are all praying together and not one person praying for another person.

Third, it seems that you didn’t consider the verse that i posted. There is only ONE mediator that is Jesus Christ. Come on people why do we need other mediators?

We had the ultimate gift given to us for free! Jesus Christ came and died for us. When you say that we need other mediators it’s like saying that the work done by Jesus isn’t good enough and we still need human beings to make a link between us and God.

I think that Emmaus did a great job as did so many, expecially in their references to the community of saints. Unfortunately, it very obvious that Homer has no concept of the community of saints (people of God in the Past, Present, and Future). He who abides in Jesus and Jesus abides in him (paraphrase of Scripture) unites the entire community as if we have the Infinite in each of us we are all bound together in Him.

This is very unfortunate as it shows a lack of understanding of God is all His infinite Glory and Majesty, how time doesn’t apply to Him but a constrict on here on earth now (God appears at the beginning and end of time simultaneously. For God, everything that will happen has already happened).

But I digress from the matter at hand. While Homer may feel no need to call on his fellow people of God, it is certainly not Biblical as the Paul and the other letter writers numerously asked their fellow Christians to pray for them. If Paul needs someone to pray for him, I’ll be darned if I’ll be so self-confident to think that I don’t need others to pray for me.

To understand prayers with and to Mary, it is critical to to have an understanding of the Catholic teaching on the community of Saints. From that you will understand that there is no difference asking a Saint (like maybe my deceased Grandpa) or my living Grandma to pray for me.

Second, when reading your posts you seem to mistakenly think that because prayer is a form of worship that all prayer is worship. While prayer to God is most often for me worship, other forms of prayer may not be worship. You have contempletive prayer, petition prayer, thankgiving prayer in addition to worship prayer.

But maybe a story helps. My dog was old and failing. While my kids were exhorting me not to put the dog to sleep, my mind told me that the best thing was to do so. In my confusion, I took it to prayer and began to reflect on St. Francis, the patron saint for animals. Anyway, during my prayer, I began to reflect on my farmer/rancher Grandpa who loved animals. I can still vividly recall the love and care exhibited when he dealt w/ a sick or injured cow or calf. My mind then drifted to a situation that happened when I was about 8 years old. His own horse had gotten out of the pasture and into what he called the boneyard- a place where metal junk and old equipment was left to rust until he maybe needed a part or piece of steel for another purpose. When we came upon the horse, it was laying down, leg bleeding badly and tangled in barbed wire.

Grandpa looked at the horse for a bit and took me about a half mile over the hill, let me out, and asked me to walk to the farmhouse and be with Grandma. I started walking while Grandpa went back to “rescue” Smokey. Within a minute, I heard a gunshot and sat down waiting for Grandpa to return so I could express my “anger/disappointment” in him. But when he came back, I saw the pain and tears in his eyes and my anger disappeared and I gained understanding for what he did and compassion for him. This prayer time gave me an understanding on how to handle the situation with our dog and my daughters. And after Bo was put to sleep and we had returned home I thanked God and my Grandpa (a Saint) for helping me through this. God used my Grandpa to guide me.

This is the result of many prayers/reflections involving the Saints. We have concrete acts and lives that give us an insight into what God wants for us. Your misperception is that you confuse these types of prayers as worship which is untrue.

 

[Nicci]

This is something that I don’t have a clear understanding of… Forgive me but my understanding of the catholic religion/faith needs to be renewed and I will be working on it real soon… My FIL & MIL-to-be are baptist and I know everyone knows that baptists think we worship mother mary and other saints (refer to my thread)… When praying to mother mary or any other saints, is praying to them considered worshipping? Why do baptists have such a problem with catholics praying to her and other saints? I don’t see anything wrong with it, it doesn’t mean I honor them/her before GOD… I honestly never heard of anyone honoring Mother Mary or other Saints before GOD…

 

[Nan_S]

Nicci:

My FIL & MIL-to-be are baptist and I know everyone knows that baptists think we worship mother mary and other saints (refer to my thread)… When praying to mother mary or any other saints, is praying to them considered worshipping? Why do baptists have such a problem with catholics praying to her and other saints?

Hi Nicci,

Here’s what is going on: your MIL-2-B is putting words into your mouth, and then condemning you for them!!! Don’t let her!!!

In the British English, “worship” means “to give honor and respect.” While American judges are addressed as “Your Honor,” British judges are addressed as “Your Worship.” That does NOT mean the British think their judges are gods, however. (I qualify that - there are always a few criminals who seem to act like judges are gods. )

The problem originated because the English language, many years ago, translated several different Greek words as “worship,” which was perfectly proper back then. People speaking what we now call Middle English defined “worship” rather broadly as “worthiness or honor” and NOT simply prayer to God.

Nowadays, we Americans (but not the British) have a much narrower definition of “worship.” When we want to mean “show profound respect, worthiness and honor” we use the word “venerate” instead.

***LATRIA ***means divine worship given to God alone
DULIA is a theological term signifying the honour paid to the saints
HYPERDULIA is the veneration (reverence and respect) offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary

For a better explanation click HERE

Hope this helps. Once again, do not let MIL-2-B re-define the Catholic Church the way she wants and then condemn you for it.

Nan

 

[mercygate]

Nicci:

This is something that I don’t have a clear understanding of… Forgive me but my understanding of the catholic religion/faith needs to be renewed and I will be working on it real soon… My FIL & MIL-to-be are baptist and I know everyone knows that baptists think we worship mother mary and other saints (refer to my thread)… When praying to mother mary or any other saints, is praying to them considered worshipping? Why do baptists have such a problem with catholics praying to her and other saints? I don’t see anything wrong with it, it doesn’t mean I honor them/her before GOD… I honestly never heard of anyone honoring Mother Mary or other Saints before GOD…

Another problem with the Baptist perception is that when they go to church to “worship”, they read the Bible, preach about the Bible, sing hymns, pray to God. Catholics do all of that, too, but for us the culmination of worship is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. For us, worship requires sacrifice.

Now, if you present this case to your in-laws, they will jump all over you because they will say Catholics re-sacrifice Jesus in the Mass. But we do not. The Sacrifice of the Mass participates in the once-for-all Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. We enter into that very sacrifice. It is all related to the Resurrection.

The best thing for you to do might be to back away when you hear your in-laws telling you what Catholicism teaches and say something like:

“I know I should be better informed about my faith, but I never heard anything like what you are saying here. I think for both of our sakes, I should go and find out what I ought to have learned in seventh grade!”

That way, you’ll be charmingly self-deprecating, you will show that you are entertaining what they say seriously, and you will let them know that you want to be responsible for what you learn and that you are not just going to swallow eveything they throw at you.

The possible outcomes of this approach are:

They may think you’re stubborn and write you off.
They may respect your non-confrontational self-possession.
They may be disarmed by your humility.
They may gain respect for your honesty.
They may gain respect for your sense of responsibility.