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Psalm45_9
Guest
But how do you know this is scripture?
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Psalm45_9
Guest
You have yet to tell us how you know that is what God Says. Did that fall from the sky?
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Psalm45_9
Guest
So why is it that every Protestant church permits the use of contraception? There crutch is that the Bible is silent on the mater.
We do not talk to the dead, there is only one body in Christ. All who believe are alive. It does not say anywhere in the Bible that you can not ask the Living Saints in Heaven to pray for you. But how do you know what you quote is scripture.
Sigh, “Ring around the rosey.”
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Psalm45_9
Guest
Psalm45:9:
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
He converses with angels and saints. This is what Scripture says. You can believe that Revelation is make believe if you wish, but I do not. I believe John was truly on the Island of Patmos when he was caught up in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day. I too am caught up in the Spirit when in prayer to my God. Aren’t you? If not, then perhaps you aren’t in the right religion.
I see angels and saints and Jesus and Mary in my prayers. I do indeed have a vision of them. Angels do not need to be omniscient to be aware of what is going on in the four corners of the earth, according to the vision given to John the Apostles. Likewise, the multitude of souls in heaven under the altar know what is going on in the world. The souls are from EVERY NATION, from EVERY TONGUE, so many none could count. Notice that these multitudes of angels and saints populate the city of God BEFORE the day of final judgement. They don’t need omniscience because God is omnipotent. Aren’t you aware that Christ is the vine between the branches? Scripture tells us all these things, for those with the faith to believe it.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
We are not calling the dead, so no arguments there. I presume that your interpretation is no more infallible than mine. What I read in the Bible is that God does not want us to conjure up spirits of the dead so as to seek information apart from the revelation of God already given. Saul tried that. He went to a witch to conjure up the spirit of Samuel. Nonetheless, God allowed the spirit of Samuel to speak truthfully to Saul. It was the same message given to Saul earlier regarding his disobedience to God.
This is far from Christian prayer. Catholics do not conjure up spirits. This is prohibited. Instead, Catholics ask the heavenly angels and the “spirits of the just made perfect” that are present with God in heaven to pray for us (without every conjuring them up). It’s no different than the Psalmist invoking the heavenly angels and all God’s heavenly ministers to bless the Lord. In fact, the Psalmist invokes all of God creation to prayer. I too am permitted by Scripture to do so. I don’t presume the Psalmist needed to physically see all the heavenly angels and heavenly hosts to invoke them in prayer. Neither do I. I see them spiritually (not physically) in prayer, especially when I contemplate the vision of heaven given to St. John the Apostle who indeed converses with angels and saints. The Psalmist spoke to the angels and heavenly hosts directly without conjuring up any spirits. God has told us through the Book of Revelation that these angels and saints while in heaven are aware of what is happening in the four corners of the world. I trust that is correct and ask any and all Christians, whether in heaven or not, to pray for me.
You have yet to provide Biblical support that this is a sin, as you have asserted. Strangely ironic for a Bible only Christian.
Seems more like you are adding something to Scritpure. It seem that you are giving us your version of “traditions of men” as this assertion of yours existed nowhere in the first millenium of Christianity. Either the first millenium of Christian teaching was incorrect or you are incorrect. I think the latter is much more likely.
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mayra_hart
Guest
**Whether the dead can be assisted by the works of the living?
Objection 1. It would seem that the dead cannot be assisted by the works of the living. First, because the Apostle says (2 Cor. 5:10): “We must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done.” Therefore nothing can accrue to a man from the works of others, which are done after his death and when he is no longer in the body.
Objection 2. Further, this also seems to follow from the words of Apoc. 14:13, “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord . . . for their works follow them.”
Objection 3. Further, it belongs only to one who is on the way to advance on account of some deed. Now after death men are no longer wayfarers, because to them the words of Job 19:8, refer: “He hath hedged in my path round about, and I cannot pass.” Therefore the dead cannot be assisted by a person’s suffrages.
Objection 4. Further, no one is assisted by the deed of another, unless there be some community of life between them. Now there is no community between the dead and the living, as the Philosopher says (Ethic. i, 11). Therefore the suffrages of the living do not profit the dead.
On the contrary are the words of 2 Macc. 12:46: “It is . . . a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins.” But this would not be profitable unless it were a help to them. Therefore the suffrages of the living profit the dead. Further, Augustine says (De Cure pro Mort. i): “Of no small weight is the authority of the Church whereby she clearly approves of the custom whereby a commendation of the dead has a place in the prayers which the priests pour forth to the Lord God at His altar.” This custom was established by the apostles themselves according to the Damascene in a sermon on suffrages for the dead [De his qui in fide dormierunt, 3, where he expresses himself thus: “Realizing the nature of the Mysteries the disciples of the Saviour and http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm”]His holy apostles** sanctioned a commemoration of those who had died in the faith, being made in the awe-inspiring and life-giving Mysteries.” This is also confirmed by the authority of Dionysius (Hier. Eccl.), where he mentions the rite of the Early Church in praying for the dead, and, moreover, asserts that the suffrages of the living profit the dead. Therefore we must believe this without any doubt.
Objection 1. It would seem that the dead cannot be assisted by the works of the living. First, because the Apostle says (2 Cor. 5:10): “We must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done.” Therefore nothing can accrue to a man from the works of others, which are done after his death and when he is no longer in the body.
Objection 2. Further, this also seems to follow from the words of Apoc. 14:13, “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord . . . for their works follow them.”
Objection 3. Further, it belongs only to one who is on the way to advance on account of some deed. Now after death men are no longer wayfarers, because to them the words of Job 19:8, refer: “He hath hedged in my path round about, and I cannot pass.” Therefore the dead cannot be assisted by a person’s suffrages.
Objection 4. Further, no one is assisted by the deed of another, unless there be some community of life between them. Now there is no community between the dead and the living, as the Philosopher says (Ethic. i, 11). Therefore the suffrages of the living do not profit the dead.
On the contrary are the words of 2 Macc. 12:46: “It is . . . a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins.” But this would not be profitable unless it were a help to them. Therefore the suffrages of the living profit the dead. Further, Augustine says (De Cure pro Mort. i): “Of no small weight is the authority of the Church whereby she clearly approves of the custom whereby a commendation of the dead has a place in the prayers which the priests pour forth to the Lord God at His altar.” This custom was established by the apostles themselves according to the Damascene in a sermon on suffrages for the dead [De his qui in fide dormierunt, 3, where he expresses himself thus: “Realizing the nature of the Mysteries the disciples of the Saviour and http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm”]His holy apostles** sanctioned a commemoration of those who had died in the faith, being made in the awe-inspiring and life-giving Mysteries.” This is also confirmed by the authority of Dionysius (Hier. Eccl.), where he mentions the rite of the Early Church in praying for the dead, and, moreover, asserts that the suffrages of the living profit the dead. Therefore we must believe this without any doubt.
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mayra_hart
Guest
answer that, Charity, which is the bond uniting the members of the Church, extends not only to the living, but also to the dead who die in charity. For charity which is the life of the soul, even as the soul is the life of the body, has no end: “Charity never falleth away” (1 Cor. 13:8). Moreover, the dead live in the memory of the living: wherefore the intention of the living can be directed to them. Hence the suffrages of the living profit the dead in two ways even as they profit the living, both on account of the bond of charity and on account of the intention being directed to them. Nevertheless, we must not believe that the suffrages of the living profit them so as to change their state from unhappiness to happiness or “vice versa”; but they avail for the diminution of punishment or something of the kind that involves no change in the state of the dead.
Reply to Objection 1. Man while living in the body merited that such things should avail him after death. Wherefore if he is assisted thereby after this life, this is, nevertheless, the result of the things he has done in the body. Or we may reply, according to John Damascene, in the sermon quoted above, that these words refer to the retribution which will be made at the final judgment, of eternal glory or eternal unhappiness: for then each one will receive only according as he himself has done in the body. Meanwhile, however, he can be assisted by the suffrages of the living.
Reply to Objection 2. The words quoted refer expressly to the sequel of eternal retribution as is clear from the opening words: “Blessed are the dead,” etc. Or we may reply that deeds done on their behalf are somewhat their own, as stated above.
Reply to Objection 3. Although, strictly speaking, after death souls are not in the state of the way, yet in a certain respect they are still on the way, in so far as they are delayed awhile in their advance towards their final award. Wherefore, strictly speaking, their way is hedged in round about, so that they can no more be changed by any works in respect of the state of happiness or unhappiness. Yet their way is not so hedged around that they cannot be helped by others in the matter of their being delayed from receiving their final award, because in this respect they are still wayfarers. Reply to Objection 4. Although the communion of civic deeds whereof the Philosopher speaks, is impossible between the dead and the living, because the dead are outside civic life, the communication of the spiritual life is possible between them, for that life is founded on charity towards God, to Whom the spirits of the dead live.
Reply to Objection 1. Man while living in the body merited that such things should avail him after death. Wherefore if he is assisted thereby after this life, this is, nevertheless, the result of the things he has done in the body. Or we may reply, according to John Damascene, in the sermon quoted above, that these words refer to the retribution which will be made at the final judgment, of eternal glory or eternal unhappiness: for then each one will receive only according as he himself has done in the body. Meanwhile, however, he can be assisted by the suffrages of the living.
Reply to Objection 2. The words quoted refer expressly to the sequel of eternal retribution as is clear from the opening words: “Blessed are the dead,” etc. Or we may reply that deeds done on their behalf are somewhat their own, as stated above.
Reply to Objection 3. Although, strictly speaking, after death souls are not in the state of the way, yet in a certain respect they are still on the way, in so far as they are delayed awhile in their advance towards their final award. Wherefore, strictly speaking, their way is hedged in round about, so that they can no more be changed by any works in respect of the state of happiness or unhappiness. Yet their way is not so hedged around that they cannot be helped by others in the matter of their being delayed from receiving their final award, because in this respect they are still wayfarers. Reply to Objection 4. Although the communion of civic deeds whereof the Philosopher speaks, is impossible between the dead and the living, because the dead are outside civic life, the communication of the spiritual life is possible between them, for that life is founded on charity towards God, to Whom the spirits of the dead live.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
YAQUBOS
It seems you want us to accept your Bible commentary as truthful, while rejecting the Bible commentary universally accepted and taught by Christianity of the first 1500 years. You will have to be more convincing. We can’t just take your word for it. St. Paul teaches that we are to hold fast to the traditions, both oral and written, passed on to us by them. We must stick with that instruction and not abandon it for the novel commentary you give us.
Heb 13:17 charges us to obedience to our superiors placed in the care of our souls. Protestants (and yes you are among them) simply ignored this passage and declared they no longer need to submit to their superiors. This is the sin of Korah rebellion all over again, which the Epistle of Jude warns against.
If you want to convince us that requesting the intercessory prayers of the angels and saints in heaven is sinful, you will have to quote from Scripture which explicitly states this. If you cannot, then where did you get such an idea? I doubt you made it up yourself, but instead learned it as part of your own unique tradition.
If we are to accept that this tradition has its source in apostolic tradition, you will have to show how our early Church Fathers also held to this teaching. The early Fathers, many of whom were holy martyrs of Christianity, were indeed our superiors in the context of Heb 13:17. Did they teach as you teach regarding apostolic teaching? If not, I have to agree with those closer to the fountain of truth than your Protestant reformers.
It seems you want us to accept your Bible commentary as truthful, while rejecting the Bible commentary universally accepted and taught by Christianity of the first 1500 years. You will have to be more convincing. We can’t just take your word for it. St. Paul teaches that we are to hold fast to the traditions, both oral and written, passed on to us by them. We must stick with that instruction and not abandon it for the novel commentary you give us.
Heb 13:17 charges us to obedience to our superiors placed in the care of our souls. Protestants (and yes you are among them) simply ignored this passage and declared they no longer need to submit to their superiors. This is the sin of Korah rebellion all over again, which the Epistle of Jude warns against.
If you want to convince us that requesting the intercessory prayers of the angels and saints in heaven is sinful, you will have to quote from Scripture which explicitly states this. If you cannot, then where did you get such an idea? I doubt you made it up yourself, but instead learned it as part of your own unique tradition.
If we are to accept that this tradition has its source in apostolic tradition, you will have to show how our early Church Fathers also held to this teaching. The early Fathers, many of whom were holy martyrs of Christianity, were indeed our superiors in the context of Heb 13:17. Did they teach as you teach regarding apostolic teaching? If not, I have to agree with those closer to the fountain of truth than your Protestant reformers.
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
I think that people who condemn the practice of praying to Saints either:
Nancy
- think it’s something that it isn’t (I think the majority fall into this catagory)
- reject it simply because it’s a Catholic practice
Nancy
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YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:
Psalm45:9:
Psalm45:9:
Yet, you don’t pray to your friend who may be in China. But you send him an E-mail…
And the human philosophy continues…
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Psalm45:9:
This is like saying: “Why my brother is sinning? So I will sin, too”…
Psalm45:9:
If you don’t do this, so why are you arguing so much here?
Psalm45:9:
This is like saying: “there is only one body in Christ. All who believe are alive. It does not say anywhere in the Bible that you can not ask those who live in China in prayer to pray for you”.
Yet, you don’t pray to your friend who may be in China. But you send him an E-mail…
And the human philosophy continues…
In Love,
Yaqubos†
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YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
So we just read human philosophy, and still no answer to the question: how can you talk to DEAD people?
Those dead people are not everywhere like God.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
So we just read human philosophy, and still no answer to the question: how can you talk to DEAD people?
Those dead people are not everywhere like God.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
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Psalm45_9
Guest
Pax Vobiscvm!
You are still not answering my question, how do you know what is scripture? Your philosophy about talking to dead people is the human one. We are not seperated from members of the church, they are alive in Christ’s one body. You deny the Holy Spirit.
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YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Psalm45:9:
To show how this is human philosophy, I say ( in your language ): you deny the Holy Spirit, because you don’t pray to people in China.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
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Psalm45_9
Guest
Pax Vobiscvm!
YAQUBOS:
YAQUBOS:
YAQUBOS:
Agreed! Pray for us!
YAQUBOS:
YAQUBOS, can you please tell me what time it is in China now? (I just prayed to you, via the internet)
Psalm45:9, “How do you know what is scripture and what is not?”
YAQUBOS, “…”
YAQUBOS:
I hope then that you are not comiting this sin against the natural law, like these other “Bible believing Christians”
Do you like being called a pagan? The Saints are not dead, they are alive in Christ.
China in prayer to pray for you".
Agreed! Pray for us!
China. But you send him an E-mail…
YAQUBOS, can you please tell me what time it is in China now? (I just prayed to you, via the internet)
Psalm45:9, “How do you know what is scripture and what is not?”
YAQUBOS, “…”
In love, Psalm45:9
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YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Psalm45:9:
Say it without wrighting it here, and let’s see if anyone will hear it.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
B
bones_IV
Guest
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Yaqubos,
Your mixing up what is permitted with what is binding. It is permitted to ask all of God’s creation for their prayers. If my brother is in China, I may prayerfully ask him for my prayers. However, I am not bound to. It is not binding that I ask others to pray for me. It is permitted to do so without any risk of sin, however. You have not proved otherwise. You have merely shared your own human philosophy and fallible Bible commentary.
The difference that you fail to address is that Revelation shows us that those in heaven have knowledge of those things happening on earth without having to physically be present at every location upon earth. Those in heaven have a perfection greater than those on earth, according to St. Paul.
Give the Scripture chapter and verse where asking a person in China to pray for me is a sin, or asking a Christian in heaven to pray for me is a sin, and you’ll have something more than your own human philosophy to share with us.
P
Psalm45_9
Guest
I said it, “If today you hear his voice, harden not your heart.”
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Psalm45_9
Guest
Pax Vobiscvm!
What scripture says about the Holy Spirit:
“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.” (Acts 2:4-11)
(It allows us to preach the gospel to all nations, in their native tounge.)
“Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.” (Acts 8:29)
(It guides us on our pilgrimage to Heaven)
“The Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.” (Acts 8:40)
(It can cause people to disappear and reappears someplace else)
“The Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” (Acts 19:6)
(It can cause us to prophesies)
It all comes down to that the Holy Spirit is God, and God has no limits. I don’t see how it cannot allow me to ask the Saints in Heaven to intercede. You deny God, and his word.
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