Praying to the dead - not Saints

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm!

“Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.”

Psalm 73:25

Indeed they desire nothing on Earth, ex: food, water, money, clothing. But it does not mean they do not desire the entire church to be with them. Do not take this passage out of context. How do you know that passage is scripture?

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm!

Thank you for that wonderful analysis. Indeed, it is the whole church (the communion of Saints). I see that they are offering up our prayers. I do not see how it is symbolic. The Communion of Saints (The Church in Heaven) are offering up our prayers, I can’t see it as only a symbol, but a reality.

"Clement of Alexandria

“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (*Miscellanies *7:12 [A.D. 208])." (Keating, 2004)

History seems to show that too.

Work Cited

Keating, Karl; Catholic Answers, The Intercession of the Saints
2020 Gillespie Way, El Cajon, CA 92020 USA
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

Yet, we don’t see anything about living saints talking to dead saints. We see them all talking to God.

Still no answer to the question: how can you talk to dead saints?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm!

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Yet, we don’t see anything about living saints talking to dead saints. We see them all talking to God.

Still no answer to the question: how can you talk to dead saints?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Is there anyplace in the Bible where it says that people do not call upon the Saints in Heaven?

"Jerome

“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406])." (Keating, 2004)

St. Jerome translated the Bible into Latin so that the church could read it.

Work Cited

Keating, Karl; Catholic Answers; Intercession of the Saints
2020 Gillespie Way, El Cajon, CA 92020 USA
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm!

Indeed they desire nothing on Earth, ex: food, water, money, clothing. But it does not mean they do not desire the entire church to be with them. Do not take this passage out of context. How do you know that passage is scripture?

“Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.” ( Psalm 73:25 )

“Whom”, not “what”. Concentrate on Heaven.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm!

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

“Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.” ( Psalm 73:25 )

“Whom”, not “what”. Concentrate on Heaven.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Yes, and God desires us all to be saved, so do the Saints.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobiscvm!

Is there anyplace in the Bible where it says that people do not call upon the Saints in Heaven?

So we must believe everything about which there is not a negative commandment in the Bible?

The Bible teaches that prayer is to be addressed to God. So if you do other thing, then you are not being obedient to the Scripture.

By the way: the Bible says clearly that we must not call the dead.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm!

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

So we must believe everything about which there is not a negative commandment in the Bible?

The Bible teaches that prayer is to be addressed to God. So if you do other thing, then you are not being obedient to the Scripture.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Wherefore, I pray thee? Whoops!

When we ask Saints to pray for us, the prayer is going to God, through the Saints.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

“Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.” ( Psalm 73:25 )

“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

“Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.” ( Psalm 73:25 )

“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

I told you already, we are not to ask the dead for information. Only God knows the future. We do not ask for information, we ask them to present our petitions, do not take that passage out of context. Besides, they are alive in Christ, in his one body, not two bodies.

Around and around we go, getting dizzy yet?

P.S. How do you know that is scripture?

 

[bones_IV]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

“Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.” ( Psalm 73:25 )

“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Dear Yaqubos,
I’m sure that you mean well, in saying what you do about praying to saints is a sin. But its not the truth. Evidently many people have been misinformed about the Catholic faith. I’m sure that you are trying to save souls the best way you know how. Answer me this then, is the holy scriptures prayer? Yes it is. Do you not suppose that when you read the scriptures that you pray to God? Yep. In Peter’s profession of faith Jesus said “Blessed are you Simon bar-jona”. When you say the phrase that I just put in parantheses you are automatically praying to Peter! Something for you to think about. Here’s another one, when Mary was talking to the angel Gabriel she was praying to him!
Let us not remove the speck from each others eyes, let us pray for each other.

Padre Pio, “Don’t worry, work and pray.”

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I’d like to know from Scripture where it says that asking other Christians for their prayers, even those in heaven, is a sin. The charge seem quite unsupported to me.

On the contrary, St. John the Apostle speaks to angels and saints in the Book of Revelation. If that’s a sin, then he’s got some ‘splainin’ to do.

Also, we are shown by Scripture (the Psalms), that we are permitted to directly invoke all of God’s creation in praising the Lord, to include angels and all the heavenly ministers, without sin …

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21).

“Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

In other words, it is not a sin to invoke those in heaven to pray with us. They are just as much our Christian brethren as the fellow Christians we ask to pray with us here on earth.

Scripture, in fact, tells us that we have come (past tense) to the “city of the living God.” (Heb 12:22). We have come to God AND the angels AND the saints. It does not set up the false trichotomy that some Protestants pretend existed in the NT, that we have come to God OR the angels OR the saints.

Observe,

Heb 12:22-24:

you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel.

St. John the Apostle can and did converse with angels and saints when “caught up in the Spirit” without being charged with sin. So can I. It is in this way, in prayer, in the Spirit, that we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, to God AND angels AND saints, as if they were all in communion with one another, as one Body.

Some Protestants would have us believe that we have not approached the angels and saints, but only God in heaven. I disagree, as this is contrary to the ecclesiology of the NT writer of the Epistle of Hebrews.

These same Protestants would have us believe that for the first 1500 years of Christianity, everbody got it all wrong. Everybody. Even Protestants such as Martin Luther, who prayed the Rosary, got it wrong. Even those Protestants today who ask the saints for their aid, continue to get it wrong, along with the Catholics and the Orthodox. I don’t find their view to have Scriptural support, however. That’s probably why among “Bible only” Protestants, we still find many Christians who ask the angels and saints for their prayers.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

In fact, Protestant Pastor Rev. Charles Dickson, in his book *A Protestant Pastor Looks At Mary, *points out that the Rosary is a Christ-centered prayer devotion. He furthermore points out that many Protestants, whether knowingly or not, ask for Joseph and Mary’s help when they sing the hymn, *Angels We Have Heard on High. *The relevant verse goes: “See Him in a manger laid / Whom the choirs of angels praise / Mary, Joseph, lend your aid / While our hearts in love we raise.” I’m betting my Baptist friends don’t have a clue they are praying to Mary and Joseph when they sing this hymn.

 

[Psalm45_9]

itsjustdave1988:

In fact, Protestant Pastor Rev. Charles Dickson, in his book *A Protestant Pastor Looks At Mary, *points out that the Rosary is a Christ-centered prayer devotion. He furthermore points out that many Protestants, whether knowingly or not, ask for Joseph and Mary’s help when they sing the hymn, *Angels We Have Heard on High. *The relevant verse goes: “See Him in a manger laid / Whom the choirs of angels praise / Mary, Joseph, lend your aid / While our hearts in love we raise.” I’m betting my Baptist friends don’t have a clue they are praying to Mary and Joseph when they sing this hymn.

itsjustdave1988, look at my post back in window #66, it will help in fututre issues, God Bless.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

bones_IV:

Dear Yaqubos,
I’m sure that you mean well, in saying what you do about praying to saints is a sin. But its not the truth. Evidently many people have been misinformed about the Catholic faith. I’m sure that you are trying to save souls the best way you know how. Answer me this then, is the holy scriptures prayer? Yes it is. Do you not suppose that when you read the scriptures that you pray to God? Yep. In Peter’s profession of faith Jesus said “Blessed are you Simon bar-jona”. When you say the phrase that I just put in parantheses you are automatically praying to Peter! Something for you to think about. Here’s another one, when Mary was talking to the angel Gabriel she was praying to him!
Let us not remove the speck from each others eyes, let us pray for each other.

Padre Pio, “Don’t worry, work and pray.”

Here is another human vain philosophy…
The Scripture is God’s Word for us. God is talking to us in it, and not we to Him or to anybody else. We read it with prayer, but it is not prayer in itself.

Try to open your eyes, and instead of looking to human vain philosophies, look to what GOD SAYS.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[itsjustdave1988]

look to what GOD SAYS.

WE have. And He has yet to say that asking fellow Christians to pray for us is a sin, even if they are in heaven. Nowhere does Scripture prohibit this or call this a sin. Yet you seem to claim that it is. I can either listen to your fallible commentary on God’s Word or the the inerrant Word of God as my source of what is and is not sinful. I choose the latter.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Friends, you are trying to put in the Bible something that is NOT THERE…

itsjustdave1988:

I’d like to know from Scripture where it says that asking other Christians for their prayers, even those in heaven, is a sin. The charge seem quite unsupported to me.

It says we cannot call the dead. So the dead are not everywhere. So how can you talk to the dead?

On the contrary, St. John the Apostle speaks to angels and saints in the Book of Revelation. If that’s a sin, then he’s got some ‘splainin’ to do.

In Revelation, a REVELATION is given to John. So he SEES the angel, that angel COMES to him, and thus he can talk to him. Do you meet some angels these days?..

Also, we are shown by Scripture (the Psalms), that we are permitted to directly invoke all of God’s creation in praising the Lord, to include angels and all the heavenly ministers, without sin …

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21).

That’s the Word of God invoking them, not us.

]Scripture, in fact, tells us that we have come (past tense) to the “city of the living God.” (Heb 12:22). We have come to God AND the angels AND the saints. It does not set up the false trichotomy that some Protestants pretend existed in the NT, that we have come to God OR the angels OR the saints.

I can’t answer instead of the Protestants about what they say. As for me I believe that we have come to what that passage says. Because Scripture says clearly:

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus” ( Ephesians 2:4-6 )

But let me ask you: are you in heaven now? Do you see Jesus face to face?
As you are not in Heaven now body and spirit, so Ephesians 2:4-6 means you are seating in Heaven BY FAITH.
The same for Hebrews 12.

We see more about this in the next reply, if the Lord permits.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Continuing by His Grace…

Just let me put some comments on what you write:

When something cannot be clearly understood from a PRINCIPLE in the Bible, we need a clear statement to believe in it.
How did you think about talking to dead people??? Where did that idea come to you? There is nothing about that in the Bible. That is a human teaching.
Friends, in order that we may understand each other, please read today 1 Samuel 15. And see how Saul sinned when he didn’t do the Will of God as It is revealed by the Prophet. You see that Saul decided to do something very nice and good, and even his decision was according to the Law. For it is good to present sacrifices to the Lord. But God didn’t like that because Saul was not doing EXACTLY what He commanded.

As for Hebrews 12:23, let us examine it here:

First, the Apostle, while writing these lines, didn’t want to talk about talking to dead. He was talking about the contrast between Zion and Sinai, the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. And what he is saying is that the New one is a Covenant of PERFECTION, while the Old couldn’t give perfection. And as the Old Covenant was causing all that fear, so, he says, how much must we take care with a Covenant more perfect than the Old?

Let me quote that passage:

“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking” ( Hebrews 12:22-25 )

Now, a little study of these verses will help us avoid wrong conclusions and see clearly that the Apostle did not mean to tell you you can talk to the dead.
It is clear that the Apostle is using symbols and figurative speech. Ask yourself:

1. Did I really come to Mount Zion?
   As for me, I’ve never visited the Holy Land. I didn’t go to Mount Zion. And I believe you know this is a symbol of the New Covenant. So if any one concludes from this that Christians are citizens of Palestine, you will be the first one to tell him he is mistaking.
2. Did I really go to the heavenly Jerusalem? Or more clearly: Am I living in the heavenly Jerusalem?
   I guess you know that we are saved in hope. The Word says:

“And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?” ( Romans 8:23-24 )

In this passage we see that we are saved, but in hope. So we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, but in HOPE. The redemption of our bodies didn’t happen yet. The heavenly Jerusalem will one day descend from heaven, and we will have part in it:

Now, friends, all these are biblical doctrines. So we can’t build our doctrines without taking them in consideration.

So we must understand that everything said in this passage of Hebrews has happened in Christ, and every result of it is possessed IN HOPE, but it will be accomplished as a wholly actual fact when the Lamb returns.

This is how we must understand our coming to the perfected saints in heaven.
And by the way, according to this passage of Hebrews we came to the New Covenant, and to the Church. So we came to every living Christian on earth. In particular, we came even to those Christians who live now in China! So why don’t you conclude that you can talk to those who are in China IN PRAYER ( notice: I am not talking about material ways of talking, but prayer )?

Consider this well, and the Lord will be with you.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

In the following passage, notice how Paul says that he can do no good for the living after he dies:

“But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith” ( Philippians 1:22-25 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Talking to dead people, saint or not saint, is a sin.

In Love,

Yaqubos†

Nah! Contacting the dead to find out the future is a sin. Asking those alive in heaven to pray for you is just fine.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[clmowry]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

In the following passage, notice how Paul says that he can do no good for the living after he dies:

“But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith” ( Philippians 1:22-25 )

To say that “to remain in the flesh is more necessary for your sake” does no translate into “can do no good for the living after he dies”

This only indicates that he can do “more” for those on earth while still on earth, not that he can do nothing after death.

Chuck