Praying to saints.

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It would not matter if Jesus came to you in person and sat down with you at a table and explained all the false doctrines of the catholic church, you would still not believe.

You continue to deny the truth that the catholic church is full of false doctrines, because your confidence is in the catholic church. Your confidence should be in God.

I could write truth upon truth and you will still not believe. This is not worth my time, because no matter what you will not admit the false doctrines of the catholic church.
 
cs80918 said:
If something is not in the Bible then how can you prove that it is true?
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That’s what I’m asking you. You said, A doctrine has to be in the Bible for it to be true. Where did you get that idea? Where in the Bible?
 
MarkThompson said:
Fair enough, but I was thinking with specific reference to the New Testament. For instance, how is it that Acts is in the Bible and Hermas isn’t, or that the Gospel of Mark is but the Gospel of Thomas isn’t? They were all floating around, and there were people who believed all f them to be canonical. It took the Church to define the canon, including some and excluding others.
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I say something similar to this quite often;

We know Paul wrote two letters to the church at Corinth. We also have historical documents that show Clement wrote one as well.

cs80918, why are Paul’s letters in the Bible but Clement’s aren’t?

Also, you never responded to my post about Revelations 5 and Prince Michael.
 
Hebrews 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a **cloud of witnesses **over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Thes 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you;

Ephesians 6:18 By all **prayer and supplication **praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:

Tobias 12:12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night,** I offered thy prayer to the Lord.**
 
cs80918 said:
It would not matter if Jesus came to you in person and sat down with you at a table and explained all the false doctrines of the catholic church, you would still not believe.

You continue to deny the truth that the catholic church is full of false doctrines, because your confidence is in the catholic church. Your confidence should be in God.

I could write truth upon truth and you will still not believe. This is not worth my time, because no matter what you will not admit the false doctrines of the catholic church.
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See, this is really a load of garbage.

My faith is in the Catholic Church because it is inspired by God. Faith in the Church is equal to faith in God. The ridiculous and insulting comment that, “It would not matter if Jesus sat down with you at a table and explained all the false doctrines of the catholic church” because we still wouldn’t believe is laughable.

You have given us absolutely no evidence-none-that would make us believe your point of view. You’ve asked us to explain our POV. We have, and instead of debating us properly (or conceding the point, though I’m sure that even if Jesus came down and himself and told you the truth of the Catholic Church you wouldn’t believe it :rolleyes:) you got all annoyed that we weren’t crumbling under your oh-so superior logic and have decided that it is “not worth your time” to debate.

Well, fine. It wasn’t worth your time; you wouldn’t have won the debate anyway because we have the Truth, given to us by God, on our side.
 
I like the verse from Hebrews, paramedicgirl.

Although in the long run, I think we’ve been trolled.
 
CatholicGuy22 said:
Yes on discipline but not faith and morals and if they are people with differences in that category in the church they are heretics
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Well I personally know some catholics that do not view homosexuality as a sin. They must be heretics.
 
cs80918 said:
Well I personally know some catholics that do not view homosexuality as a sin. They must be heretics.
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Yes.

Oh, you’ve decided we’re worth your time after all?

EDIT: Clarification: Homosexuality is not a sin. Having a homosexual relationship, or having homosexual sex, is a sin,
 
Melchior said:
Revelation 5, Verse 7;

“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

First, you are correct that “lower-case” saints (the small “s”) can be on Earth. In this passage from the NIV, we see the Elders lifting up the prayers of these “saints” to the Lamb. It was established earlier in Revelation (Chapter 4) that these Elders, the 24, surround the Throne in Heaven, which means they are “dead” in an earthly sense.

**These Elders, who are in Heaven, take the prayers of the faithful on Earth to the Lamb (Jesus). **Although the word “Saint” is not used to describe the Elders, it does show that intercessory prayer to those in Heaven does have a Scriptural foundation within the New Testament.

EDIT:

The Book of Daniel refers to a “prince”, and he wasn’t talking about Jesus. In Daniel 10 it is said “20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince”.

After that in Daniel 12 it goes on to say “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise”.

Michael, a prince, protects God’s people. This does not change after Jesus comes as we look at the Book of Revelation (Chapter 12); “ 7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”

I love these passages because it shows that we, as Christians, are never alone when it comes to Spiritual Warfare. Both the Book of Revelation and the Book of Daniel clearly shows that Jesus Christ empowered Michael the Archangel to take care of business as required as the leader of God’s Army. And the end result is obvious; victory for the Lamb of God. Most icons that display Saint Michael show him with a huge sword, and more often than not laying down the law like this;

http://vivirlatino.com/i/2008/09/archangel-michael.jpg

*(Please note that the fellow with wings, who does not need to touch the ground with his feet, is clearly stepping on Satan’s FACE).
*
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Holding a bowl full of prayers is not the same thing as praying to God. Holding a bowl is not praying.

Now if that verse would of said Each one had a harp **and they were praying to God for intercession of the saints who were on earth.

Then I would have to believe you, but it does not say that.**
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Yes.

Oh, you’ve decided we’re worth your time after all?

EDIT: Clarification: Homosexuality is not a sin. Having a homosexual relationship, or having homosexual sex, is a sin,
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He somewhat is. He’s harping on you guys while ignoring those of us who have refuted his claims using Scripture.
 
Yes there is an angel called Michael the Archangel, but it does not say he was praying to God as an intercessor for the saints on earth. He was in a battle. All Christians should know that we wrestle not against flesh and blood.
 
cs80918 said:
Holding a bowl full of prayers is not the same thing as praying to God. Holding a bowl is not praying.

Now if that verse would of said Each one had a harp **and they were praying to God for intercession of the saints who were on earth.

Then I would have to believe you, but it does not say that.**

Sounds like you want to rewrite the bible to suit yourself. I’m just saying…
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The bowl is full of prayers. What on Earth are they for if not praying?
 
cs80918 said:
Holding a bowl full of prayers is not the same thing as praying to God. Holding a bowl is not praying.

Now if that verse would of said Each one had a harp **and they were praying to God for intercession of the saints who were on earth.

Then I would have to believe you, but it does not say that.**

Wait…so you mean to tell me that these Elders, who obviously are great Christians as they have a position right beside Lamb, are just going to sit there and do NOTHING with these prayers? That the prayers of the saints will not go to God? Explain to me how these Elders are not thrown from the Heavens.

Actually, explain to me why they are holding onto those prayers in the first place, because apparently there should be no one between us and Christ Jesus, yes?

Oh, and you completely missed my part about Prince Michael, who leads God’s army.
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Marc_Anthony said:
Only if you tell me where in the Bible it prohibits prayer to Saints in Heaven. I am merely following what the Bible says to its logical conclusion.
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Saul reaching out to Samuel in the bible when Samuel had departed this earth.

I don’t even understand why you would want to ask a saint in heaven to pray for you. You can pray directly to God.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
How can you prove that the Bible is true?

We accept the Bible is true because we believe that everything written in it is divinely inspired.

We accept that Sacred Tradition is true because we believe that those teachings are divinely inspired.
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Hmmm, I just heard a catholic say that only the bible was divinely inspired, now you say the Sacred Tradition was divinely insprired.
 
cs80918 said:
Saul reaching out to Samuel in the bible when Samuel had departed this earth.

I don’t even understand why you would want to ask a saint in heaven to pray for you. You can pray directly to God.
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You have so much to learn! Stick around a while. 🙂
 
cs80918 said:
Saul reaching out to Samuel in the bible when Samuel had departed this earth.

I don’t even understand why you would want to ask a saint in heaven to pray for you. You can pray directly to God.
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What are the exact verses?
 
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