Praying to the dead - not Saints

[mtr01]

Catholic4aReasn:

Nope. We’re talking about asking someone to pray FOR you. That’s what “pray to” means in the context of our brothers and sisters in heaven. To “pray to” someone alive with Christ in heaven is fundamentally and essentially different from “praying to” God. Same words, different meaning. I have no problem with your disagreeing with asking those in heaven for prayer. The trouble comes when you mistakenly confuse it with prayer to God, which is an entirely different thing. In that case, you’re disagreeing with something the Church doesn’t even teach.

In Christ,
Nancy

Hi Nancy, I agree with your comments about focusing on the nuances of the word “prayer”. In this case, with Yaqubos, there are two problems. First, he seems to see prayer as synonymous with worship. Unfortunately there are nuances with that word as well. In my opinion, he either is unaware of, or ignores the concepts of *latria, dulia and hyper-dulia. *I would suggest he look up these terms (especially in the Cotholic Encyclopedia) to see what the Church actually teaches.

Second, he (she?) obstinately maintains that the saints in Heaven are not alive in Christ, but dead. Unfortunately this logically assumes that if Jesus is the vine, we are simply cut off from it when we die. Or that somehow we are amputated from the mystical body of Christ at our physical death. Unfortunately this is a very anti-biblical position to hold, but as long as it is held no discussion of what it means to pray or worship will make any difference.

Finally (as a bit of a rant on my part - and not directed at your comments), I don’t think it does any good to try to “dumb down” Catholic beliefs in order to make them more acceptable to non-Catholics. I have no problems at all in proclaiming that I pray to Mary. I pray to her not only to ask for her intercession, but also to thank her for those intercessions, and also to show my love to her as my spiritual mother. The latter two forms of prayer are not asking for her prayers. If I ask a Saint to pray for me, I also thank him or her for the prayers. There is absolutely wrong with praying to a Saint and having a “conversation” with them (with a deceased relative too, for that matter) as long as the concepts of latria, dulia, and hyper-dulia are understood, and one correctly believes they are alive in Christ.

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

My friend, it seems that you are reading what you SUPPOSE is 1 Samuel 15. Just take the time to open 1 Samuel 15, and read it, and you will see that it is not about Saul asking for information…

Yes, pray THEE, and not TO THEE.

So if you accept that you cannot pray TO dead people, now we need to know how you can pray/ask a dead. How does the Bible say you can talk to a dead?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Through the Holy Spirit who is God, Deuteronomy does not say what you think it says.

 

[Psalm45_9]

I’m sorry I thought that you were refering to 1 Samuel 28:3-20, that is what Deuteronomy 18:10-11 is talking about.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Through the Holy Spirit who is God

Ok. Now just give me the verse or the passage where God is telling you about this. Where is God telling you that you can talk to the dead through the Holy Spirit who is God?

And by the way: if there is such a passage in the Bible, can’t we say that we can pray to living saints too? I mean, can’t we pray to Christians in China?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[MikeB]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

You see how much you underestimate Scripture? Who made you believe that any human has authority or can add anything to the Bible??? God is the Lord of His Word, and no one can change it. People can change it for themselves, believing false teachings. But no one can touch to the Word. Don’t try it! But even if you try, you will fail! Many tried before you.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
My point was not to say that we could add to the Scriptures. My point was to point out that if unscrupulous early Church Fathers wanted to “create” false doctrine then they could have gone to the trouble to “create” false letters. Since St. Paul had not gone to Kinko’s and asked for copies to be made of the original lettters he wrote then anything could have been added to then. They didn’t have to since the practice of asking for intercession from the saints had been in practice since the early days of the Church.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

And remember:

“**Whom ** have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.” ( Psalm 73:25 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

mtr01:

Second, he (she?) obstinately maintains that the saints in Heaven are not alive in Christ, but dead.

I ( he ) obstinately maintain that the saints in Heaven are NOT dead FOR GOD, but they are no longer on earth with us, so they are DEAD FOR US.

mtr01:

Unfortunately this logically assumes that if Jesus is the vine, we are simply cut off from it when we die. Or that somehow we are amputated from the mystical body of Christ at our physical death. Unfortunately this is a very anti-biblical position to hold, but as long as it is held no discussion of what it means to pray or worship will make any difference.

My friend, You are now NOT cut off from the Vine ( if indeed you are born again ), but no one can pray to you.

mtr01:

Finally (as a bit of a rant on my part - and not directed at your comments), I don’t think it does any good to try to “dumb down” Catholic beliefs in order to make them more acceptable to non-Catholics. I have no problems at all in proclaiming that I pray to Mary. I pray to her not only to ask for her intercession, but also to thank her for those intercessions, and also to show my love to her as my spiritual mother. The latter two forms of prayer are not asking for her prayers. If I ask a Saint to pray for me, I also thank him or her for the prayers. There is absolutely wrong with praying to a Saint and having a “conversation” with them (with a deceased relative too, for that matter) as long as the concepts of latria, dulia, and hyper-dulia are understood, and one correctly believes they are alive in Christ.

As long as we want to do the Will of God and nothing else, we cannot talk to anyone in prayer but God.

By the way: what mtr01 says here reminded me of something I read on the building of a local church related to the Roman church. It says: “Oh mother of God, save us!”

What do you think about it?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Black_Jaque]

Yes, pray THEE, and not TO THEE.

Semantics, semantics, semantics. OK then Yaqubos, Catholics pray the saints, we don’t pray to the saints. Frankly, I think just about any other english speaking person would understand it.

Ok. Now just give me the verse or the passage where God is telling you about this. Where is God telling you that you can talk to the dead through the Holy Spirit who is God?

At the end of the Gospel of John. Theres a verse in there, some kind of admission that these were only a few of the things Jesus said and did. Meaning that there is more to it than just the Bible… perhaps … Sacred Tradition???

And by the way: if there is such a passage in the Bible, can’t we say that we can pray to living saints too? I mean, can’t we pray to Christians in China?

Of course not, we can only pray to God remember? But we certainly can pray the Christians in China. Of course, God will probably require that you pick up the phone, write a letter, or send an email to the Christians in China. For those Saints that are with Him in Heaven, God presumably allow them to hear our prayers in the same way God hears our prayers. Remember those Saints are united with God, as in communion with Him, as in His will is their will, they see what He sees, they desire what He desires.

On the other hand, you CAN pray people in China without phone or letter. Just do it. Maybe God will wire it over, maybe he won’t. But it certainly won’t be a sin.

Please, pray for me.

 

[Luke1_48]

We don’t worship them, we ask them to pray for us! You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. :tsktsk:

 

[Luke1_48]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Ok. Now just give me the verse or the passage where God is telling you about this. Where is God telling you that you can talk to the dead through the Holy Spirit who is God?

And by the way: if there is such a passage in the Bible, can’t we say that we can pray to living saints too? I mean, can’t we pray to Christians in China?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

:banghead:

 

[Therese_Martin]

**Notice:

The thread is now closed; thanks to all who participated in the discussion.**